Was your first flight done out of a populated area?

[Estevanb]

I live in South Florida and my next challenge in the amateur build process is to find a place for phase 1. The challenge starts with the waiting list for the hangar which varies from 2 to 7 years and includes airports that won't even take your name... Usually, the hangars that will eventually become available are expensive and located in populated areas. South Florida has limited space for growth and cities are all around airports.

The option of going to an airport in the middle of nowhere for phase 1 is close to none so I am starting this thread trying to find out from other members who had similar challenges.

Has anyone managed to receive operating limitations to safely execute a first phase 1 flight out of a populated area?

Out of which airport have you conducted your first Phase 1 flight?

Thanks!

 

[ty1295]

I did all my phase 1 out of KLOU, class D that is underneath a Charlie shelf. Many guys have, is not an issue. I think you are stuck on wording that really isn't an issue for us.

 

[Auburntsts]

I did all of my Phase I flying out of Manassas VA (KHEF) under the DC Bravo but in the DC SFRA. No issues whatsoever.

 

[rleffler]

I live in South Florida and my next challenge in the amateur build process is to find a place for phase 1. The challenge starts with the waiting list for the hangar which varies from 2 to 7 years and includes airports that won't even take your name... Usually, the hangars that will eventually become available are expensive and located in populated areas. South Florida has limited space for growth and cities are all around airports.

The option of going to an airport in the middle of nowhere for phase 1 is close to none so I am starting this thread trying to find out from other members who had similar challenges.

Has anyone managed to receive operating limitations to safely execute a first phase 1 flight out of a populated area?

Out of which airport have you conducted your first Phase 1 flight?

Thanks!

in my area, two airports are land locked and will usually not allow Phase 1 operations . I am aware of only one exception, but that was for the first flight to another airport and they couldn’t return until Phase 2.

my airport only has populated areas east of the airport. on my first flight, the mechanical fuel pump was not functional as I turned crosswind over the downtown area, with no good landing options. Fortunately, turning on the electric fuel pump resolved the fuel pressure issue. Yes, I know that it should have been turned on already. I landed safely without any incident. The fuel pump diaphram failed on a brand new engine.

My point, is that there is a reason to ensure you have options for off airport landings. FSDO or your DAR is going to want to see how you will handle emergencies at any point while you’re over populated areas. When you discuss it with them, make sure that you have a solid plan. Btw, if I had taken off the other direction, I would have been over a quarry which wouldn’t have been much better. It’s all about risk management and you don’t want to put Murphy in charge of those decisions.

 

[Estevanb]

I did all my phase 1 out of KLOU, class D that is underneath a Charlie shelf. Many guys have, is not an issue. I think you are stuck on wording that really isn't an issue for us.

Thanks for the reply Jeff, would you be able to share a copy of the language used on your operating limitations?

 

[Estevanb]

I did all of my Phase I flying out of Manassas VA (KHEF) under the DC Bravo but in the DC SFRA. No issues whatsoever.

Thanks for the reply Todd, would you be able to share a copy of the language used on your operating limitations?

 

[Estevanb]

in my area, two airports are land locked and will usually not allow Phase 1 operations . I am aware of only one exception, but that was for the first flight to another airport and they couldn’t return until Phase 2.

my airport only has populated areas east of the airport. on my first flight, the mechanical fuel pump was not functional as I turned crosswind over the downtown area, with no good landing options. Fortunately, turning on the electric fuel pump resolved the fuel pressure issue. Yes, I know that it should have been turned on already. I landed safely without any incident. The fuel pump diaphram failed on a brand new engine.

My point, is that there is a reason to ensure you have options for off airport landings. FSDO or your DAR is going to want to see how you will handle emergencies at any point while you’re over populated areas. When you discuss it with them, make sure that you have a solid plan. Btw, if I had taken off the other direction, I would have been over a quarry which wouldn’t have been much better. It’s all about risk management and you don’t want to put Murphy in charge of those decisions.

Hi Bob,

I agree with you, in fact, the DAR came to my house to discuss the whole plan and even suggested the idea of making only 1 flight out and not returning until phase 2, which I am fine with. My emergency plan consisted of the first flight making use of only 1 runway option which has a huge golf field ahead as well as a huge area occupied by a municipal landfill.

Having said that, I do have off-airport landing areas and the DAR believes it can be executed safely. But, talking to his office, they've got caught on legal verbiage. So I am trying to see what others did in similar situation to suggest them the language for the operating limitations.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[Auburntsts]

Thanks for the reply Todd, would you be able to share a copy of the language used on your operating limitations?

