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Flight test area

BlackRV7

BlackRV7

Well Known Member
I'm scheduling my volunteer DAR inspection and would like a group response I could present for a larger test flight area.

Backgound, I will be flying a slow built, pre punched RV-7, experimental O-360 that I built up, Hartzell constant speed prop, twin slick mags, carby. All electric, no vac., I am a commercially trained (no check ride), instrument rated, private pilot with high performance and complex endorsements. In addition, I'll have my tailwheel endorsement.

Since I will be flying with new ECI jugs and will be breaking them in, I really don't want to have to fly in circles with a 25NM radius of my home airport. Plus, the way I see it, I might be able to visit ONE other airport. What is a desirable test range to ask for given the speed of these airplanes? I would really like to be able to print this thread off for my inspection so a number of replies would be appreciated.

Thanks for the help gang in getting this far, the real fun is about to begin!!
 
Probably not what you wanted to hear, but...
I'm nearing the end of my phase I and have a 300nm area. I must say that about 50nm would have been plenty. I haven't spent much time just flying circles as I've been quite busy with flight testing, most within about 18mi of the home field. Some people comment that by the end of 40hrs you're board of the same box, but I didn't find this to be the case. I didn't need much space since I have spent most of my time testing flight characteristics and "reliability". Which brings up another concept. I sure didn't want to be that far from home if something didn't work out right during testing.
Just a data point from my 38hrs of phase I.
 
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40nm

Is all I was given. I requested 200nm.

From what I found out, it really depends on the DAR you are using. My next door neighbor had an FSDO rep out to do his inspection, and requested pretty much the entire state of TX for his testing - and got it, along with some cross country corridor to the middle of Mississippi.

Another DAR in my area regularly gives out a 150nm (or larger) radius with the statement that fast airplanes need lots of room to stretch their legs.

I requested 200nm radius from the DAR I used and he responded with only a 40nm one without even asking the FSDO. He just said that there's no way the FSDO would even consider it. Not so great service for the $800 bucks I dropped.
 
Hmm...I got the 25nm radius plus one airport that's about 30nm out. There are about 6 or 7 airports in my test area though so I'm learning them well. I requested 40nm. I went with the reasonable approach and should have just thrown a red herring out there to see what would happen. DAR said it's not his fault though, the FSDO wouldn't go any larger than that. Got a 40 hour flyoff too. My autopilot's getting a good workout making all those turns!
 
would shopping around help?

Dana, our local FSDO inspector had a canned map and set of coordinates for the flyoff area. They were a little more restricive that my request but perfectly ok. It was about 70 nm long but only 30 nw wide because we were squeezed between the Shennandoah mountains and the ADIZ. There were 4 or 5 airports in the area.

What is the custom in your area? Check with others, check your DAR before hand, if you don't like the answer, call the FSDO. You have speed, want to do altitude work, cruising, generate real performance numbers, lots of reasons that may interest them, etc.

He did mention that there was an extra 3 or 5 miles allowance but I don't remember his rationale, something about the airport operating area counts if the edge is in your area, perhaps. If I see him, I will ask.

He also was very pointed, he believed that outside, the insurance would not pay.

Good luck, John.
 
I agree that it will be different, depending on the DAR you use. So, ask him/her before you hire them. I talked to several DARs before I settled on one. My issues were price, availability, knowledge on the type aircraft as well as test area and willingness to work with me on the paper work. Also, ask some of the local RVers and see who they used and what their experience was like. By the way, don't limit yourself to RV builders. There are a lot of other experimentals around who use the same DARs and they will also have a lot of input for you.
 
I presented my DAR with a custom (non 25NM radius) test area and gave him three safety related justifications for my request:

First, I wanted numerous fields within the area, just in case my home field had adverse winds and I had to "land out" at a field with runways configured differently.

Second, I pointed out to the DAR that the 25 mile radius would put me in the pattern at Atlanta/Hartsfield and I didn't think that was appropriate.

Third, there are several other controlled fields within 25NM of my home field, but using them implies more crowded areas, and I preferred to fly off test hours over rural areas.

