What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Great idea!

D

dlomheim

Well Known Member
deej said:
I would love to see a pro-alternative engine person be the SOLE moderator of the Alternative engine section of this forum. Perhaps then that person could filter out the "attack dogs" and we might be able to have meaningful conversations here. Unfortunately I think most of the people with real knowledge have moved elsewhere, and getting them back here would be extremely difficult, if not impossible. Note, I said most, not all. Obviously there are some still trying, like Bill, but far too many have left.

-Dj
Click to expand...

This is right on the mark as any who have been on this for a couple of years can readily atest. So how can we go about instituting something like this? A primary goal of this forum should be to assist alternative engine builders vs. wasting band width on endless discourses of past failures, or how "X" alternative engine company had screwed them, etc., etc., etc.

Does this kind of chaff happen on the "traditional aircraft engine" forum? Do the Lycoming guys have to constantly explain themselves on that forum? What gives here anyway? When someone buys a rotary engine and informs this list about it but feels compelled to add qualifiers such as "flame proof suit on", etc.; the true state of the cancer infecting this list is readily apparent to all and can no longer be hidden. The traditional engine forum doesn't have to put up with continual attacks regarding powerplant prefence, so why does this list have to?

As stated before, too many good folks have left this list (Ross Farnham of SDS for instance); and all of the rest of us who are actively installing alternative engines in our RV's are the big losers for it!

So the question remains, how do we get a dedicated moderator assigned to this list who will not end up joining in with the "attack dogs"; but will instead weed out all that unproductive stuff we've all had to put up with for way too long? I've been on this list for five plus years now and didn't like it then and still don't at this point in time. Do all of us of like mind need to sign a petition and send it on to Doug Reeves with the request???

I am not quite ready to give up on this list since it has so much potential to be a great forum in helping experimenters adapt their alternative engines to their RV airframes; but the "flamesuit" caveat made me wonder if it was really worth my time any longer...

Doug Lomheim
RV-9A / Mazda 13B
 
While insults and flaming are not very useful, there are many here who have years of experience with alternative engines which have failed. Keeping them from contributing their experiences (even negative ones) seems counter productive to me.

Having said that, I support your idea, and can support an area that is a "No flame suit needed" zone. :D
 
Last edited:
I don't think Ross left due to the "cancer". I think he just got extremely busy. I may be wrong but he stayed in the battle for years. It really isn't that bad at all anymore. There are many that failed and it would be helpful if they could provide info on why it/they failed. Developing a different way of doing something takes time, money, knowledge and a ton of persistence and is not for somebody who has to have an instant result. Sometimes you can't get there from here you have to go back from where you came from. And there is a lot going back from where you started.
 
I agree

I agree a change is needed. I don't have an auto engine, but do enjoy reading and learning. I don't have a problem with those who have installed or attempted to install an alternative engine sharing their experiences good or bad. It is all valuable.

I do not enjoy or understand the constant "evangilizing", without a shred a first hand experience, about how they should "save their souls" and "see they light" of Lycoming. This section should be dedicated to sharing pratical knowledge about alternative engine installations (good or bad) in RV's.

Sorry, I will get off the soapbox now. :)
 
TSwezey said:
I don't think Ross left due to the "cancer". I think he just got extremely busy. I may be wrong but he stayed in the battle for years. It really isn't that bad at all anymore. There are many that failed and it would be helpful if they could provide info on why it/they failed. Developing a different way of doing something takes time, money, knowledge and a ton of persistence and is not for somebody who has to have an instant result. Sometimes you can't get there from here you have to go back from where you came from. And there is a lot going back from where you started.
Click to expand...

Actually I did leave because of the continuous negative posts from the traditional engine guys and one biased moderator (in my view). I continue to lurk and learn here on VAF which is such a tremendous resource. Doug always said here- "if you don't like it, there is the door"- well I took the door, having better things to do with my time frankly than defend the idea of alt engines against a continuous onslaught of prejudice.

