sc_pilot
Active Member
You ordered August ‘23 and received a crating date? Wow! I ordered June ‘23 and even the day before the status portal closed… I never recieved a potential crating date.
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Engine prices
- Thread starter Michael Burbidge
- Start date
scottmillhouse
Well Known Member
It was a legacy ULS kit so most was available. Rumor had it that they had the ULS engines in warehouse (someone touring Vans supposedly saw them). The legacy avionics was mostly in stock. Ordered the same time and received in October with only one BO component that was just received. Just saw there is a 12 thread on the subject that I missed. Still figuring out my way around this new format.
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I ordered June 6, 2023 and no news.You ordered August ‘23 and received a crating date? Wow! I ordered June ‘23 and even the day before the status portal closed… I never recieved a potential crating date.
they are still in negotiations with Lycoming trying to put together a new contract for those of us with engines on order. At the creditors meeting, they stated that they expected to have something out to us by the end of this week and that from their chosen words, it sounds like there will be an increase in price (did not allude to how much if any) but that they are also trying to get Lycoming to shore up their shipping schedule so that we are not in limbo so much.
Last I heard, they have now extended that expectation to get info out to next week.
At the creditor's meeting they did say that we will have 30 days from receipt of the change to our contract to decline and file a claim (even if that extended past the Feb 12 date. So if they do not get us the information prior to Feb 12, we will still have 30 days to decline the new contract and submit a claim from the date of receipt of the notice.
Last I heard, they have now extended that expectation to get info out to next week.
At the creditor's meeting they did say that we will have 30 days from receipt of the change to our contract to decline and file a claim (even if that extended past the Feb 12 date. So if they do not get us the information prior to Feb 12, we will still have 30 days to decline the new contract and submit a claim from the date of receipt of the notice.
Thanks so much for that, Scott. Finally a full explanation of how acceptance or decline of a new contract relates to filing a claim. And especially the new information that we will have 30 days to file a claim even if it's after Feb 12. All very important to know.
Also looking for info in 12 powerplant. Did Vans publish / say that info somewhere about finding out Feb or is that an assumption? Similar to others, I'd really like to know the final price of powerplant and avionics before I commit to my revised order.
I paid powerplant deposit in March 2023 and was originally scheduled for Dec 2023 crating. However, I'm also still awaiting Finish kit which was originally scheduled for crating Sep 2023 (now pending revised order acceptance).
I think it has been announced/known: they spent all that money that wasn't theirs on operating expenses.
BillL
Well Known Member
It ain't over until it is over. And it is not over yet. Vans still has decisions to make regarding the structure. They could spin off the pass through business and keep the overhead low, but that means more $$ burden on the manfacturing side of the operation, i.e. the core. On paper, the manufacturing portion always looks like the lowest margin part of the company. These are the same decisions hundreds of, now closed, companies had to make after Jimmy Carter (just a time frame). The philosophy of low pass-through costs that Vans has had will not fly in the hard economic world. If the markup is not equal or more than overhead costs then it is losing money. So if that markup was 10% it could become 20%, or a 10% increase in price. This is just my guess, as we don't know what the markup of Lycoming engines has been.
All this is to say, that the engine price increases would not likely be 30%, and it could allow Lycoming to form a new sales unit for direct experimental sales with an RV discount thus allowing Lycoming to get that mark up.
Personally, I would either delay the engine purchase while gathering funds for the desirable engine or just bite the bullet and proceed. It all depends on personal cash flow situation, as the best outcome is to finish the airplane then sell if necessary. A flying airplane that survives the phase I testing will be worth more with an airworthiness certificate.
All this is to say, that the engine price increases would not likely be 30%, and it could allow Lycoming to form a new sales unit for direct experimental sales with an RV discount thus allowing Lycoming to get that mark up.
Personally, I would either delay the engine purchase while gathering funds for the desirable engine or just bite the bullet and proceed. It all depends on personal cash flow situation, as the best outcome is to finish the airplane then sell if necessary. A flying airplane that survives the phase I testing will be worth more with an airworthiness certificate.
I'm in a similar boat. I paid engine kit deposit for the -12 in early May 2023 and was expecting the engine in January-ish 2024 until the wheels fell off. I'm disappointed that we haven't heard anything on engines and feel the Rotax kits are lower priority than the Lycoming. I am wondering if it's taking a while because they want to propose an alternate solution where Vans really isn't involved with making this kit and they find someone else to provide it. Maybe the -12 is unique in that most people build it E-LSA and that would require Vans to still be involved with "making" that kit.
