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Minimum equipment for legal IFR?

I

Iluke

Well Known Member
Hi All,

I'm looking for some advice on what's the minimum equipment I'd need to add to my VFR RV-7 to be IFR legal? Asking because I equipped my RV-7 for VFR only and now I'm scoping out the possibility of an upgrade. I currently have a Dynon Skyview system with one HDX display, a single ADAHRS and a Dynon (non IFR certified) GPS. I believe I need at a minimum second/backup attitude indicator, a second ADAHRS and a IFR-legal GPS. Is there anything else I'm not thinking of? And a related question, IFR GPS units seem to range in price from very reasonable to well over $20K. What would the high end units give me that the cheaper ones would not?

Again, I'm just in the initial stages of scoping the possibilities of an up grade. I'd still have to go get the IFR rating if I chose to go that way. Just trying at this point to understand the possibilities.

thanks
-Ivan
 
I would start by looking at 91.205 (d) go down the list for what is legally required. Now that you have those covered, think about what backup instruments you might want. Note there is no req for a backup attitude indicator, but it would be smart, typically a backup g5 or equivalent will suffice. Also ensure your operating limitations allow for ifr if adequately equipped.

Regarding the ifr navigators,
The higher end units typically give you a larger screen so it's more user friendly. Also some have nav some have com capability, adsb , etc . You can download the Garmin simulator on a ipad to try some of them out. Gtn750xi probably being the best but most expensive, gps175 being the smallest and cheapest, no difference though in what approaches can be shot by the waas approved gps's

You also might want to install autopilot servos to reduce workload for ifr flying, a heated pitot, alternate static source
 
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Here's a good video from Midwest Avionics on legal IFR

EDIT: Remember, having a legal IFR aircraft has different requirements from getting your instrument rating in the same aircraft.
 
Besides the minimum legal equipment spelled out in 91.205, any redundancy (avionics, instruments, and electrical) to achieve your acceptable level of risk, and nav equipment suitable for the routes to be flown, don't forget you need current 91.411 and 91.413 inspections.
 
Auburntsts said:
Besides the minimum legal equipment spelled out in 91.205, any redundancy (avionics, instruments, and electrical) to achieve your acceptable level of risk, and nav equipment suitable for the routes to be flown, don't forget you need current 91.411 and 91.413 inspections.
Click to expand...

That's true of any aircraft, regardless of IFR capability.
 
RV7A Flyer said:
That's true of any aircraft, regardless of IFR capability.
Click to expand...
Ummm not exactly on both counts. The 411 (altimeter system) inspection is only required for IFR aircraft. The 413 (transponder) inspection is only required if you operate in airspace that requires mandatory transponder use.
 
Iluke said:
Hi All,

I'm looking for some advice on what's the minimum equipment I'd need to add to my VFR RV-7 to be IFR legal? Asking because I equipped my RV-7 for VFR only and now I'm scoping out the possibility of an upgrade. I currently have a Dynon Skyview system with one HDX display, a single ADAHRS and a Dynon (non IFR certified) GPS. I believe I need at a minimum second/backup attitude indicator, a second ADAHRS and a IFR-legal GPS. Is there anything else I'm not thinking of? And a related question, IFR GPS units seem to range in price from very reasonable to well over $20K. What would the high end units give me that the cheaper ones would not?

Again, I'm just in the initial stages of scoping the possibilities of an up grade. I'd still have to go get the IFR rating if I chose to go that way. Just trying at this point to understand the possibilities.

thanks
-Ivan
Click to expand...
In your case you need "Navigation Equipment appropriate to the flight". Some GPS units are NOT IFR certified, so be careful with this. Remember, LEGAL MINIMUM does not take into account YOUR level of comfort and/or proficiency. Equip your aircraft accordingly.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-91/subpart-C

This is my DYNON SkyView panel, but I went with a LOT more than "minimum" required. ;)
 

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Auburntsts said:
Besides the minimum legal equipment spelled out in 91.205, any redundancy (avionics, instruments, and electrical) to achieve your acceptable level of risk, and nav equipment suitable for the routes to be flown, don't forget you need current 91.411 and 91.413 inspections.
Click to expand...
Unless you plan to traverse into messy IMC (meaning: you only plan to fly IMC consisting of morning fog/marine layer at familiar airport or be able to punch through puffy clouds on a nice day) then if you still have a Sentry/Stratus and Foreflight on an iPad would be backup enough to get you into VMC.
 