So my OPLIM wording was straight out the 8130 version that was in effect in 2015. I've also attached copy of my Program letter:

1. No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose of meeting the requirements of§ 9 I .3 l 9(b) during phase I
flight testing, and for recreation and education after meeting these requirements as stated in the program letter (required
by § 21.193) for this aircraft. ln addition, this aircraft must be operated in accordance with the applicable air traffic and
general operating rules of part 9 I and all additional limitations herein prescribed under the provisions of § 91.3 I 9(i).
These operating limitations are a part of FAA Form 8 I 30-7, and are to be carried in the aircraft at all times and be
available to the pilot in command of the aircraft.
Phase I Assigned Flight Test Area
2. During phase I flight testing to meet the requirements of§ 91.3 I 9(b ), all flights must be conducted within the
geographical area described as follows:
3. This aircraft must be operated for at least 40 hours in the assigned geographic area.
4. All test flights, at a minimum, must be conducted under day VFR only. Guidance concerning the scope and detail oftest
flights can be found in AC 90-89. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight
test area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § 9 l .3 l 9(b ). Compliance
with § 9 I .319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: "I certify
that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal
range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or
design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the·
flight-testing: speeds Vso ---~ Vx _ ___ , and Vy ___ ~ and the weight ____ and CG location
___ a!_ which they were obtained."
5. Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over densely populated areas or in congested airways.
«J certify this aircraft has met the requirements of Phase I Operating Limitations, and acknowledge thaf the flight test
area restrictions no longer apply."
Date: Signature, Pilot/Registered Owner

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

I'm under the MSP Class B and I couldn't do anything but fly out of KSGS . I couldn't come back until after the 40 hours. The DAR gave me a corridor to the Mississippi River and then one to Airlake Airport, which is south of KMSP and also a reliever airport. Stein Bruch graciously agreed to give me some hangar space there. But I still had to get a corridor down to a test area. It was a pain in the neck to drive down every day but was manageable.

Unfortunately, what almost every other RVer at my airport did was ignore the DAR's test area on their airworthiness certificate. They might go over to Wisconsin (there's nothing in Wisconsin but cows and Packers fans) to do some testing, but then they'd fly back to home base afterwards in violation of their instruction. They were prepared to say that the oil temperature was off the charts and they had to return for an emergency.

I really hated that because it only takes one to ruin it for everyone in the country.

 

[AlpineYoda]

I built mine in a hangar at Boulder Municipal, which is on the edge of town, and unless I wanted to take it apart and truck it somewhere else, I had no choice but to do my first flight there. If you take off on 26, you will immediately fly over dense housing. Runway 8 has much less, but there are a number of ponds and marshes that would be impossible to land on. My first flight co-pilot and I studied some charts and satellite photos and came up with a ditch plan - at 200 feet, land there. At 500, land there. At 1000+, impossible turn is possible. There were a few roads and fields we identified in advance. And the first flight was just pattern laps at 3000 feet AGL, always within glide distance.

 

[Estevanb]

I built mine in a hangar at Boulder Municipal, which is on the edge of town, and unless I wanted to take it apart and truck it somewhere else, I had no choice but to do my first flight there. If you take off on 26, you will immediately fly over dense housing. Runway 8 has much less, but there are a number of ponds and marshes that would be impossible to land on. My first flight co-pilot and I studied some charts and satellite photos and came up with a ditch plan - at 200 feet, land there. At 500, land there. At 1000+, impossible turn is possible. There were a few roads and fields we identified in advance. And the first flight was just pattern laps at 3000 feet AGL, always within glide distance.

Thank you AlpineYoda, this looks really close to my current situation. Would you mind sharing a copy of the program letter, or operation limitations you received from DAR? Thank you very much!

 

[AlpineYoda]

I'm not at home right now - on a business trip. As I recall, the operating limitations were very broad. I'm in Colorado and my area was defined as the 40th parallel on the south side, the front range of the rockies on the west, the wyoming border, and the eastern border of Colorado, excluding the Denver airport Class B. There is a Class D towered field just south of the 40th that was added to the above area since it has 10,000 foot runways and fire trucks. There was no language about flight over populated areas.

 

[PilotjohnS]

I had to truck mine to a country airfield with strawberry fields all around. it was 45 min away. So I completed the 40 hours, made sure it was safe to fly, and brought it back, then proceeded to fix all the little things that needed fixing discovered during phase 1. By 60 hours, the engine was broken in and I did the final performance testing.

It would have been nice to fix the little things as they came up during the phase 1, but being so far from home, it just wasn't practical.

 

[Thermos]

I did my first flight and Phase 1 from the Nashua, NH airport (ASH) just outside the Boston Mode C veil and right on the edge of Manchester NH Class C airspace. The area around Nashua would be considered a "densely populated area" by the FAA's vague definition, but my DAR was able to get me a wedge of airspace from ASH to the rest of my Phase 1 area so I could do my flying from there. I had a carve-out for the Manchester Class C.