Did they happen to say if they expect to hear about Lycoming VS Rotax engines? I also asked them the same question by email (specific to Rotax), and I just got back a generic reply saying they didn't know yet.
I think the margin on engines was likely more like 2% than 10%…. But likely headed to something closer to 10%.
If Van’s had a 10% margin this would be easier.
Assume for a minute an average $45,000 lycoming engine. Vans collected a 25% deposit, $11,250.
I am betting they were keeping $1000 to $2000 per engine. So now to deliver it they have to come up with about $10k to add to the money from the customer in order to get Lycoming paid.
If their margin was 10% ($4500) then they ”only” need to come up with $6750 per engine.
Anxious to see where it lands. I have skin in this game and it is the one big question mark I still have about how this will all work out. We know it will cost more. Question is how much more?
walkman
Well Known Member
idk if 390 kits are avail but if you can build an airplane, an engine is easy peasy. Biggest thing with an engine is surgical clean-room cleanliness and read the instructions twice at least. You probably won't even need any additional tools.
390 kits are NOT available. As per Aerosport Power. They do have access to IO-375's, but they are parallel valve engines and would require some work to make baffling, etc.
We now know 442 engine order deposits. Unlike what they did with the blue aluminum they can't jack the price up past that of other suppliers. I guess the question is how much of the deposits are they going to take?
Not until another engine supplier is on the market with comparable hardware, and they know that.
But on the other hand, it's completely a luxury item. Many potential builders will be looking at Rotax powered builds, or deciding they have been priced out altogether.
PaulvS
Well Known Member
Is there another Lycoming dealer apart from Van's for experimental engines? Certified Lycomings are available from other dealers, but prices are much higher than the OEM deal through Van's. E.g. a certified O-320 is over $70K, whereas Van's pre-BK price for the experimental version was around $37K.
I'm guessing that the experimental Lycoming OEM deal may be unique to Van's and is quite strictly controlled because there can be only one new engine purchase for a RV kit serial number. If the only alternative for a new Lycoming engine is certified, then Van's may be able to increase pricing significantly and still be competitive.
I'm guessing that the experimental Lycoming OEM deal may be unique to Van's and is quite strictly controlled because there can be only one new engine purchase for a RV kit serial number. If the only alternative for a new Lycoming engine is certified, then Van's may be able to increase pricing significantly and still be competitive.
IO 360, ready to assemble. All YT Divco and Aircraft Specialty parts. $17,000. New 390 $91-97000. IO 360 with a little hot rodding will put out the same power as 390 for a LOT less money.
The first time a RV14 with 360 wins a race against a 390 powered 14 is going to be very embaressing for the guy with the 390.
The first time a RV14 with 360 wins a race against a 390 powered 14 is going to be very embaressing for the guy with the 390.
If you look at Glasair (who also sells IO-390s) prices are pretty comparable to Vans price right before they filed. I am sure that they have the same rules, mandated by Lycoming, about only selling engines to people who are building their planes. Can Van’s raise prices on engines? Sure, but it would certainly impact the number of builders based on the perception of Van’s charging more being unfair and the total cost to build.
So, this is new to me. Are you saying that we can buy an engine KIT and build it ourselves? If so, could you tell me how to find out more about this, and where to look? Could you build an IO-540? And if you save this much then why hasn't everyone been doing this all along? Any additional info you could provide would be appreciated.
pitts12driver
Member
Based on conversations with knowledgeable sources, I'm expecting that my deposit is gone, and the price of my $42k IO-360-M1B will increase $8k-$10k. This will represent a $20k swing, which is substantial. I built a Super Cub in 2016 and paid $28k for an IO-375 from Aero Sport Power: Engine prices have far outstripped inflation. Some participants in this thread have confidently suggested other well-known providers as options. I've gotten written quotes from 3 of those vendors in the past two weeks, and the earliest delivery date is 14 months from now. The last communication I received on my engine (which has been on order for a year) prior to the bankruptcy, was that it would be delivered the first week of December, 2023. Obviously that didn't happen - and I did receive a subsequent note suggesting that the earliest anything might happen is an "engine build slot" beginning August 1, 2024. I have zro confidence in anything Vans says at this point and IF there was a viable option I would run to it. I have looked for rebuild candidates, and even chased one lead on an overhauled engine in the Nordics. Quite literally the only thing standing between me and flying at this point is an engine...
newt
Well Known Member
Lycoming has parts catalogs for each engine family (e.g., IO-360 here: https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/attachments/O-360-A%20Parts%20Catalog%20PC-306-1.pdf)
They itemize the part numbers you need down to the last washer.
