BMI & OSA: New Hurdles To Jump Thru For Medical Certification

[DanBaier]

The hazard here is that the FAA could agree, and then place "no-medical" pilots under the Sport Pilot restrictions -

Actually, that's pretty much the way the AOPA / EAA petition would work. It wouldn't eliminate the Cl III; instead, it would generally allow a waiver for those who take on on line aeromedical course and have a driver's license. This waiver would only be good for Recreational Pilot (not Sport Pilot) limitations - day VFR under 10,000, fixed gear, 180 hp or less, no more than 4 seats but no more than pilot +1.

A lot of RVs would fit under that (as well as a lot of 152s, 172s, Cherokees, etc.).

I just renewed, but were the exemption to go through - I'm not so sure I wouldn't just opt out of Cl III medicals in the future.

Dan

 

[az_gila]

Actually, that's pretty much the way the AOPA / EAA petition would work. It wouldn't eliminate the Cl III; instead, it would generally allow a waiver for those who take on on line aeromedical course and have a driver's license. This waiver would only be good for Recreational Pilot (not Sport Pilot) limitations - day VFR under 10,000, fixed gear, 180 hp or less, no more than 4 seats but no more than pilot +1.

A lot of RVs would fit under that (as well as a lot of 152s, 172s, Cherokees, etc.).

I just renewed, but were the exemption to go through - I'm not so sure I wouldn't just opt out of Cl III medicals in the future.

Dan

Thanks for the clarification.... around here west bound cruise at 8,500 would really be a pain...

 

[MarkW]

I have now sent an email to both my congressman and senator to join the caucus. Neither were members.
Brian, 6'3-240 = 30 bmi

 

[Brantel]

I have now sent an email to both my congressman and senator to join the caucus. Neither were members.

Good job!

Brian, 6'3-240 = 30 bmi

Yes, my math was intentional...

Everyone needs to understand that due to the language in this memo on the new policy, it looks like they will be targeting a BMI of 30 or lower at some point since they have stated in that memo that they believe 30% of people with a BMI of 30 have OSA and they also state they plan to gradually lower the BMI limit until all pilots with undiagnosed OSA are found.

This thing has no bottom end limiter based on the language in that memo! 40 today will be 30 or less tomorrow....

Important quotes from the memo:

"OSA is almost universal in obese individuals who have
a body mass index over 40 and a neck circumference of
17 inches or more, but up to 30% of individuals with
a BMI less than 30 have OSA."

"Once we have appropriately dealt with every airman examinee
who has a BMI of 40 or greater, we will gradually expand the
testing pool by going to lower BMI measurements until we
have identified and assured treatment for every airman with
OSA"

 

[noelf]

I wonder if this will also apply to our military flight crews. Fighter jocks are one thing, but aircrew members in the back in the cabin doing "weenie" stuff are something else.

 

[John Owen]

EAA "on it"

This is, obviously, a BIG DEAL. This drive to search out obstructive sleep apnea is without precedent, as far as I can tell. BMI does not always predict OSA, as has been pointed out. The BIG DEAL is that when we start down this preventive medicine road and start mandating testing for possible disease states with minimal/no evidence of impact on aviation safety....where does it stop? How about smokers, people who are overdue colonoscopies, high cholesterol levels and on it goes? Do we do stress tests on every one with some of these factors? Where is line drawn? We are not arguing the "good medicine" of lifestyle changes but let's have a strong correlation with data that the specific condition is a threat to safety before mandating expensive testing and further overloading an overloaded special issuance process. GA does not need any more gut punches.

I am on the EAA aeromedical council (one of six volunteer pilots who are aerospace medicine physicians) and we are "on it" using our relationship with the FAA to, hopefully, influence this in a rational, favorable way. We have letters sent and contacts have been made. As usual, EAA works more behind the scenes but rest assured our/your concerns are being effectively addressed. Congressman Graves is my friend and congressman. I am sure that he would like your district's congressional assistance in this struggle.