 

[rv6n6r]

Things may have changed since I flew my Phase 1 many years ago but I do know that thousands of E-ABs around here have flown their phase 1s out of KHIO, KUAO (Van's home base), and other airports with a 50nm circle that includes the entire Portland metro area plus suburban communities and most of PDX Class C. But also much open space so we just thread the needle and keep away from all that. The OpLims were clear enough about staying away from the densely populated areas within the circle, and my DAR had no additional restrictions.

 

[Roadjunkie1]

As I recall, the operating limitations were very broad. I'm in Colorado and my area was defined as the 40th parallel on the south side, the front range of the rockies on the west, the wyoming border, and the eastern border of Colorado, excluding the Denver airport Class B. There is a Class D towered field just south of the 40th that was added to the above area since it has 10,000 foot runways and fire trucks. There was no language about flight over populated areas.

When my Phase 1 started in 1997, there weren't that many high-performance home-built......um......excuse me......E-ABs being built and flown. One would hear of an RV or GlasAir with a 200mph cruise assigned a 25 mile area as that is what the DARs at the time were used to. For your FlyBaby, that was great. But........

My DAR recognized how limited that might be and gave me basically the NE corner of Colorado as a designated area. I could not go into Wyoming or Nebraska/Kansas and had to avoid Class C and D airspace but had an area the size of Rhode Island in which to do my flight testing. Sparsely populated with thousands of acres of landing fields. My first flights were done close to home field and broadened as the test cards were completed. It was nice to have 180+ miles to the NE corner of Colorado to do high-speed cruise testing. Did I mention my DAR was pretty smart?

 

[Estevanb]

I had to truck mine to a country airfield with strawberry fields all around. it was 45 min away. So I completed the 40 hours, made sure it was safe to fly, and brought it back, then proceeded to fix all the little things that needed fixing discovered during phase 1. By 60 hours, the engine was broken in and I did the final performance testing.

It would have been nice to fix the little things as they came up during the phase 1, but being so far from home, it just wasn't practical.

did you move the plane from one airport to the other? did you remove the wings ?

 

[PilotjohnS]

did you move the plane from one airport to the other? did you remove the wings ?

I had the DAR inspect at my build site using hardware spar bolts, but showed him the real bolts that would be installed. Then removed wings and tail, and trucked to Phase 1 airport. Then re-assembled, inspected by another A&P, and did first flight and phase 1. After phase 1 and deeming plane was safe, flew it back to home airport.

 

[Draker]

The phase 1 test area doc I submitted to my DAR said "Marked region is bounded by <list of airports>, remaining clear of congested areas and Bravo and Charlie airspaces." The relevant parts of the operating limitations I got back were:

"The pilot in command must comply with § 91.305 at all times." (which covers the sparsely populated areas topic)

and

"This aircraft must be operated for at least 40 hours with at least 10 takeoffs and landings in this geographical area: Region bounded by the following points, <list of airports>.."

That's it. I did three of my four first flights directly over the Livermore airport, and for one of them I headed northeast, remaining clear of the populated areas. After that I re-based the airplane out in the boonies where there was no question about whether the area was sparsely populated or not.

 

[Estevanb]

I had the DAR inspect at my build site using hardware spar bolts, but showed him the real bolts that would be installed. Then removed wings and tail, and trucked to Phase 1 airport. Then re-assembled, inspected by another A&P, and did first flight and phase 1. After phase 1 and deeming plane was safe, flew it back to home airport.

Thank you! I think this might be a good option for me at this point.

 

[Estevanb]

I had the DAR inspect at my build site using hardware spar bolts, but showed him the real bolts that would be installed. Then removed wings and tail, and trucked to Phase 1 airport. Then re-assembled, inspected by another A&P, and did first flight and phase 1. After phase 1 and deeming plane was safe, flew it back to home airport.

John, how much of a hassle was it to remove wings and then reinstall them? It sounds like a nasty job because of the size of the bolts, tolerance and risk of damage to the spar... In your opinion, was I worth the work, vs having to finish the build on an airport far from your desired build site?

 

[PilotjohnS]

John, how much of a hassle was it to remove wings and then reinstall them? It sounds like a nasty job because of the size of the bolts, tolerance and risk of damage to the spar... In your opinion, was I worth the work, vs having to finish the build on an airport far from your desired build site?

Well, to tell you the truth, I had the wings on and off 3 times during the build. I think twice for wiring issues, and once to deburr after rear spar drilling. With the hardware store bolts, installing and removing the bolts was fairly easy. And I made a rolling wing cradle to line up the wings prior to inserting into fuselage. Once i got to my Phase 1 airport, i had to install the flight bolts. So dry ice and a big hammer. It is funny, when i was installing the flight wing bolts for the final (and only) time, my DAR was at the hangar inspecting another plane; i waited for him to leave before walling on the bolts with a rubber mallet.