The DAR gave me the area I requested. I got to know it very well. ;-) In hindsight, I should have asked for a larger area.
 
50nm

My DAR worked with the FAA to permit a 50nm test area due to the higher cruise speeds of the RV-8. 25nm probably is just fine for the shorter 25 hour sessions that some guys get with the factory Lycoming and the certified Sesenich fixed pitch prop, and if your test program goes well with few or no squawks then the 40 hours gets to be overkill.

I went through my test program fairly quickly as there were no surprises and after about 25 hours or so I was thankful that I could roam around in a larger test area and practice landing at all different types of fields.

I live in the DC area and am based just outside of the ADIZ, so I asked for my area to be centered on Culpeper, VA instead and got a 50nm ring which gave me lots of ability to stay outside the congested DC area and stay out in the country to the west. Lots of good alternate emergency fields and I can keep out of ATC's hair during the test phase.
 
Kyle got it right. Ask for something reasonable and you'll probably get it. I had hills, MOA's and a class B south and east, so asked for more area north and west. I also asked for ALL airports in my area for landing. I had to talk that one through, but the DAR agreed. I had a one degree by one degree square (about 40 by 60 miles) of open country and was happy with it. I did get to know it AWFULLY well!

Bob Kelly
 
thanks

Ok, as I read it I may be lucky to get 50, hope for 40 and just grin and bear 25.

If he gives me 50 I can get to 13 different airports, 25 and I can get to ONE other airport :eek: I'm going big and asking for the "sky"......pun intended ;)
 
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Dana,
I was given a 50nm radius from any airport within
50 nm from my home base (DLZ). I offset to the
north,(MNN) to stay away from the congested area
around Columbus, OH. This worked out fine for me.

When do we get some pictures of your RV-7?
Tom Webster
 
Flight Test Areas

See FAA Order 8130.2F. (Change 3 is current as of this writing.)

Paragraph 135 (starts on page 132) and Paragraph 152 (starts on page 160).

"152. FLIGHT TEST AREAS.
a. General. Section 91.319(b) requires that an unproven aircraft be assigned to a flight test area. The assigned test area is prescribed in accordance with ? 91.305. The FAA, when requested, should assist applicants in selecting areas that comply with ? 91.305. The FAA is required to evaluate each application to determine that the flight test area does not exceed that which is reasonably required to accomplish the program. Actions pertaining to flight test areas must be coordinated with the nearest office of the Air Traffic Service."

The bold highlight is mine.

Most FSDOs have approved areas. IF you can justify a larger area that is NOT over populated areas you MAY get it.
 
Area

Dana:

I requested and got a 100nm radius from my airport. One thing to use in trying to justify a larger area, is to get a to-from route to a known aerobatic box so as to be legal when you do your acro testing.

Ask around. Some guys will work with you if they realize how small a 25nm area really is at 170-180 mph.
 
The test area is generally left up to the DAR as long as it is reasonable. For aircraft in the RV speed range I typically give a radius of 75 nautical miles plus a corridor to 2 airports outside this area. If the applicant has a particular request, I can usually work it out, again, as long as it is reasonable.
 
Go bigger

My dar designated a test area bounded by a series of airports encompassing central arizona. He did this after consulting with me for my input. You are paying for his services, and it's not unreasonable to expect a say in this important matter. Toward the end of my 40 hrs I was glad to have some territory to roam. Also, plan your budget! 40 hrs at mostly full rich X $4.20ish/gallon!!yikes!

Good Luck
 
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Go bigger and you'll be a longer leg from home when stuff doesn't smell right. Big flight test areas are overrated imho. Stay close to good landing areas and stay focussed on the TASK at hand. It's not a joyride.
 
While I realize the flight test regimen is not just play time, I would like the ability to visit other airports. This could be incorporated in landing at 4-5 other airports in the same morning thereby learning the different crosswind characteristics, visual cues and just general different characteristics of other airports. There's a big difference for me with 25nm (one airport) and 50 nm (13 airports). Plus heck, I'd just like to see something different. I'm going to try and get 50 and a corridor out somewhere after say 25 hours would be sweet.
 