Amadeus said:
Unless you plan to traverse into messy IMC (meaning: you only plan to fly IMC consisting of morning fog/marine layer at familiar airport or be able to punch through puffy clouds on a nice day) then if you still have a Sentry/Stratus and Foreflight on an iPad would be backup enough to get you into VMC.
Click to expand...
The problem is sometimes your plan doesn't pan out and you best be prepared-- for example it's a marine layer but you need to return to your origin ASAP. The fact it's VFR 10 miles aways might not help you any. Everyone has to assess their acceptable level of risk and plan accordingly. I for one to not subscribe to the "lite IFR" concept, and I'm equipped and plan accordingly. Ya pays your moneys and takes yer chances..........
 
My best input- if you don't yet fly IFR- WAAS IFR GPS certified navigators mean your destination and alternate/s, if needed, can have only GPS approaches.

Second- IF that's covered BUT GPS goes down with you IMC- THEN what? I'd have an ILS/VOR and get radar vectors to final.

Normally, DME is also provided/covered by the IFR GPS.
 
Auburntsts said:
Ummm not exactly on both counts. The 411 (altimeter system) inspection is only required for IFR aircraft. The 413 (transponder) inspection is only required if you operate in airspace that requires mandatory transponder use.
Click to expand...
You're right...I didn't read .411 close enough. And I was being somewhat flippant.
 
One thing also you must consider is the weight of all the crap you will be adding for a heavy ifr setup. To me I would think it's not worth it for the change in useful load or handling characteristics. Lighter RVs fly better.
 
I did not see anyone say or ask: What does your Operating Limitations say about IFR?

Most likely the OpLims say that your NON STANDARD category Experimental must be equipped to meet 91.205 or something like that as 91.205 only applies to STANDARD Category Airworthiness Certificate aircraft but your operating limitations make it apply for night and or IFR operation. IF your OpLims does not allow IFR when equipped IAW 91.205, they you will need to get that revised.

As you know, the navigator radio could be the largest single expensive item.

I did not see anyone say anything about VOR checks if you have and use a VOR receiver for IFR but they did tell you about 91.411 and 91.413.
 
Here’s my cfii opinion.
1. Find a cfii to give you a few introductory lessons. Stick to a hood in VMC. Depending on your nav equipment (or lack of) you might be limited to non-precision gps approaches under vfr, that’s okay. Decide if you want to pursue the rating. If the answer is yes, then hit the books, study and pass the written. At that point (or maybe with a couple more lessons) you’ll be at the point to decide for yourself (1) what you need/want for nav equipment, as well as (2) backup equipment. You can get your rating with no gps, just a nav-com, but it’s fast becoming very limiting without the TSO’d waas gps.
 
I've also been kind of baffled by the "How to convert a VFR plane to IFR" question. Every time I think about it and do a little research/searching my head ends up spinning. It would be nice if the vendors themselves (Dynon, Garmin, and so on) would provide concrete example lists like:

1. What [vendor's] stuff you need to add to be IFR legal
2. What [vendor's] additional stuff you will want to add to actually fly in the soup
3. What [vendor's] stuff you would need to do your IFR check ride in your plane
4. and finally what (if anything) you'd need to remove from your [vendor] VFR setup

Then you could just put together a shopping list and plan where it will all go. The "Do I really want an instrument rating" and "Do I really want to fly in weather" questions seem to me to be separate from the equipment questions.
 
Draker said:
I've also been kind of baffled by the "How to convert a VFR plane to IFR" question.
Click to expand...

It's not really a worthwhile question, IMHO.

A better starting point: "If I was planning a new airplane, what would I need for IFR?"

Once you have that, you can then review what you already have. The delta between the two is what you'll need to add or remove.