If you buy a run-out engine core you'll have a crank and a case, which are the two most expensive parts; And you'll have the cylinders, which can be used for exchange credit on new or reconditioned ones. The case and crank will need dimensioning and machining, so send them to Divco/Aircraft Specialties, and if they come back with the right color tags you're good to go.
There are plenty of RVs flying around with engines assembled by the builder. If you have the skill, patience, and attention to detail to build the rest of the airplane, there's no reason why you can't build the engine too.
- mark
I have been watching this Youtube video series of how to disassemble and overhaul a Lycoming engine. Given the very high cost of a brand new aircraft engine at the moment, I am definitely considering rebuilding engine myself if I plan to build another EAB.
This link is for those out there who are just starting their RV builds and still have many years to shop for an engine core and to rebuild it. I personally know a RV7 and a RV8 builder who rebuilt their engines by themselves. It can be done.
This link is for those out there who are just starting their RV builds and still have many years to shop for an engine core and to rebuild it. I personally know a RV7 and a RV8 builder who rebuilt their engines by themselves. It can be done.
Majorpayne317641
Well Known Member
I have done it. Be careful expecting to reuse your crank on a run out engine. Ask me how I know. All in was $25k for me to build it myself. The factory new crank turned into a $8k addition to my build. It came out better than a factory new engine with my own personalized color scheme. I also used all new hardware and studs which runs up the bill too.
It is not a kit. It is a completely overhauled engine is pieces ready for assembly. Just an example of how much can potentially be saved by careful shopping.
If you buy a core it is possible to get a guarantee that case and crank can be overhauled and yellow tagged.
0 540 cores and airworthy mid time engines seem to be more available currently than the four cylinder engines.
The 0 360 engines were not very common until the Cherokee 180 around 1963. The 540's go back a couple years earlier. A relatively large number of Piper Aztecs were built starting around 1961. Pre 63 were carburetor engines, 63 and later fuel injection.
It's becoming very clear to me that to have a future of recreational flying in a single engine piston aviation there are two options: 1) Be very wealthy 2) Be very knowledgeable on how to maintain and repair your plane yourself. Even if I was #1, I would still prefer #2.
I looked at Divco/Aircraft Specialty sites and it's awesome to know that they are out there. Can't think of anything cooler than building the engine I fly behind.
Thanks for sharing that info.
Good luck to everyone going thru this mess.
I looked at Divco/Aircraft Specialty sites and it's awesome to know that they are out there. Can't think of anything cooler than building the engine I fly behind.
Thanks for sharing that info.
Good luck to everyone going thru this mess.
This is all good to know. I like the idea of building the engine, but there is certainly a lot to still determine, especially as to how much it will cost. But it's good to hear of those who have been successful at it. I'll keep looking into it.
A major piece of aviation news this morning was that Hartzell has just raised their prices up to 2X what they were, after the company was bought by a private equity firm. Not only the props we need come from them, but the SkyTec starters (as much as 3X the previous price, according to the AvWeb article), and possibly other stuff. This might be the final nail in the coffin of some builders' projects. All the more reason we might need a way to save money on the engine.
Of course we don't yet know how much our already-ordered new engines will cost...
A major piece of aviation news this morning was that Hartzell has just raised their prices up to 2X what they were, after the company was bought by a private equity firm. Not only the props we need come from them, but the SkyTec starters (as much as 3X the previous price, according to the AvWeb article), and possibly other stuff. This might be the final nail in the coffin of some builders' projects. All the more reason we might need a way to save money on the engine.
Of course we don't yet know how much our already-ordered new engines will cost...
walkman
Well Known Member
You could buy a superior engine, but we all know what a fantastic product they make and how they stand behind it and support their customers, not.
walkman
Well Known Member
http://www.meyette.us/SuperiorTextPics.htm
As far as why people aren't doing it, especially people building their own airplane, your guess is as good as mine. I suspect people thing that an engine is a black box of magik or are just scared of it for some reason.
Yes many people got raked over the hot coals with the Superior crankshaft fiasco. Before Superior Air Parts were owned by the Chinese, they were pretty good to deal with in my experience.
Was there ever any resolution to the crankshaft issue? I've searched but never found an AMOC, or much discussion at all in the last 2 years or so.
