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PMags

Chippster1

Active Member
Has anyone had any experience with the PMag?
I hear mixed things.
I have been running a light speed ignition with a slick magneto and am thinking of replacing the slick with the PMag
Some say it won’t make a difference if I already have the lightspeed
Others have said Pmags have problems.
I invite all who have experience with the Pmag to share their thoughts

Ted Chipps
RV10 N498EC
 
Love my pair of E-Mags. May not see a difference mixing setup. The PMags can be timed in less than a few minutes. And $2 NGK plugs you can toss at annual, even though they look good as the day you installed them. Brad is a great resource at E-Mag.

Sorry about the pic rotation. It was correct before upload.
 

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I have dual Pmags (114 series) and love them. They just work. Far fewer moving parts. The teething pains (113 series) were solved long ago. Would do it again in a heartbeat.

Bevan
 
There were some issues in the early days for the 6 cylinder Pmag. I received mine right after OSH three years ago and they’ve worked as advertised. I’ve had no issues to date. I do have friends that have had some issues, but most of them were early adopters. I think the issues are behind us now.
 
I have two new in the box six cylinder pMags on the shelf. My problem is after 31 month I still do not have my engine from Thunderbolt.

I helped the owner of my first RV-10 install this pMag ~3 years ago. It made a measurable improvement in engine start and fuel economy. My first build (RV-8A) has been running dual pMags for ~18 years. The current ride (RV-8) started out life with dual pMags April 2020. Both installs have been flawless.

Carl
 
Has anyone had any experience with the PMag?
I hear mixed things.
I have been running a light speed ignition with a slick magneto and am thinking of replacing the slick with the PMag
Some say it won’t make a difference if I already have the lightspeed
Others have said Pmags have problems.
I invite all who have experience with the Pmag to share their thoughts

Ted Chipps
RV10 N498EC

I had a Slick impulse mag and a Plasma III from the start. When Slick expanded their service bulletin to replace the plastic distributor gear a couple of years ago I had about 350 hours on the mag so I decided to install an EMag in its place. 200 hours and 2 condition inspections later I've had zero issues. Like others have mentioned, timing the mag is about as easy as it gets. When/if my Plasma III dies I'll replace it with an EMag just for the simplicity of installation. I've always run LOP, before the swap I was burning 8.3 GPH, 23/2300, 170 knots, 7k ft, after the swap, small improvement to 8.2 GPH. Like others have mentioned, your performance won't change a whole lot from your current setup but you get to use automotive plugs (have you priced aviation plugs lately?) and save about 3 lbs of weight. The only weak point on EMags, IMHO, is the wiring harness and connector. Just make sure you provide good support for it and you'll have zero issues. Cold starts now, maybe half a blade turn, hot starts, maybe a full revolution. Customer support, outstanding. YMMV ;)
 
I had dual PMags installed when I had my engine tear down / rebuild inspection about nine months ago. Unfortunately I have had to send both PMags back to EMag because I couldn’t get them to enter “set mode” for re-timing. One return to EMag was for a definite problem with them replacing the bearing under warranty. The second return was most likely user error because they couldn’t find any fault with the PMag. In both cases turn around time was quick and I only paid for shipping.

Their customer support is great. The performance improvement I’m seeing is significant. Last week I flew LOP at 150 kts true at 7.4 gph. Big difference from the 8.2 gph with slicks. Much smoother engine idle, seems like shorter TO roll, and overall better performance. I’m glad I converted to PMags.
 
Keep in mind the 4 cylinder (P114) and 6 cylinder (200 series) are very different animals. The 6 cylinder design is quite different and much newer - so less reliability data available.
 
Satisfied customer

I was an early adopter, with an EMag on the right, magneto left. Some teething pains and a few times back to the factory (including upgrading it to a P version) but eventually things got sorted out. That's been about 1000 hours, and more recently (about 50 hrs ago) my left Bendix magneto started giving me grief shortly after being serviced, so rather than keep messing with it I replaced it with a 114 series PMag, and am now running dual PMags.

I'm pretty happy with them and I especially like being able to use auto plugs after being a victim of the Champion fine wire "forever" aviation plug debacle - I had eight of those suckers that all failed, an expensive exercise, that.