I'm not massively surprised that none of the vendors offer detailed guidance. The answer really depends on the equipment level you're starting from and whatever risk tolerance you have that'd drive you above legal-minimum standards, and they can't possibly know either of those things.

I went through this exercise for my RV-6 a few years ago. A surprising thing to learn was the extent to which the decision making process was driven by available panel real-estate. For the two-seat RVs with steam-gauges, by the time you've added a navigator, engine instrumentation, the switches and circuit breakers needed for IFR-capable equipment, backup attitude instruments, etc you're running out of space, and need careful planning to make sure you don't end up committed to an unwieldy mess you hate flying behind.

- mark
 
echostar7 said:
I would start by looking at 91.205 (d) go down the list for what is legally required. Now that you have those covered, think about what backup instruments you might want. Note there is no req for a backup attitude indicator, but it would be smart, typically a backup g5 or equivalent will suffice. Also ensure your operating limitations allow for ifr if adequately equipped.

Regarding the ifr navigators,
The higher end units typically give you a larger screen so it's more user friendly. Also some have nav some have com capability, adsb , etc . You can download the Garmin simulator on a ipad to try some of them out. Gtn750xi probably being the best but most expensive, gps175 being the smallest and cheapest, no difference though in what approaches can be shot by the waas approved gps's

You also might want to install autopilot servos to reduce workload for ifr flying, a heated pitot, alternate static source
Click to expand...
I have had this argument several times with my hangar mates. Look at FAR 91.205. It covers what equipment is required day VFR night VFR and IFR. Anything past 91.205 is optional. The aircraft I fly is low and slow. I will shortly be upgrading my 15 1965 steam gauges to 4 digital instruments, including a pair of GI 275’s tied to a GPS/COMM. I am shooting for the absolute minimum to make my aircraft IFR legal.

It all depends on what your comfort level is and what your mission is. I fly only for fun and adding an IFR rating and making my low and slow aircraft IFR legal, makes me that much safer. I will NEVER fly into possible icing or thunderstorms. It is entirely possibly to file an IFR flight plan and never touch a cloud, and that is what I am shooting for.

If your air missions require needing to get there regardless of weather conditions, a ticket on a commercial airline is cheaper than an IFR panel.
 
There is one piece of equipment not listed in 91.205 that I consider to be a necessity for flying IMC.....AUTOPILOT.
 
Amadeus said:
There is one piece of equipment not listed in 91.205 that I consider to be a necessity for flying IMC.....AUTOPILOT.
Click to expand...
But of course make sure you are trained and proficient to come down to mins without it right? ;)
 
Iluke said:
Hi All,

I'm looking for some advice on what's the minimum equipment I'd need to add to my VFR RV-7 to be IFR legal? Asking because I equipped my RV-7 for VFR only and now I'm scoping out the possibility of an upgrade. I currently have a Dynon Skyview system with one HDX display, a single ADAHRS and a Dynon (non IFR certified) GPS. I believe I need at a minimum second/backup attitude indicator, a second ADAHRS and a IFR-legal GPS. Is there anything else I'm not thinking of? And a related question, IFR GPS units seem to range in price from very reasonable to well over $20K. What would the high end units give me that the cheaper ones would not?

Again, I'm just in the initial stages of scoping the possibilities of an up grade. I'd still have to go get the IFR rating if I chose to go that way. Just trying at this point to understand the possibilities.

thanks
-Ivan
Click to expand...
Todd is correct with one added comment, equipment for the route AND approach to be flown. For MANY years I flew IFR only with VOR's. Later added a DME, then added Rnav, then VFR GPS (yes, you can file IFR with a VFR GPS (panel mounted) called out in the remarks section, then with a non-WAAS IFR approved GPS, then next and now with IFR WAAS GPS. I do fly with Dynon, 2 of the planes have the newest HDX. The newest iPad ADAHRS/geo ref/etc. certainly gives me a lot more comfort without the redundant instruments. In my years, I lost vac 3 times, 2 required IMC flight, no matter how easy you think it is without gyro, partial panel is NOT easy:)
 
Ivan, I'm going through this right now. Single HDX screen, I'm adding a Garmin GPS175 navigator and an AV-30E backup instrument. In addition, I'm also installing a heated pitot and alternate static source, plus I already have autopilot. Ipad will provide some additional backup. This is pretty much bare minimum in cost and equipment, and I will plan on fairly high personal minimums when I fly IFR. It's a convenience but not a license to press on regardless...