B&C starter and alternator is an option or just buy an automotive unit and build your own mount. Prop options are Whirlwind and MT for constant speed or many options for fixed pitch.
Hartzell may very well find out that they do not have a captive audience but have no audience at all.
AirpowerInc.com is the largest Lycoming Distributor. Arlington TX. They have been in business for decades.
Desert Rat
Well Known Member
When I bought a prop, The Hartzell B.A. through vans was around $8,500. The whirlwind 300 series was $12,500. Now Whirlwind doesn't even list their pricing, just says call for a quote. I don't know about MT, but for the B.A.Hartzell could almost double the price and still be in the ballpark of Whirlwind.
I, like you, have been watching but have not seen one. IF someone has, they need to post a link so everyone knows.
Pretty predictable and very sad.....dang.
It was always expensive to build an experimental, it's definitely a rich man's game now.
Trouble is, we who are halfway into the build didn't become rich men overnight.
Some builders will have to find ways to cut corners safely and complete their projects, like pre-owned engines, etc...I'm retired and can't take the money with me...but I'm also looking at engine alternatives (I don't waste money, that's why I have money)...this has been painful for everyone with a skin in the game...nobody likes uncertainty...but when we finally finish our builds and look back at our planes, it will be worth it in the long run...just takes a bit longer...how do you eat an elephant? one bite at a time.
Lakava Star
Member
Thank you.
walkman
Well Known Member
Not that I'm aware of. I continue to fly my no problem. I've been out sailing and cruising anyway, and starting a new business, so no time to do anything about that very low on my priority list.
blaplante
Well Known Member
Watch
I was tempted to assemble it myself, but in the end I got a really good price from an engine shop to assemble my parts and run it on the stand.
If you can find a core / mid-time engine where they will guarantee that the case and crank will yellow tag that would be great. My crank failed inspection.
You need to be knowledgeable - or ask ... there are some gotchas out there. Some dash numbers of Lycomings had carbs mounted in funny spots (that won't work on a 7A for example), but you may be able to swap an oil sump and fix that issue. You need to know if the core is a hollow crank (can be setup for CS prop) or a solid crank (can't). There's things like helicopter engines, etc., etc. Don't limit yourself to looking for an o-360-a1a (for example) that'll limit you to a small set of engines. Instead figure out if that -z9q can be made to work. Oh, also beware that some Lycomings for twins are setup for contra rotation. But the information is out there. Previously mentioned overhaul manuals, parts manuals, Wikipedia, these forums, your EAA chapter, or even call Lycoming.
In my past I've overhauled a Corvair and a water cooled VW engine.
People have been doing this all along, but I'd say since pre-punched came along it has fallen by the wayside. About the same time as all new avionics, all glass cockpits, real leather interiors, etc. became the norm.
And yes, I toyed with the automotive engine idea for quite a while. After reading multiple incident reports where the home-brew water lines burst, resulting in off-field landings, that idea was shelved.
Lastly... one more idea --- find a partner and co-owner! Lots of people want an RV but can't commit to the time or total cost of building / owning.
Thanks so much for that extensive response, and for others' related comments, too. It's something to think about. I've built a car engine, so I have a bit of experience, albeit a long time ago. Of course I need to hear from Van's first, like a lot of us.
All good detailed points you make. I've seen a Lycoming document that spells out every difference between the various dash numbers of each particular engine, so that's a good start. In some cases it's just a tiny thing that's different, or something easily changed like you said. I'll keep researching, including all your suggestions. Sorry about your crank, by the way.
I'd really prefer the new IO-540 of course. Building it myself would add several months to the project (I'd be going really slowly), which gets me ever closer to being too old to finish.
If that happens that'll be another partially-built RV-10 kit on the market that Van's doesn't get to sell.
It seems like it would really benefit Van's to work to get these engines to us without too big a price increase. Surely they would make more profit on a new full kit than an additional increase in the engine price over what's absolutely necessary. Especially with the new kit prices.
blaplante
Well Known Member
It will take months, but not months of your time. Ship the case to Divco. Get it back in a month or so. Same sort of thing with the crank. Ditto with sending out the rods, gears out for crack check. Cylinders... rebuild or bore and go oversize or just replace w/new. If replace w/new expect many months of waiting for parts. Cam and lifters - buy new parts.
It is mostly a task of being the general contractor - seeing all these sub-tasks get done and that you aren't missing some gasket when it is time to assemble it.