Stay tuned.
Doc Owen
RV-8

 

[Leland]

Wakefulness testing

I have OSA (with a BMI of 22.5) and use a CPAP. To qualify for Medical Certification, I had to take a Wakefulness test. My sleep doctor required that I undergo four test periods of 40 minutes each, in complete darkness, although the FAA only required 20 minute periods. You can't take caffeine for the test nor can you nap between test periods. I wore 16-20 sensor electrodes during the tests. Of course you can't get a good night's sleep the night before because you are worrying about the test outcome.

The only good thing was that the doctor accepted Medicare reimbursement as full payment; otherwise it would have cost me $2000. My medical insurance would not have paid for testing.

 

[Eddie P]

Thanks Doc Owen, I very much appreciate your work on behalf of GA. PS, I don't have a dog in this specific dog race as my BMI is in the "normal" range (even though BMI is a joke really... for example, if we are athletic and visit the gym regularly we will be on the high side of "normal" BMI with muscle mass and bone density being on the positive side of healthy).

But we all know well enough that one out of whack unchallenged attempt begets new and numerous out of line attempts in the same category and class. It's high time to reign in this little corner of over reaching, over regulating and over bearing culture.

 

[ifixf15]

Tyranny

[text deleted...veering off into the political spectrum; S. Buchanan]

 

[DanBaier]

This is, obviously, a BIG DEAL. This drive to search out obstructive sleep apnea is without precedent ... I am on the EAA aeromedical council ...

Maybe this will turn out to be a hopelessly flawed idea that, in the end, serves as a basis to consider removing the CL III requirement altogether, or at the least, pushing the exemption petition to approval.

Christmas is not too far away!

Dan

 

[Low Pass]

You have to think like a bureaucrat to understand what's likely happening here. Seen it happen in other areas. (City commercial building permits go from 2-3 weeks to 5-6 MONTHS - because the recession killed commercial building). Can't be seen with no documents to review on my desk!

My guess - the aeromedical division staff is getting a little light on workload.

If we're going to push back on this unwarranted and unjustified limitation on our rights, we need to *make noise* with Congress. Don't whine about it or offer your conjecture as to why it's sorta OK, or this, or that. Write and call your congressmen.

 

[Andy J]

Long wait on special issuance medicals

My guess - the aeromedical division staff is getting a little light on workload.

I don't think so, my special issuance medical just took 2 months for them to process and that was with a clean bill of health from my doc and no meds involved. Fortunately, I did get them to ease up a little and allow my AME to issue the next one. This was not a sleep related case, but I just wanted to share the experience.

As my application neared my medical expiration I called to check, and asked to talk to one of the doctors that do the approval, they said they were very busy. I wasnt allowed to speak to anyone beyond who answered the phone and they couldnt tell me my position in line. In one call the person said they do try to get the 1st and 2nd class medicals processed prior to their expiration since these may affect the pilots employment.

Something sleep related: A friend is having to do a sleep study for his commercial drivers license medical!

 

[Brantel]

My guess - the aeromedical division staff is getting a little light on workload.

.

No way, last word I heard was that they were at least 8-10 weeks behind on SI renewals with over 9,000 in the backlog. I would hate to see the lead time on initial approvals.

Those of us that are lucky enough to have been granted an AASI (simple definition: waiver that lets the local AME renew the SI if everything looks ok) are real fortunate.

 

[DanH]

In the spirit of nonviolent civil disobedience, last night I had an extra scoop of ice cream on my pie.

 

[Brantel]

In the spirit of nonviolent civil disobedience, last night I had an extra scoop of ice cream on my pie.

.........

 

[Paul Tuttle]

No such luck...

Straight from the FAA's 2013 Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners:

Formula: weight (lb) / [height (in)]2 x 703
Calculate BMI by dividing weight in pounds (lbs) by height in
inches (in) squared and multiplying by a conversion factor of 703.
Example: Weight = 150 lbs, Height = 5'5" (65")
Calculation: [150 ? (65)2] x 703 = 24.96

Back in my hockey playing days I was 5'11", and 225 lbs with a measured body fat of 15%. According to the scale I was obese.
That may explain my level of play though.