There have been several threads on VF about this subject and I found them all very informative.

Happy to swing by GON when I'm done in a month or two and show it off.

Kevin
 
While getting my Airworthiness Certificate last September, my inspector (not a DAR but from the FAA) told me I would need to install a magnetic compass for night or IFR flight. I'm not sure I agree with this but didn't want to challenge him at the time. I have a dual glass display (GRT) with a Magnetometer in the wing.
 
kthom_441 said:
While getting my Airworthiness Certificate last September, my inspector (not a DAR but from the FAA) told me I would need to install a magnetic compass for night or IFR flight. I'm not sure I agree with this but didn't want to challenge him at the time. I have a dual glass display (GRT) with a Magnetometer in the wing.
Click to expand...
For experimental, not tied to 91.205, But it can, per the following article:

www.kitplanes.com

Ask the DAR

Position lights, repairman certificate and builder’s log. By Mel Asberry.
www.kitplanes.com www.kitplanes.com
 
kthom_441 said:
While getting my Airworthiness Certificate last September, my inspector (not a DAR but from the FAA) told me I would need to install a magnetic compass for night or IFR flight. I'm not sure I agree with this but didn't want to challenge him at the time. I have a dual glass display (GRT) with a Magnetometer in the wing.
Click to expand...
OMG, there are STILL inspectors out there who don't understand this?!!!
 
Pilot135pd said:
Not really. I fly my plane VFR only and it doesn't even have a transponder installed, so I don't need to do either one of those.
Click to expand...
Yeah, didn't I already admit that I was being a bit snarky at the sidetracks the thread had taken?
 
RV7A Flyer said:
Yeah, didn't I already admit that I was being a bit snarky at the sidetracks the thread had taken?
Click to expand...
I start reading at the beginning of a thread and reply as I go until I finish the entire thread. Some threads are 15. 20, 30 pages long so if I wait until i read it all to reply to something later I might forget or won't find it. I know I'm not the only one who does that.
 
I've been slowly adding to my Dynon Skyview VFR panel to make it IFR capable. I started this little upgrade "project" 4 years ago. I took the Instrument Ground school at our local community college because I couldn't get into their impacted A&P program, then COVID hit and we had to go to classes remotely. I deferred the written test and instrument flying instruction, but eventually got into and through the A&P program. Four years later I'm picking the Instrument training back up and have started getting all of the pieces together for the panel.

Here is what I have added so far:
  • Second 10" EFIS screen (I had my single screen not boot up, then got the pink screen of death on the ground, thankfully! Screens can fail.)
  • Secondary ADAHRS (already had made room on the shelf next to the primary, so it just bolted in).
  • Heated pitot (easy upgrade, run a couple of wires, power, ground and status back to the EMS).
  • Dynon Knob Panel (another easy module to add to simplify setting altitude, baro, and hdg/trk).
  • Upgraded my Vertical Power VP-X Sport to the Pro model for more circuits.
  • Another Delta Pop COM antenna for a second radio (I put this on before the plane was painted).
Next items going in this month:
  • Dynon ARINC-429 (will be mounted on top of the EMS using Dynon's adapter plate).
  • Garmin GPS 175 and GA-35 GPS antenna (certified GPS navigation).
  • Garmin GNC 215 Nav/Com (nice having a second radio, along with NAV/VOR/GS/ILS capability/redundancy).
  • Archer wingtip antenna for the NAV.
  • Dynon AP Panel (I already have the Dynon AP servos, but this will provide auto trim and easy to use buttons for advanced mode autopilot features).
  • TO/GA button and COM1/COM2 switch.
I also am cutting a new panel blank for these, so some stuff will be repositioned from my current layout.
Going IFR capable has definitely gotten expensive, probably more than $15K so far. Everything has gone way up in price over the last 4 years, but I should have a super capable IFR airplane that should appreciate at least that amount in value.
Now on to taking the written and getting the training done (already underway).
 