I might return if the alt engine area becomes a place to exchange constructive information to those interested without the strident roar of those posters who think everyone who doesn't install a Lycoming is a lunatic.

Fortunately we have some other great forums for alt engine people to discuss their successes, failures, issues and questions on and this has paid real benefits for these users. We have quite of number of success stories now- plus a few problems we are working out solutions for.

I do want to thank Paul Dye for his even handed support and pleas for fairness, understanding and reason here. I was fortunate enough to meet Paul at Reno last year- what a truly nice and smart guy. The world might be a better place if some people took his advice to try to live in harmony....:)
 
Hey Ross, good to see you're still reading ....you raise the bar whenever you participate. Truthfully, I find that there is really only one thing I like best about VAF, and that I try and help preserve when I can - "Civility" is what Doug Reeves calls it. Being from Minnesota, I just call it "being nice". Be nice, give everyone a chance to voice their opinion without personal attack, and take away from the discussions what you need to make your own decision. Arguing on the internet is akin to beating your head against a wall - you're not going to convince folks to change their minds if they are already made up. The best you can do is educate those who have still not decided. Respect each other, and let folks have their say - so long as they are civil about it.

I contribute what I know, and rarely give advice - I will give my experience, and others can take it or leave it. But when I see folks piling on, I will step in to referee. Just deleting posts which we don't agree with is counterproductive - so long as what is posted is done respectfully, and is clearly understandable as fact or opinion, I can live with it.

It takes very little moderation (by actual post count) to keep this place running smoothly - thanks mostly to the 11,000+ members who know how to behave in a reasonable fashion...

Paul
 
Hey Ross, glad to see you back -----no matter what the motivation.

Missed you, and the knowledge you have to share.

How goes the 10???
 
I have to agree....

...with the idea to have an Alternative engine guy as a moderator here.

I'm always supportive of EAA and experimentation and read all I can about Subies, Belted-air Chevies, LS-1's and rotaries....I've had cars with all of them as well.

This could definitely be a beneficial area...Alt engines.

Great to hear from you again, Ross!

Best,
 
I'd sure like to see someone who is interested in Alt. Engines moderate this forum. I left a large internet forum involved with Jeep Cherokees because of this very same problem of flaming anything and everything. It was really disheartning to do so as I had been heavily involved from the start up as an officer, moderator and event coordinator. Coming over to VAF has been like a dose of cold water on a hot day. I appreciate the fact that flame wars are not tolerated in any shape or form. VAF also seems to attract a higher caliber of person. It may be that we are typically older and slightly more wealthy than the Jeep people. I don't know?! :confused:
That said, I see that the potential for the same problem is still lying just below the surface. I really have missed Ross and the others who have contributed so much to the Alt. Engine forums and would like to see them feel comfortable in contributing once again without getting their ideas and experiences flamed.
 
Devil's advocate......

Any currrent moderator may delete an attack dog. They're not deleting because most know the difference between an attack dog and a barking dog.

Titling a thread "Flame suit on...Just bought an engine" is beating on the kennel with a stick......with the expected result. Might the result have been different if the thread was titled "Help me build a custom engine mount"?

"Meaningful conversations"? The specific problem holding back alt-engine development is a lack of truly meaningful discussion (and understanding) within the alt-engine community.....engineering, physics, science, experiment, measurement. FWIW, most of the Lyco cheering section is equally shallow....so all we have is barking. Want to improve the situation? Raise the bar.
 
If we're going to have a mod for the alt engines section, I'll second the idea of Ross as moderator, assuming he'll take the gig.

When I first started this adventure, I had planned to use an alternative engine, first a rotary, then a Subaru. I've got a pretty thick internet skin, so trolls don't bother me, but it's nice to find an oasis of rational, civil discussion once in a while, along with some positive reinforcement that just maybe I'm not crazy for wanting to hang something different on the end of my plane.

