Upgrading to IFR

[videobobk]

Situation: thinking of going for my IR. Need to upgrade my panel first. Goals would be do do this as economically as possible and still end up with a reasonably competent package. I NEVER plan on doing heavy IMC fllying, but have seen too many opportunities for VFR on top with IFR letdowns go by. Besides, I need to learn this stuff and be legal, also.

I have (in the 6-pack) ASI, Dynon D-10A, Alt, Trio AP, Narco 111, and VSI. Have transponder w/mode C, XCOM 760 radio, AFS 2500 engine monitor, Trio alt hold II and AvMapIV GPS.

The Narco will go. ASI, atl and VSI are top-of-the line TSO'd stuff. What do I need, and why? I will admit that a 430 sounds interesting, but seems so expensive...

Bob Kelly

 

[gbrasch]

430

I just finished my second instrument rating in a helicopter using a 430. If you go to the Garmin website, you can download a 430 simulator and see for yourself what it can do, and make a personal decision if it is worth it or not. I found it to be an amazing device to work with doing IFR, after you get used to it. Hope this helps.

 

[frankh]

Instrument flying is not cheap

Just keeping the airplane IFR legal and yourself competent (note I said competent not current) with the gas required is an eye opener.

For a start P-S check $300 to 400 every 2 years. Plates subscription...$100 or so for the local area (I like the new videobook idea)

430W database $400 or so every year...i split a subcription with my buddy and do not do GPS approaches

I fly 3 approaches a month as I find that a comfortable minimum...so 1.5 hours of flying.

So yeah, even if you don't have a 430W its somewhat spendy.

Now what do you really need?..Well a SL 30 radio and a Nav head is about the reasonable minimum assuming there is an ILS at your local airport or wherever you want to go and will allow you to get down to 200ft above the surface.

This option has the advantage of no database subscriptions.

You could use a handheld GPS for in flight awareness...Typicaaly means you can use your handheld for all en-route flying...Not quite legal but you are allowed to use it to cross check your VOR flying.

The only other point is that at some point the FAA will get rid of VOR's then its GPS all the way.

As to your equipment the minimum you will require in an RV is an Autopilot, a wing leveller should be considered mandatory, altitude hold considered a huge stress reliever and a fuly couple A/P as almost an auto land feature..

Hope that helps

Are you planning on training in the RV?..I did...It was a nightmare for the first 10 hours..

Frank

 

[frankh]

And think about backups

What happens when your Dynon goes "Phut!" and your in a cloud?


The Trutrak A/Ps can come with a turn coordinator head which makes a very good artificial horizon...Your autopilot can literally save your life in this scenario.

Frank

 

[videobobk]

Thanks, Glenn, think I'll download the 430 demo. That could be helpful.

Frank, prices are most helpful, although I think the P/S check is about half that here. Didn't know the Garmin updates were that much, but I should have known...

I have done a little "partial panel" practice without the Dynon and at least can keep the shiny side up using the turn coordinator (built into the Trio.) Not much fun, however. I have done some work on a simulator, and will probably do a part of required training and currency work on it. Actually I own part interest in one. Love my A/P and with the GPS vertical navigation I would think it could get me out of a jam, although I NEVER plan to test that theory. Yes, I have practiced it in VFR. The SL30 sounds like a nice minimum. Add the WAAS GPS later. Kinda my thoughts, but I'm really open to ideas.

Thanks again. Others?

Bob

 

[beattiema]

"Light IFR" is that like being a little bit pregnant ?

 

[John Clark]

Light, as in not heavy

"Light IFR" is that like being a little bit pregnant ?

No, actually it is the difference between flying a departure through 500 feet of fog on a calm Southern California morning and shooting a minimums approach in blowing snow in Wisconsin. Light IFR is knowing your limitations.

John Clark ATP, CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[frankh]

If you think your gonna die

Its not light IFR...

Note, I pretty much always think I'm gonna die...

Frank

 

[Sam Buchanan]

No, actually it is the difference between flying a departure through 500 feet of fog on a calm Southern California morning and shooting a minimums approach in blowing snow in Wisconsin. Light IFR is knowing your limitations.

John Clark ATP, CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Its not light IFR...

Note, I pretty much always think I'm gonna die...

Frank

Yep, if you're departing through 500' of fog when your flight instruments go belly up, or the engine hiccups, or your........etc........ it is then "heavy IFR".

IFR is IFR is IFR.............and if you blow it......you can die. I don't believe in "light" IFR...we are either proficient and equipped for any IFR (icing conditions excepted) or we best stay out of clouds.