Agreed....

dan said:
Go bigger and you'll be a longer leg from home when stuff doesn't smell right. Big flight test areas are overrated imho. Stay close to good landing areas and stay focussed on the TASK at hand. It's not a joyride.
Click to expand...

I agree with Dan in this respect for the first five to ten hours anyway. Remind your DAR that you're going three miles a minute and 25 miles is covered in 8 minutes or less. If you draw a reasonable 40 to 50 mile pattern away from big controlled areas, mostly over open or sparsely populated areas with available airports, a reasonable DAR should well consider it.

Since you're going to be alone on these flights, be sure and tell a friend exactly where you're going and when to expect you back. Y' never know.

Regards,
Pierre
 
BlackRV7 said:
While I realize the flight test regimen is not just play time, I would like the ability to visit other airports. This could be incorporated in landing at 4-5 other airports in the same morning thereby learning the different crosswind characteristics, visual cues and just general different characteristics of other airports. There's a big difference for me with 25nm (one airport) and 50 nm (13 airports). Plus heck, I'd just like to see something different. I'm going to try and get 50 and a corridor out somewhere after say 25 hours would be sweet.
Click to expand...
See, this is a common misconception in my opinion. Dana, I totally agree with you about wanting to gain those experiences in your airplane. But let's be honest, what you're talking about is stuff FOR THE PILOT, not for the aircraft.

Phase One is FOR THE AIRCRAFT. The task is to shake out all the squawks, to expand the various envelopes in a controlled manner, and to ensure that the AIRCRAFT is safe to operate in a less restricted way -- with passengers and in not-so-uncongested areas.

I hear about pilots clicking on the autopilot and reading a book (or manual) during Phase One. I don't get it! You have so much WORK to do during Phase One, I just can't see anybody getting it done completely in 25 hours, or sometimes in 40 hours, unless you really work at it. There is a LOT to be done, and I recommend taking it seriously...treating it like a MISSION, not a joyride.

Yes, some of it is for the pilot to familiarize himself with the airplane...for sure! But in a way, the pilot should already be extremely familiar with the airplane's traits before he ever leaves the ground with it. Transition training, a lot of mental prep -- IN the cockpit before you ever fly it -- etc., go a long way to accomplishing that goal with reduced risk. Then when you do finally fly it, you don't have to work on cockpit familiarization during critical times.

Just my 2 cents!
 
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I think we are both kinda preaching to the choir here Dan. While, yes I realize the importance of expanding the airplane envelope, and will take the test period seriously, there are aspects of the test period that do lend themselves to aircraft familiarization in addition to airplane testing. Do a little testing, do a little expanded familiarization. Yes, it is a crawl, walk, run scenario. If I get limited to 25nm, I got ONE freaking other airport to land at, I at least want the options to fly and tweak, to check the squawks but be able to sneak out a little more when I deem it safe and practical. Land somewhere else and shoot the breeze with other pilots within a 50nm mile range, then take off and do more testing per the plan. I know I would be more apt to go fly if mother would just cut the apron strings a little bit. I will take the testing period seriously and document the entire procedure so yes, we are talking the same language. Man, how much is this paperwork going to weigh before I get it inspected :eek:
 
Pretend you're a test pilot. On a MISSION, do test pilots fly somewhere and shoot the breeze with other pilots?

I'll say this and then I'll be done preaching. During Phase One:

- Force yourself to FOCUS.
- Don't trust that airplane or any of the systems.
- Do your "tweaking" at your home base (barring emergency landings elsewhere).
- Stay close to your home base.
- Get the job done.

After Phase One, you have an INFINITE area and the ultimate of freedoms. If you DO YOUR JOB during Phase One then you will have a wonderful experience thereafter. If you skimp on ANYTHING during Phase One, then once you leave the "nest" you are taking a risk. With family in the other seat(s).

It's about ATTITUDE. Not a shoot-the-breeze attitude. Sorry, I'm probably alienating myself here, but my feeling is -- until that airplane has proven itself and you've gone through all of your test cards and checked all the boxes, it's not time to play yet. There will be LOTS of time to play AFTERWARD.
 