Even though I went with a traditional Lycoming, guys like Ross Farnham and Tracy Crook (not active here) have opened my eyes to a wealth of knowledge gained from their successes as well as their setbacks. And mad props to all the other guys on here who flew with alt engines and replaced them with Lycs, for whatever reason. The experiences you shared during your alt engine ops is treasure.
 
Invitation?

DanH said:
Titling a thread "Flame suit on...Just bought an engine" is beating on the kennel with a stick......with the expected result. Might the result have been different if the thread was titled "Help me build a custom engine mount"?
.
Click to expand...


Does anybody honestly believe that I invited an attack by openly addressing that I understood the present mentality of some members in the forum? I didn't post any inflammatory remarks and please accept my sincerest apology if I came off that way. I only posted something here in an unpopular forum. I guess some may argue that If I post here at all that I could be a troll anyway. Opinions tend to fly wild here in this forum. Luckily I'm level-headed enough, and well enough informed to make my own decisions based upon the information that I've been able to gather. My skin is thick, my skull is not.

Well, either way... I did get the direction that I sought in spite of my thread title. Though I've not made contact with Ed Klepis, I plan to enlist his help and services.

I do think that having a forum where ideas are examined from all perspectives is necessary-- without ego, without propaganda, with hard facts.

I know little about how a forum is governed. I only know what is right. A moderator is essentially a referee. Upholding the rules set up by the webmaster. "That is allowed, this is not.... you there... you need to take the bench" I'm not so sure that a moderator should be able to edit or remove posts based upon personal opinion of the subject matter contained therein (provided rules are followed.) I was unable to see the post that was recently edited and therefore unable to see what the issue was, but I too believe that a Pro-alternative engine moderator should moderate this forum.

Having a moderator that is anti-alternative is kind of like having the gasoline companies decide what sort of fuel economy or emission standards our vehicles should have. Of course they would act based upon our interests in economy and the environment.:rolleyes:

What I sometimes see here is AstroTurfing. Copied from wiki... Astroturfing is a form of propaganda whose techniques usually consist of a few people attempting to give the impression that mass numbers of enthusiasts advocate some specific cause. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
Last edited:
So, here's a look in to the mind of a Moderator who is interested in allowing intelligent debate but also wants to promote respectful, non-confrontational behavior...

OK, Dan is playing Devil's advocate for the idea presented by the OP. I have seen many of his posts, know he is intelligent, has contributed a great deal of good stuff to the forums, and can post with just a tiny bit of an "edge" - he's not trying to be mean, he assumes that people understand a "hypothetical". I also tend to agree with his proposition that if moderators prime responsibility is to keep the peace, then they don't need to be subject-matter experts.

Then we have Bill, who, by the tone of his response, seems to have taken a bit of offense to the slight edge in Dan's post. Fair enough - I can see how he took it that way. He is also a good sport and is keeping things civil. (Some folks would just go off the deep edge if they felt insulted - instead, he wants to talk about it - great!). I also agree with him that we want forums that present facts, without ego, without propaganda.

OK - so there is a potential that the next person is going to come along and feel that Bill didn't make the point strong enough, and will slam Dan a bit for "piling on". Now, that would probably be over the line. but do I have to go back and delete all three posts? Just the third one? If I do, then someone else will come along and repeat it. The first two posts are good and make some reasonable points - editing them makes it look like we are just censoring stuff all the time - and we don't do that.

If I leave it alone, will the balance of peace be maintained - or do some folks think that the attacks have already started? You know....I am going to trust that this will stay on track. I'm just a volunteer here, I have an airplane to buld - I think I'll go to the hanagr and let someone else worry about it!

Maybe what it takes is an Alt Eng guy with a good, mature head on their shoulders and a reputation for fairness to send a note to Doug and volunteer?

Keep the peace,

Paul
 
Last edited:
Moderating a forum with an emphasis on civility and promotion of good technical info is such a cut-n-dried process.........until you actually serve as a moderator............... ;)

This forum has a great set of moderators--VAF's success is the proof.