One thing that does still bug me is the automotive snap-fit connectors on the harnesses. It seems to me there should be a better way to secure those. That said, they've never caused a problem.
 
I just installed my PMAG (6 cylinder Lycoming version) and have not flown it yet (weather sucks here :( )
Installation process is very simple and straightforward.
Engine start on PMAG took not even a full starter spin - that surprisingly nice ;)
It looks like internal generator (power source) does not work below 800-900RPM, again this should not be a problem in flight but I thought that PMAG generator would cover full range of engine RPMs.
Cant wait to fly it and check the performance and fuel consumption.
 
Has anyone had any experience with the PMag?
I hear mixed things.
I have been running a light speed ignition with a slick magneto and am thinking of replacing the slick with the PMag
Some say it won’t make a difference if I already have the lightspeed
Others have said Pmags have problems.
I invite all who have experience with the Pmag to share their thoughts

Ted Chipps
RV10 N498EC


SDS or stick with slicks......I have had plenty of experience now with many of both. As for PMAGS, I have had way too many customer failures especially the 6 cylinder. Lightspeed are not much better. One just destroyed a IO390, just because it went haywire.

There is no performance gain despite what the hype is. If you buy any electronic dial out 2-3 degrees (go past TDC) or with SDS just set it at 22 degrees across the range and 25 when LOP.

Some might be taken aback by these blunt comments but I have to to tell it like it is.
 
SDS or stick with slicks......I have had plenty of experience now with many of both. As for PMAGS, I have had way too many customer failures especially the 6 cylinder. ...
Some might be taken aback by these blunt comments but I have to to tell it like it is.

David, what kinds of failures are you seeing?
 
David, what kinds of failures are you seeing?

Good question. Some have been failure to operate. Some have been random timing. I am reluctant to post all the details as this forum jumps on posts where suppliers and their failings are exposed, and then the thread disappears.

I will say that Ross at SDS knows his stuff, builds quality gear. I have so far not seen one problem in a properly installed SDS system.

Brad the Pmag guy, at least he will support his customers, I had three 6C Mags fail all about 10-13 hours apart. I never found out what the actual failures were. This was replacing one of two LS ignitions. In the end the owner bought two slicks. There have been off the top of my head 6-8 or maybe more 4C pmags do strange things, mostly losing timing reference. Of course there are many more who have not had problems, or not that I hear about.

I have been helping a fellow down here this year that has a destroyed IO390 as a result of a dual LS going nuts on one ignition. Advanced possibly randomly from who knows where to 40-60 degrees and massive rise in CHT on all 4 cylinders. The owner repeated the exercise as he didn't believe it. Anyway CHTs recorded in the high 500's and one up to 630dF. :eek: The only component in the engine, and I have the photos, that is reusable is the camshaft. The ignition manufacturer when asked about fixing the ignitions (before we pulled the engine and realised how bad it was) was ignoring the data (EMS and borescope) and was so dismissive and condescending even a hard-*** like me was stunned.

For clarity I have had a coil in a Slick let its guts out, crossing Bass Straits (Tasmania to the mainland - map that) so they too can fail. But as a failure per unit x hour rate, old Slicks trump the others (excluding SDS).

For full disclosure - I have no connection, no interest and no reason to support any EI supplier at all. My suggestion of SDS over a magneto is simply this. If you really want EI this is the best option by far but do realise that EI timing must be set 2-3 degrees less than the old mag number and do not use advance beyond 3-4 degrees when LOP. It helps LOP at high altitude a little. There is no HP benefit.

I do have a lot of time on the GAMI dyno and have watched hours of timing changes with real data showing the pressure traces, inducing detonation and killing it. The George Braly / John Deakin discussions over the last 10-15 years have taught me so much. I am just trying to relay what is real in simple terms.

I hope this helps.


PS: I will write up a report and photos of the IO390 episode, once the owner gets it sorted and replaced. And I find time to do it properly. There was a hidden latent secondary problem planted by a mistake of a very famous engine shop (and they are being co-operative) that was slowly destroying this engine also, but the preignition was the killer.
 
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...

I will say that Ross at SDS knows his stuff, builds quality gear. I have so far not seen one problem in a properly installed SDS system.