 

[John Clark]

IFR

Yep, if you're departing through 500' of fog when your flight instruments go belly up, or the engine hiccups, or your........etc........ it is then "heavy IFR".

IFR is IFR is IFR.............and if you blow it......you can die. I don't believe in "light" IFR...we are either proficient and equipped for any IFR (icing conditions excepted) or we best stay out of clouds.

Sam, I wasn't promoting a lower level of currency or proficiency. "Light" in my mind is no ice, weather well above minimums in case you do need to return to the departure airport, and a number of "ways out." Hard IFR is what I did for a living, and would only do it in something with multiple engines (running on Jet-A,) radar, and a competent first officer. Hard and light is probably poor terminology, the bottom line is knowing your capabilities and limitations.

John Clark ATP, CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
FAAST Team Member
KSBA

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Sam, I wasn't promoting a lower level of currency or proficiency. "Light" in my mind is no ice, weather well above minimums in case you do need to return to the departure airport, and a number of "ways out." Hard IFR is what I did for a living, and would only do it in something with multiple engines (running on Jet-A,) radar, and a competent first officer. Hard and light is probably poor terminology, the bottom line is knowing your capabilities and limitations.

With that, John, I agree.

Your credentials (which far exceed mine) indicate you know precisely of what you speak. I do cringe, however, when I hear low-time RVers talking about intentions of flying "light IFR" in their planes.

 

[Ironflight]

Well I agree with BOTH of you fellows....

I do believe in the term "lite" IFR - applied when you have tons of alternatives, lots of margin, and no questions whatsoever as to the successful outcome of the mission.

However....in order to do that, and be assured of a successful conclusion, you need to have lots of experience (in judging weather and other conditions) and currency (in handling the airplane). I think that novice IFR pilots need to go into every flight assuming that it can get "heavy". And as you gain experience, you become a better judge when the flight will be simple, or when it is too challenging for the equipment that you are currently flying....

Paul

 

[JHines]

<SNIP>

The Narco will go. ASI, atl and VSI are top-of-the line TSO'd stuff. What do I need, and why? I will admit that a 430 sounds interesting, but seems so expensive...

Bob Kelly

If you'll study a set of approach plates carefully, I think you will find that you really need both ADF and DME capability to operate under IFR adequately. For example, many ILS approaches use a LOM as the IAF.

Also, lots of airports are moving to GPS only approaches. So my opinion is the biggest bang for the buck is an IFR GPS unit. It gives you GPS plus ADF and DME all in one unit. You'll need the receiver, antenna, external CDI and annunciator.

This doesn't necessarily require a $10K Garmin 430. Although not glamorous, there are several models of panel-mount IFR GPS units that are just that - a GPS without any bells or whistles. For example, a King KLN 89B or 94B. I think these units can be had used for around $2K.

 

[videobobk]

Thanks, Jonathon, that's the sort of thing I need. I want to know what there is out there that will work for my mission. And yes, Paul, we do have to weigh our abilities and those of our aircraft. There are plenty of VFR days I stay on the ground, realizing that marginal can go either way. Had a couple experiences that I learned from (haven't we all?) And I know that lite/heavy is a relative thing. I follow Paul's definition of "lite." I just need to increase my skills while keeping my experience in perspective. Just don't want to spend more than I need to...

I welcome any other ideas. Added question--is one radio enough (with a handheld backup?)

Bob

 

[JHines]

I assume you mean one comm radio? That is doable, but I would want a flip-flop display to minimize the workload.

In most instances you would want 2 nav radios (or the equivalent), for example for identifying intersections. Also, some approaches can have a high workload on the missed approach segment because they use an intersection as the hold, and sometimes the hold is best navigated from a VOR that is not the same VOR/LOC/ILS as the approach. In a case like that if you only have 1 nav radio you are going to be quickly switching frequencies and spinning CDI dials, whereas if you have 2 nav units you simply set up the hold on the second unit and transition to it when needed.

A "traditional" route would be 2 nav/comm units, obviously giving you 2 comm radios by default.

A traditional "well-appointed" IFR panel might look like this:

(1) audio panel / marker beacon
(2) #1 nav/comm receiver (VOR/LOC) w/glideslope receiver, plus a coupled CDI w/glideslope needle
(3) #2 nav/comm recevier (VOR/LOC), plus a coupled CDI
(4) IFR GPS (or in the past ADF/DME/LORAN/RNAV)
(5) transponder

Now, a lot of people do this:

(1) audio panel / marker beacon
(2) G430 or equivalent = IFR GPS and a nav/comm receiver (VOR/LOC), plus a coupled CDI w/glideslope needle
(3) #2 nav/comm receiver (VOR/LOC), plus a coupled CDI
(4) transponder