Now...back to the shop to work on my 1/2 VW-powered project:

http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/legaleagleXL

Does a chopped up VW count as an "alternative engine"? :D
 
Last edited:
I'm not offended, I just want to contribute.

We're all here for fun... Well we should be.

I guess I should re-read my posts looking for potential "edge"

no edge intended
 
I would love to see a pro-alternative engine person be the SOLE moderator of the Alternative engine section of this forum.
Click to expand...

And just what would this "pro alternative" sole moderator do that isn't already being done? What additional moderating qualities would this person bring to the table?

Remove any and all criticisms of alternative engines whether thay be based on experience or not?

Should the traditional engine foums have sole moderators who are pro Lycoming? If so what additional qualities would they bring to the table?

I think adding an alternative engine owner/operator to the panel of moderators is an excellent idea but making a "sole moderator" for any single forum is just plain a bad idea.
 
I think that the idea being that a dedicated moderator would keep a close eye on the forum better. That hasn't been done in the past probably because it has been a lower traffic forum. It could be built up again with a little nurturing.
 
JDanno said:
I think that the idea being that a dedicated moderator would keep a close eye on the forum better. That hasn't been done in the past probably because it has been a lower traffic forum. It could be built up again with a little nurturing.
Click to expand...

But the truth is, I pay equal attention (or inattention) to ALL the forums - I come in through "Today's Posts", and rarely pay any attention to which sub-forum a thread is in. Again - we moderate for civil posts and respectful behavior, not technical content. creating individual "fiefdoms" can lead down a road I am not sure we want to travel.....but that's my opinion.

That said, I also think having an Alt Eng Guru on the moderator panel is a great idea. I don't know if anyone has contacted Doug - he's the man, we're all just line-boys.....

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
But the truth is, I pay equal attention (or inattention) to ALL the forums - I come in through "Today's Posts", and rarely pay any attention to which sub-forum a thread is in. Again - we moderate for civil posts and respectful behavior, not technical content. creating individual "fiefdoms" can lead down a road I am not sure we want to travel.....but that's my opinion.

That said, I also think having an Alt Eng Guru on the moderator panel is a great idea. I don't know if anyone has contacted Doug - he's the man, we're all just
line-boys.....

Paul
Click to expand...

Gotta agree with Paul, I look at "today's posts" also, and dont worry about the thread. There are a few things that raise a red flag, and I pay a bit more attention to a thread -----speculation on reasons for a crash is a good example, but for the most part, it is just scan each new post.

And, empty the garbage cans, of course:rolleyes:

I did talk to DR about this, he is against the idea of a dedicated moderator, but is aware of what is going on.

Just a hunch here, but I suspect that he will be comming up with something to address things.
 
Ok, just so everyone is clear, this post is not directed at anyone...

Someone rightfully brought up the differences in how alt engine people act on the traditional engine section vs. how Lyco people post here. Should I post something on the traditional section to the effect that everyone got what they deserved when they installed a Lyco or clone and now they have a crank or rod issue/ AD or ECI cylinders? What would be the point of that?

I personally feel bad whenever someone has to shell out time and money for problems which really shouldn't be happening because an engine company screwed up something in the design, validation or manufacturing process. Let's face it, if I started doing that, my posts would be deleted.

All engines have their issues, they are just different issues. Let's explore the issues and come up with solutions.

I think what people would like to see here are USEFUL posts which can help someone. Some of these will be negative in nature as we can learn equally from failures as successes. Do we really need to rehash vendor problems from 5 years ago? Most everyone here knows that 3 of the Sube engine vendors fell well short on engineering, testing and customer support. Dan H is absolutely correct in his statement. I'd be more interested in what is happening today. First hand reports from current customers would be welcome.

I just wonder why people with no experience in the field feel they must post something which does nothing to further understanding. Just a jab for the sake of a jab. If you are happy with your Lyco or clone, please fly on and enjoy. If you get something out of reading about alt engines, please do. If you have a question or some useful insight, please post.