Amadeus said:
There is one piece of equipment not listed in 91.205 that I consider to be a necessity for flying IMC.....AUTOPILOT.
Click to expand...
Hard agree. A functioning autopilot is on my personal minimum equipment list for filing IFR, even on a sunny day. As is a level of currency and proficiency that allows me to shoot an approach to minimums if the AP takes an unscheduled vacation (which mine has done, more than once). When you notice the little flashing yellow AP on the G5, you get very glad that you shot approaches by hand recently. 😃

I also think it’s very important to train WITH the autopilot on a regular basis. My instrument examiner was adamant about that and I think it was wise advice. The buttonology etc. is not always intuitive and is a perishable skill.

Two seat RVs are not ideal IFR aircraft, and in any event the safety benefits of a working autopilot are so obvious and significant that I consider them mandatory even in truck-like certified aircraft.

And while I’m bloviating: I think the fact that experimental aircraft have access to incredibly sophisticated and (relatively…) inexpensive autopilots is an underrated advantage of flying homebuilts.
 
Auburntsts said:
The problem is sometimes your plan doesn't pan out and you best be prepared-- for example it's a marine layer but you need to return to your origin ASAP. The fact it's VFR 10 miles aways might not help you any. Everyone has to assess their acceptable level of risk and plan accordingly. I for one to not subscribe to the "lite IFR" concept, and I'm equipped and plan accordingly. Ya pays your moneys and takes yer chances..........
Click to expand...
Indeed, it sometimes doesn't, but my impression was that the poster was speaking to backup instruments, not primary. Surely I'm not the only one who has been around long enough to remember when "partial panel" due to a vacuum pump failure (not an uncommon event) meant being left with a wet compass, a turn coordinator and an airspeed indicator, or flying in/out of airports where an NDB approach was the only IAP. I can't ever recall flying a single that had two ADFs. Granted, I don't want to go back to those days either, but it's what we had.

IF one considers using an iPad/Stratus(x) or similar as a backup plan, a key is to practice with it before it's needed. Also make sure to add a gyro reset to your checklist, in case the Stratus(x) was jostled since your last flight. While I would never consider launching with just that even if it were legal, in an emergency, it's actually pretty darn good. A split screen with PFD and an approach plate provides surprisingly good situational awareness. Better in some ways that our primary instrumentation was back in the day. Completely indedpendent of ship's power as well. Granted, both altitude and speed are GPS-derived. On an approach, potential GPS altitude errors are particularly critical. No glideslope of course, so If Wx is 200 and 1/2 the issue becomes even more serious. I've flown non-precision practice approaches, including a GPS overlay of a DME arc to the FAF. Not something I'd want to do in IMC, but it has worked in practice and if I were out of other options I think I'd have a reasonable shot at a good outcome.

I also agree with another poster on the value of a VOR in the primary navigator. In the SWUSA, GPS outages are relatively common as the military tests one thing or another, but elsewhere that may be less of an issue.
 
kthom_441 said:
While getting my Airworthiness Certificate last September, my inspector (not a DAR but from the FAA) told me I would need to install a magnetic compass for night or IFR flight. I'm not sure I agree with this but didn't want to challenge him at the time. I have a dual glass display (GRT) with a Magnetometer in the wing.
Click to expand...
That inspector is 100% incorrect, and it is very clearly written in the rules.
 
mfleming said:
IMHO a magnetometer meets the definition … the rules do not specify a wet compass.
Click to expand...
Interesting thoughts… I’d agree that a wet compass is not required.

The language reads:
“Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Airspeed indicator.
(2) Altimeter.
(3) Magnetic direction indicator
Etc…”

Stating that the GMU-11 or GMU-22, for instance, when paired with a GDU display doesn’t meet the definition would be akin to arguing that a mechanical wind-up clock or discreet digital instrument must be part of the installed equipment as per the same regulation which further along states:

“(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are…

(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation….”