 

[N941WR]

Back in my hockey playing days I was 5'11", and 225 lbs with a measured body fat of 15%. According to the scale I was obese.
That may explain my level of play though.

Same here Paul, now I'm down to 215 and trying to get down an extra 15. Too broken to skate much any more but do get out on the roller blades with my son every once in awhile. Go RED WINGS!

 

[videobobk]

My BMI is 28 as of last week, and I will keep it there as it has been for 40 years. I did talk to a very overweight pilot friend last evening, and he said they are doing the same thing with truck drivers, another license he holds. We aren't the only ones in the spotlight...

Bob

 

[FlyArmy]

This made the front page of foxnews.com. Hopefully it gets put to rest.

 

[Mike S]

Sounds like this all may be coming from DOT??

 

[TThurston]

Obese people driving cars

I'm so glad this issue was raised. I often drive my automobile on the interstate surrounded by other cars. I'm sure many of them are obese. Now that I'm aware that the obese drivers are likely to fall asleep and crash into me, I guess I'll just have avoid driving whenever there might be an obese driver out there in another car.

 

[az_gila]

Sounds like this all may be coming from DOT??

And we pilots are good test subjects with regular standard examinations.

It's someone science project - or PhD paper....

 

[Mountain Time]

Money....

I find it interesting that all of a sudden, over the last few years, the health expenditure industry has determined that a large percentage of the adult population suffers from a debilitating medical condition, greatly increasing the risks of heart attack, strokes, etc etc., and that this must be addressed by sleep studies (expensive, often not covered by insurance, and- so far as I know - relying on criteria that may not be agreed upon within the medical profession or properly vetted from an epidemiological standpoint) and expensive equipment that the alleged sufferers must use for the rest of their lives.

Just for the morbidly obese? Nope - though they get to be the initial targets, since they are used to being criticized and told they have lots of health problems (often correctly). But of course, we are then told that skinny people have lots of this problem too, so they need to be "evaluated."

We may have a higher percentage of significantly overweight people than in the past, but the idea that there has been a widespread, deadly medical condition present in our adult population for as long as there has been snoring? And that people are now falling asleep in their chairs during the day because of it?

I don't doubt that some people suffer from OSA and benefit greatly from treatment. But I don't buy the idea that it is a widespread condition that warrants this level of attention, or that it creates a significant hazard to others, in any context. I think the explosion in sleep apnea screening, diagnosis, treatment, etc. is simply a question of a health expenditure industry that sees BIG profits from classifying a big chunk of the population as sick, and then selling them equipment and followup care for the rest of their lives.

 

[N941WR]

One of my college roommates made left seat flying biz jets when we were about 28. He was thin as a rail, was very careful about what he ate, ran marathons, and kept very active. His BMI index would have been down about 2, he was that thin.

Then, the week before a big marathon he was out on his last run before the big event and he felt some chest pains. Two stints later he is out of a career and unemployed.

By the FAA standards presented even today he would pass his first class medical. As it turns out, his body is incapable of removing cholesterol so today he survives on a diet of shrubbery and doesn't fly.

What next, will we all have to submit our DNA for evaluation for something that "might" happen?

For those of you who don't think this impacts you, yes it does. If the FAA reduces the pilot population, like they are talking about, then all these nice shiny toys we are building or have built will drop in value. Then they will all be boxed up and sent overseas or to South America because they will be able to buy them for pennies on the dollar.

 

[jclark]

EAA looking at this as well ...

AOPA is already on it.

And so is EAA ...

http://eaa.org/news/2013/2013-11-20_eaa-medical-council-pans-faa-sleep-apnea-testing-proposal.asp


James
(Just back from my first EAA Board Meeting. Good stuff happening.)

 

[Snowflake]

If the FAA reduces the pilot population, like they are talking about, then all these nice shiny toys we are building or have built will drop in value. Then they will all be boxed up and sent overseas or to South America because they will be able to buy them for pennies on the dollar.

I predict a surge in backcountry flying by aircraft with no registration marks and on-board home-made radar jamming devices.

 

[John Owen]

CB,

You beat me to it. That was the reference and the news release for what we are doing on the EAA aeromedical council. I think that we have some traction.