Just for the record, I would never want the job as sole moderator as I think not much will change here and it would not be an enjoyable job. Paul's pleas for tolerance have gone pretty much unheeded for months. I hope I'm wrong and something will change here for the better. Many people are interested in alt engines, just look at the viewing numbers or, as I said before, maybe it is just the entertainment value the opposite viewpoints and the war of words generate that make people flock here-like the carnage at a train wreck. I hope most VAF members are a bit more sophisticated than that. IMO, respect has not been high on the agenda list here in the past where it HAS been more of the norm on most other VAF sections.

I am truly flattered by all the posts and PMs from people who miss me here but let's face it, VAF will survive just fine without me. I'm not sure I'd have much to post anymore if people were kind here. Seems like many posts were simply trying to dismiss misinformation or rebuttal some sort of attack...

I also want to say that most moderators here do a great job here already. Do we need any more? Probably not.
 
Sam Buchanan said:
Does a chopped up VW count as an "alternative engine"? :D
Click to expand...

Indeed it does. May I also point out Sam's ultralight experience, with two-stroke engines no less?

Seems like that covers most of aviation's oppressed minorities....and I assure all he is not a bashful moderator ;)
 
Where to draw the line.

I thought that I would mention that I also have nothing against a factual, accurate reporting of alternate engine failures. That said, simply saying someone installed 3, 4, or 9 Subarus and none of them worked is not a useful post. Why did the installation work, because many work very well, or why did it fail? Were there different failure modes on each engine? Cooling trouble? Broken crankshaft? Motor mount failure?
Conversly, if someone is getting good service, from either a FWF supplier or their own total home-brew install it is great to hear about it. The details on the system, air or water cooling, GPH fuel use, installed weight, and speed are all really needed.
A separate moderator isn't necessary, and props to Ironflight for his level-headedness.:) The POSTS both pro and con, supported with factual information are what's vital. My homebuilt experience goes back all the way to the BD-5. When Bede filed for that bankruptcy, everyone was scrambling for an engine. I helped a local doctor, who had done a good job building his kit's airframe, put together a Kawasaki Z1 engine to run in it. I consider the effort a failure because even though the plane actually flew, he chose to listen to someone who had never worked with this engine to design his power takeoff. It was attached to a part of the engine that sometimes came adrift all by itself! The engine itself was perfectly suitable for the plane. this engine was durable, and had lasted hundreds of hours of flat-out running on Kawasaki's dyno. Iworked for them at that time. His was an accident waiting to happen. I could not get him to not fly the plane and a DAR, also without speciific knowledge of this engine actually passed it for flight! :( Knowing what I know now about how a failure effects us all I would have campaigned the DAR to NOT pass the plane for flight. I know the plane was abandoned for some time shortly after. I was very young at the time this happened, but if a post asked a question about this engine I could have answered down to the last nut and bolt to prevent it happening again. Good factual comments as to why something will or won't work is all we really need, personal preference can come in as a recomendation after the reasoned comments. Thanks to all the moderators, but rember the comments about Cesar's wife. Cheers
Bill Jepson
 
Two forums?

One possible option might be to have two alternative engine forums. Keep this one "open" as it is now, and create a second one titled "Alternative Engines - Moderated" or similar. The Moderated forum would be used for constructive conversation, no rants slams, insults, or otherwise unproductive posts allowed. Those can go in the other forum as they do now.

I can see two ways of moderating the forum, both of which I believe are supported by the software that runs this board:

1) Delete/Edit posts after they are made as they are now.

2) All posts must be reviewed before they are allowed to be posted to the forum. When someone posts a message, it essentially goes into a holding area, and once reviewed by the moderator, is either posted as-is, edited then posted, or simply deleted.

The driving force behind this request is to have a place where we can productively discuss problems and solutions for non-traditional engines.