Interestingly, the language regarding the clock is even more specific that a digital representation is permissible. They did not however specifically state that a wet-compass is required to meet the required for magnetic heading indicator. As long as the installed device is driven by sensing magnetic field and not using a derived gps-based heading, I think the intent is met.

But I’m not a DAR or a lawyer…!

Patrick
 
Arguing with some inspectors is like wrestling a pig in mud; at some point you realize they enjoy it... :ROFLMAO:
 
Pdp7427 said:
Interestingly, the language regarding the clock is even more specific that a digital representation is permissible. They did not however specifically state that a wet-compass is required to meet the required for magnetic heading indicator. As long as the installed device is driven by sensing magnetic field and not using a derived gps-based heading, I think the intent is met.
Click to expand...

The whole letter of the law vs. intent debate is always fraught. Sometimes I feel like you have to be a lawyer to safely fly! 91.205 also specifies "gyroscopic" pitch, bank, and directional indicators. Modern, glass systems surely don't have little tiny physical gyroscopes rotating around inside of them. So do solid-state MEMS gyroscopes count? I guess?
 
Draker said:
The whole letter of the law vs. intent debate is always fraught. Sometimes I feel like you have to be a lawyer to safely fly! 91.205 also specifies "gyroscopic" pitch, bank, and directional indicators. Modern, glass systems surely don't have little tiny physical gyroscopes rotating around inside of them. So do solid-state MEMS gyroscopes count? I guess?
Click to expand...
I really don’t know…!
 
Draker said:
The whole letter of the law vs. intent debate is always fraught. Sometimes I feel like you have to be a lawyer to safely fly! 91.205 also specifies "gyroscopic" pitch, bank, and directional indicators. Modern, glass systems surely don't have little tiny physical gyroscopes rotating around inside of them. So do solid-state MEMS gyroscopes count? I guess?
Click to expand...
What it is, in these cases, is stupid. There are any number of ways to measure a magnetic field, and thus be a "magnetic direction indicator", not just a magnetized needle floating in a bowl of alcohol, or to measure angular velocity and orientation and thus be a "gyroscope" (and yes, ring lasers and MEMS gyros are gyros). It amazes me that in a field as technical and advanced as aeronautics that there are people in positions of authority who have these completely antediluvian ideas in their heads. As if they think that if Elmer Sperry himself didn't design the instrument, then it can't POSSIBLY be legal.

Criminy.
 
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Pdp7427 said:
(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation….”

Interestingly, the language regarding the clock is even more specific that a digital representation is permissible.
Click to expand...
Because you needed the seconds information for things like procedure turns, etc. Having the finest increment be minutes would have been, uh, bad.

But at least they added the "digital presentation" clause, which covers everything else, I'd guess. :) Now...just when do you suppose that was added to the regulation? :) I'm going to go out on a limb and guess sometime within the last 20 years, digital watches having been around since the 70s (and larger digital clocks since what, the 30s?) notwithstanding.
 
PilotjohnS said:
so, can the g3x present a fake clock with hands and a sweep second hand?
Click to expand...
More importantly - who, in their right mind, is going to dive into the buttonology to find and activate a clock function on their EFIS while trying to hand-fly a procedure turn in IMC?
 
Somewhere, down at the bottom of my flight bag, is an electronic stopwatch on a lanyard. Back in the dark ages, when I got my instrument certificate, I wore it around my neck. Every approach got timed, FAF to MAP. On most of them the MAP was determined by that time. Last time I looked, the battery had died. Times change.
 
airguy said:
More importantly - who, in their right mind, is going to dive into the buttonology to find and activate a clock function on their EFIS while trying to hand-fly a procedure turn in IMC?
Click to expand...
And people asked me Why I put a chronograph on the panel…..
 

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airguy said:
More importantly - who, in their right mind, is going to dive into the buttonology to find and activate a clock function on their EFIS while trying to hand-fly a procedure turn in IMC?
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On most displays isn't the PFD clock on pretty much all the time? I know it is on the stuff I currently fly.
 
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