Brad the Pmag guy, at least he will support his customers, I had three 6C Mags fail all about 10-13 hours apart. I never found out what the actual failures were. This was replacing one of two LS ignitions. In the end the owner bought two slicks. There have been off the top of my head 6-8 or maybe more 4C pmags do strange things, mostly losing timing reference. Of course there are many more who have not had problems, or not that I hear about.

...

I hope this helps.

...
Thanks David. Fully agree that SDS looks like a solid solution, and certainly one that people should strongly consider.

It would have been interesting to find out what caused the other pmags to fail so we can understand how to avoid a repeat. I have dual pmags with the EICommander to monitor them, and so far they have been rock solid. I confess that I do spend time looking at the data coming out of the pmags and displayed on the little screen, and it's interesting.

EICommander - HB-YMM - 2023-02-13 - Spain.png
 
SNIP…
I have been helping a fellow down here this year that has a destroyed IO390 as a result of a dual LS going nuts on one ignition. Advanced possibly randomly from who knows where to 40-60 degrees and massive rise in CHT on all 4 cylinders. The owner repeated the exercise as he didn't believe it. Anyway CHTs recorded in the high 500's and one up to 630dF.

Yep - there was a new RV with dual LightSpeed ignitions that had 500 degree CHTs from day one - even at full rich mixture.

We finally convinced the owner to put a light on the engine. Both ignitions were firing at 40+ degree BTDC, regardless of vacuum line attached or not attached. This was what was needed to convince Klaus that the boxes were bad. He repaired them (on the owner’s dime) and the problem was fixed. I failed to convince the owner to just install pMags.

Lessened learned again - always verify LightSpeed timing with a light, at least following the initial install.

20+ years flying behind pMags and I would not consider any other option.

Reminder - no electronic ignition or electronic fuel injection will yield more HP out of a Lycoming than stock Mags and mechanical fuel injection at full power. The pMags shine by providing timing advance at altitude to gain fuel economy when flying LOP with well balanced injectors. This gain can be quantified. I recommend always installing with the jumper in to cap timing advance at 9 degrees over base timing.

Carl
 
Thanks David. Fully agree that SDS looks like a solid solution, and certainly one that people should strongly consider.

It would have been interesting to find out what caused the other pmags to fail so we can understand how to avoid a repeat. I have dual pmags with the EICommander to monitor them, and so far they have been rock solid. I confess that I do spend time looking at the data coming out of the pmags and displayed on the little screen, and it's interesting.

View attachment 52545

I've been a 4 cyl Pmag user since just after they became available. Have also used Bendix, Slick and Jeff Rose. I've experienced a couple Pmag failures. Not 100% sure of the root cause, but believe I had coil failure(s), quality control (not locking housing fasteners), and a bearing failure. These were all handled free of charge, but one stranded me for a few days awaiting an overnight shipment of a loaner unit.

My only complaint would have been that when I was having problems, the units should have received a complete inspection and deeper repairs at the time they were in for service. I do believe subsequent failures would likely have been caught. That said, the two units I have in service now have worked flawlessly the last 6-8 years (6-800 hours). One positive with the Pmag is the lack of need for a remote timing sensor. Just something else to have to install and possibly fail. But on the other side of the coin, the Pmag has rotating components and they can and do fail. In flight adjustable timing would be very nice. I'll be steering hard to this option in my next build.

These issues have all been covered many times previously in the archives.
 
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Rock Auto when they have a sale will come down to $1.75.

Thanks for the tip! I just bough the last 7 at Rock Auto for $1.15 each. They say it's a supplier closeout, so I hope that doesn't mean they are going away again.
 
One thing to remember when reading anecdotal experiences with ANY new(ish) device is the vintage of the equipment that failed. Like any new design, PMags had growing pains in the early days (as did Light speed, EFISS, SDS….we learn by gaining hours and fixing problems!), so early units have more failures, while (if the product matures), later units are more reliable.

So when someone says “I’ve had these failures in a PMag”, you have to ask if those were in the early (fifteeen-year-ago production) or in units produced last year. I shred away from anything new that is required to keep me in teh air, and let the PMags mature for ten years before I started buying and using them. U now have eight of them in four airplanes, and have had no issues.

Of course, those are all the four-cylinder units - the six-banger PMags are still in their earlier years, but I am lookign forward to using those as they prove reliable!
 