An example of a non-productive post - "My friends buddy had a Subaru in his plane and could never make it work, so they must all be ****. Don't install one or you'll die".

An example of a productive post - "My friends buddy has a Subaru in his plane, and is having a problem with Y. Can anyone offer advice to help him?" -or- "This is the solution that my friends buddy found with this particular problem, and here are the details in case it might help someone else".

Personally I think this is a rather extreme solution to the problem, but I think it is obvious by the behaviour that we've seen in the alternative engine forum over the past few years that we can't rely on people's common decency when posting here. IF we want to retain the alt engine knowledge and possibly even encourage others to come back, we need to take more extreme measures than have been done previously.

Rather than just one person trying to take up the moderation load for the moderated alt engine forum, perhaps we can get a few pro-alt engine people to work together and spread the load.

I'll be the first to volunteer, but I know I don't have time to do it on my own.
 
I appreciate all the suggestions on moderating the alt. engine area, and I have used that input while considering all options.

In the end, and after talking with Ross F. about the duties involved, I've decided to give him moderator rights. Just like all the moderators - same rights. No special treatment.

The goal here is civility and respect across the entire board (rules), and since Ross knows alt. engines better than most and comes across as a level headed, good-man-in-a-storm kinda guy, I'm sure he'll add value and knowledge to the community. No need to restrict that to only one area.

The moderators make this board what it is, and I can't thank them enough for making it unique on the web.

Again, thanks for all the input.

Best,
Doug (owner)
 
Last edited:
DeltaRomeo said:
In the end, and after talking with Ross F. about the duties involved, I've decided to give him moderator rights.
Click to expand...

I can't think of a better choice - good call! I'm impressed that you convinced him to take the job! :)

-Dj
 
DanH said:
Indeed it does. May I also point out Sam's ultralight experience, with two-stroke engines no less?

Seems like that covers most of aviation's oppressed minorities....and I assure all he is not a bashful moderator ;)
Click to expand...

I did not know Sam was a 2 stroker also! I have many 100's of hours, and 3 engine outs in 2 strokers! :eek:

Congrats to Ross for the Moderator position. Good call DR! It's Friday after noon so which one is buying? :confused:


;)
 
Last edited:
Geico266 said:
I did not know Sam was a 2 stroker also! I have many 100's of hours, and 3 engine outs in 2 strokers! :eek:

Congrats to Ross for the Moderator position. Good call DR! It's Friday after noon so which one is buying? :confused:


;)
Click to expand...

Three Rotax 2-stroke engine seizures (one airborne restart with immediate return to runway, one landing straight-away on a long runway, the other in a farm lot.....:eek:).

I assure you....once you have seen the prop come to a stop at a time when you didn't intend......your outlook on flying will be changed forever......
 
deej said:
An example of a non-productive post - "My friends buddy had a Subaru in his plane and could never make it work, so they must all be ****. Don't install one or you'll die".

An example of a productive post - "My friends buddy has a Subaru in his plane, and is having a problem with Y. Can anyone offer advice to help him?" -or- "This is the solution that my friends buddy found with this particular problem, and here are the details in case it might help someone else".
Click to expand...

No, I do not even want to be around a forum in which post/replies are hidden until viewed by moderation that can be severely biased. I'm already in a forum like that (not this one, thank heavens!).

When it comes to what I have written about my own "buddy's" Subaru, in this forum, it has all been factual, and not just implications. And BTW, his installation is not the same as Ross's. I know that...........because of what Ross has written here.

L.Adamson ---- RV6A
 
The VAF just gets better....

...because of wisdom and fairness. Thanks Doug and Ross for accepting the offer...great choice!

Best,
 
pierre smith said:
VAF just got better.........
......because of wisdom and fairness. Thanks Doug and Ross for accepting the offer...great choice!

Best,
Click to expand...

Pierre, you are a true craftsman in the art of wordsmithing.

I think you just expressed the feelings of many VAFers.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top