Out in the Wild West...

A local RV-9A got an area that was over 200 miles radius (but clear of PHX Class B)... he even flew to Las Cruces to check out cross-country cruise conditions in his phase 1 area...

Note that a 25nm radius would only give him 3 public airports in range, with one being in a Class C. A 50 nm radius would give him about 8...

I guess living in the desert does have some advantages.... :)

gil in Tucson
 
Jamie said:
Hmm...I got the 25nm radius plus one airport that's about 30nm out. There are about 6 or 7 airports in my test area though so I'm learning them well. I requested 40nm. I went with the reasonable approach and should have just thrown a red herring out there to see what would happen. DAR said it's not his fault though, the FSDO wouldn't go any larger than that. Got a 40 hour flyoff too. My autopilot's getting a good workout making all those turns!
Click to expand...
It's kind of like a NASCAR race...go fast, turn left!
 
I had a 50 mile radius

But almost all of my testing could have been done easily in a 25 mile radius.
In fact most of my testing flights were only about 1 hour long and then I would return to the airport and check the data collected. The first couple of flights were longer, being that I was breaking in the engine, but I still didn't need to get far from home for that.

If you want to collect good flight performance data, remember you will need to fly a triangle or box. Fly straight, when stable take measurements, turn to new heading and do it again. Even at 200 mph you are not going to leave the 50 mile circle.

Kent
 
Where or who has a good flight test plan? Hopefully I will be starting mine shortly and I was looking for a good plan.
 
Big Area

Dana, I hope you get a big area and I know you will use it wisely. In some of the later cards, it would be nice to fly 15 minutes west to clear skys to do high altitude work, or fly 15 minutes north to get away from turebulence induced by the hills, or find a runway where the sudden crosswinds crop up at home. And when you finish a card and need a little break, you can land out in friendly territory to visit, have a cool drink, walk around, talk to the buds. Review the next card, then off you go. No reason to fly back to your place. I feel guilty. I enjoyed my space to the fullest. Hope I was safe. Regards, John.
 
John C said:
Dana, I hope you get a big area and I know you will use it wisely. In some of the later cards, it would be nice to fly 15 minutes west to clear skys to do high altitude work, or fly 15 minutes north to get away from turebulence induced by the hills, or find a runway where the sudden crosswinds crop up at home. And when you finish a card and need a little break, you can land out in friendly territory to visit, have a cool drink, walk around, talk to the buds. Review the next card, then off you go. No reason to fly back to your place. I feel guilty. I enjoyed my space to the fullest. Hope I was safe. Regards, John.
Click to expand...


I appreciate all the comments and all have valuable information. My "problem" is my home airport is bounded on the east by the army depot where they store nerve gas, they have problems with you flying over there, to the northeast is the city of Richmond, to the north is Lexington, about 15 miles to the south I start getting into some mountains. If I get 25, I can only "go west young man" to that previously mentioned ONE airport. I have seen, by all the posts, there seems to be tremendous variations in time spent aloft, ie., Dan has posted on his website he did 5+ one day (and probably more days as he burnt off his 25.2 hours in not time) and a limit to one hour by others. In addition, and I think this is a big one, different parts of the country. What works for some don't work well for others, simply due to the lay of the land. Safe and practical, as I said before.
 
Late to the discussion here Dana, but I think one of the interesting things to take away is that the more detailed your test program (the one that you show your DAR), the more likely you are to get what you want. In other words, the process that you have gone through in justifying a specific area ("I need this area to conduct this particular test program, and this is why...") is more likely to get exactly what you want, because it shows why you want what you want. If you just say "I want a big area because RV's are fast, and I want to visit other airports because I'm going to be bored" (No one would write that, I know....it's just an example...!), you're not likely to get much sympathy. If you show that you want to conduct a long saw-tooth climb on flight number XX and that doing it in a straight line will give better data, but it needs so many miles....it shows that you have a plan and have done your homework. Due diligence gets a lot of points in my book!

Of course, once you have your area, you can fly the test program however you want! :)

Paul
 
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