Made a trip up to the Airpark (FFZ to AZ82) last week and the engine ran like a Bernina. Tried to come home Wed and right mag was dead during run up check. Taxied back and got the old Bendix off and drove the cabin car home. Mag shop says the coil was drawing 17K ohms and the points were fried and even they said that it wasn't cost effective to fix.
Took a crowbar to my wallet and bought a Pmag today.
Long discussion with Brad about past issues and a lot were with EarthX batteries (which I have). Running a direct wire from the battery to the pmag rather than piggybacking off the starter cable fixed the issue. Planning on writing up the conversion process and comparison results.
 
Made a trip up to the Airpark (FFZ to AZ82) last week and the engine ran like a Bernina. Tried to come home Wed and right mag was dead during run up check. Taxied back and got the old Bendix off and drove the cabin car home. Mag shop says the coil was drawing 17K ohms and the points were fried and even they said that it wasn't cost effective to fix.
Took a crowbar to my wallet and bought a Pmag today.
Long discussion with Brad about past issues and a lot were with EarthX batteries (which I have). Running a direct wire from the battery to the pmag rather than piggybacking off the starter cable fixed the issue. Planning on writing up the conversion process and comparison results.

It would be interesting to read about the things that Brad has seen that caused problems with some of his customers. Very often instruction manuals say "do it this way" but I think they might get more compliance if they say "do it this way because others have done it differently, and here's what happened..."

In your example, I'm not quite able to visualize the wiring change that you did to make it work better. No need to reply here, I'll stand by for the article! :)
 
Made a trip up to the Airpark (FFZ to AZ82) last week and the engine ran like a Bernina. Tried to come home Wed and right mag was dead during run up check. Taxied back and got the old Bendix off and drove the cabin car home. Mag shop says the coil was drawing 17K ohms and the points were fried and even they said that it wasn't cost effective to fix.
Took a crowbar to my wallet and bought a Pmag today.
Long discussion with Brad about past issues and a lot were with EarthX batteries (which I have). Running a direct wire from the battery to the pmag rather than piggybacking off the starter cable fixed the issue. Planning on writing up the conversion process and comparison results.

Anyone that thinks a PMAG or any other electronic device for that matter will never fail is living in a fantasy world.
Mag shops, spare mags etc. are everywhere, what would have been the plan if you had a failed PMAG instead of a mag?

I have found/seen that many mag failures were/are simply due to people not performing the recommended maintenance on them, just running them till they fail.

The SUREFLY and CPS/SDI soulutions are another alternative but come with the same risk, failure can ground you till you get a replacement.
One thing I do like about SF is if if it fails, you can easily replace it with a slick in the field and continue your flight.

One reason I still like mags, no matter where I am I can easily source a replacement if I need to, or perhaps even fix it in the field, most every mechanic has at least a basic understanding of their operation and they are pretty simple devices.

Personally, I've never had a mag fail (which is why I spec'd my new 370 with Bendix mags), but I have personally had EI failures more times than I care to remember.
 
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I have 2 P-Mags on my RV-10.

I have learned that they are sensitive to voltage drops during engine start. If you wire your plane similar to the Van's examples (where the instrument panel power is picked off at the starter contactor on the firewall) you may get a voltage drop at every cylinder compression during start that's just enough to block the P-Mag(s) from sending a spark.

Brand new battery(s) might not be a problem. Let them season a bit and this issue may show. I ended up running a dedicated #6 wire from the battery contactor to the panel buss to try to keep that power source off of the #0 wire feeding the starter. Still an issue at times.

A better idea might be the small TCM Intelligent power stabilizer to keep the P-Mags from suffering from a brown-out during start.
 
I have 2 P-Mags on my RV-10.

I have learned that they are sensitive to voltage drops during engine start. If you wire your plane similar to the Van's examples (where the instrument panel power is picked off at the starter contactor on the firewall) you may get a voltage drop at every cylinder compression during start that's just enough to block the P-Mag(s) from sending a spark.

Brand new battery(s) might not be a problem. Let them season a bit and this issue may show. I ended up running a dedicated #6 wire from the battery contactor to the panel buss to try to keep that power source off of the #0 wire feeding the starter. Still an issue at times.

A better idea might be the small TCM Intelligent power stabilizer to keep the P-Mags from suffering from a brown-out during start.
In the RV-10 the engine is cranked with two PC-625 batteries in parrallel. One side of hte panel (one SkyView EFIS) is powered durning engine start, the ohter side stays off. Never a problem with panel brown out.

Carl
 
In the RV-10 the engine is cranked with two PC-625 batteries in parrallel. One side of hte panel (one SkyView EFIS) is powered durning engine start, the ohter side stays off. Never a problem with panel brown out.

Carl
I had two PC-680s in parallel. No problem when they were new. When a bit aged the issue showed up. Brad at P-Mag confirmed (after I chased down what I thought was a faulty fuel servo) that they have reports of RV-10s with this issue.

Brad's recommendation was to try something like a small battery pack of 8 AA batteries, together outputting 12v, and set up a plug on the panel (or near) that allows that battery pack to directly power one of the Pmags during start. After start, unplug the battery pack, and turn on regular ship's power to that P-Mag. I did this and it works quite well. But the TCW might be more elegant.
 
For my money/safety, I want one magneto and one Pmag. Once you get below 900RPM the dyno in the Pmag won't generate enough power to keep firing, unless you have 12 volts ship power to keep it working below about 900 RPM. Not a good scenario with a complete electrical failure: both Pmags will fail on rollout and with a dead battery you will need a tow off the runway.
 
One thing to remember when reading anecdotal experiences with ANY new(ish) device is the vintage of the equipment that failed. Like any new design, PMags had growing pains in the early days (as did Light speed, EFISS, SDS….we learn by gaining hours and fixing problems!), so early units have more failures, while (if the product matures), later units are more reliable.

So when someone says “I’ve had these failures in a PMag”, you have to ask if those were in the early (fifteeen-year-ago production) or in units produced last year. I shred away from anything new that is required to keep me in teh air, and let the PMags mature for ten years before I started buying and using them. U now have eight of them in four airplanes, and have had no issues.

Of course, those are all the four-cylinder units - the six-banger PMags are still in their earlier years, but I am lookign forward to using those as they prove reliable!
Now that we have a "Like" button, can we get a "Definit Like" button. This post would certainly qualify as "Definit Like" for me.
 
For my money/safety, I want one magneto and one Pmag. Once you get below 900RPM the dyno in the Pmag won't generate enough power to keep firing, unless you have 12 volts ship power to keep it working below about 900 RPM. Not a good scenario with a complete electrical failure: both Pmags will fail on rollout and with a dead battery you will need a tow off the runway.
Is your conventional Mag an impulse or non impulse? Because one of the benefits of going dual Pmags is getting rid of the potential hand grenade they call an impulse coupling. Having an engine quit on rollout on the runway doesn’t bother me.. having an impulse coupling come apart and make the entire engine quit in flight would bother me a lot more!
 
I have about 1200 hours behind Pmags (from about 2005) and about 800 hours behind magnetos with several different aircraft. I have seen failures of both. There is a definite and verifiable performance improvement with Pmags at less than full throttle, with a fixed pitch prop from the runway and up and with a cs prop particularly at altitude. Mag failures usually cause rough running. My one Pmag failure in the last 10 or 12 years just stopped working, didn't know until the mag check at shut down, possibly due to getting too hot. I've just fitted 2 x Pmags to my latest aircraft.
 
"Is your conventional Mag an impulse or non impulse? Because one of the benefits of going dual Pmags is getting rid of the potential hand grenade they call an impulse coupling. Having an engine quit on rollout on the runway doesn’t bother me.. having an impulse coupling come apart and make the entire engine quit in flight would bother me a lot more!"

It is an impulse mag, There are service bulletins and AD's on impulse couplings: preform the task or replace as may be required and the likelihood of a failure is low. I've operated 23 GA airplanes over 8000 hours so far, and have never had an impulse coupling fail. I'm comfortable using one or two during flight. Your experience may be different: use what you are comfortable with.
 
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For my money/safety, I want one magneto and one Pmag. Once you get below 900RPM the dyno in the Pmag won't generate enough power to keep firing, unless you have 12 volts ship power to keep it working below about 900 RPM. Not a good scenario with a complete electrical failure: both Pmags will fail on rollout and with a dead battery you will need a tow off the runway.
So you’re saying it will get you safely all the way to the ground with a full electrical failure and you’ll be inconvenienced by having a tow off the runway. Sounds fine to me
 
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