Doc Owen
RV-8

 

[BobTurner]

I predict a surge in backcountry flying by aircraft with no registration marks and on-board home-made radar jamming devices.

Why backcountry? No registration? I think you would be shocked at the number of people at any given time who are flying illegally. Some simply forgot it was time to renew, some forgot they were 40 at their last medical, some know they have disqualifying conditions, some know they won't pass if they're honest so they lie, some just don't renew but keep flying.

My point is that all the rules in the world don't matter if there's no enforcement, and in fact there is very little. If pilots perceive this new rule as ridiculous some will just ignore the rules altogether.

 

[walkman]

Many of the previous posts make valid points about what appears to be a precipitous and perhaps overreaching policy. On the other hand, a male of average height with a BMI of 40 is approximately 100 lbs. overweight; morbidly obese. Most will have obstructive sleep apnea, and many will also be hypertensive and diabetic. If that describes you, I understand that you want to continue to fly, whether or not it is prudent. Would you want to be a passenger of such a pilot?

Several posters have commented on the shortcomings of the BMI. It is actually a reasonably good screening tool, even though it does not distinguish between an increase in fat versus muscle. The occasional power lifter or body builder packing an extra 50-100 lbs. of muscle is at nearly as much health risk as an individual carrying an equivalent amount of fat. The extra pounds put added stress on heart and lungs, either way. Very few people in this country with a BMI of 40 are not obese.

Flame suit on!

Jim Berry
RV-10

Its a nonesense measurement and is useless for the purpose for which it is being proposed.

I'm at exactly the same BMI now as I was 3 years ago, roughly 28. I have less than 14% body fat now (shooting for single digits), and have put on almost 15 lbs of muscle in those three years. It does not take into account anything to do with actual health, but purports to measure exactly that.

 

[walkman]

If the FAA reduces the pilot population, like they are talking about, then all these nice shiny toys we are building or have built will drop in value. Then they will all be boxed up and sent overseas or to South America because they will be able to buy them for pennies on the dollar.

I'm thinking I'll probably retire there anywhere It almost certainly won't be in the US!

 

[N15JB]

Its a nonesense measurement and is useless for the purpose for which it is being proposed.

I'm at exactly the same BMI now as I was 3 years ago, roughly 28. I have less than 14% body fat now (shooting for single digits), and have put on almost 15 lbs of muscle in those three years. It does not take into account anything to do with actual health, but purports to measure exactly that.

While BMI is not perfect, especially at lower BMIs, to state it is nonsense and useless is inaccurate. It is the rare individual with a BMI of 40 who is not morbidly obese. The risk of sleep apnea increases approximately 14% for each 1 point increase in BMI, and at a BMI of 40 the risk is essentially 100%.
I am unaware of data associating sleep apnea with aviation accidents, but it is well established that people with OSA have a much higher risk of auto and workplace accidents.

The FAA policy is misguided, but it is a mistake to underestimate the risks of an elevated BMI.

Congratulations on putting on 15 lbs of muscle. If your BMI stayed the same, that suggests that you also dropped 15 lbs of fat.

Jim Berry
RV-10

 

[grubbat]

Preceived safety at the cost of liberty

I'm all for improving our health through losing weight. I just have a problem with the gov't invoking added safety at the cost of my liberty. I guess since we are moving in a direction where the cost of healthcare is going to be on the back of the gov't, their justification for weight loss or any other item someone thinks up will just be up to me to either agree or give up flying. I wonder how long it will be before they say that eating three meals a day is too much and rice from China is what you should be eating instead of meat. Where does it stop?

Somehow I think I have fell out of the mainstream. I think I like liberty better....

 

[WhiskeyMike]

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/House-Addresses-FAA-Sleep-Apnea-Policy221023-1.html

Looks like someone is pushing the correct buttons...

 

[BillSchlatterer]

OSA is a problem like it or not .... personal experience

The FAA policy is misguided, but it is a mistake to underestimate the risks of an elevated BMI.

There is a large body of data supporting OSA with excess weight but the best data is personal. OSA is not just snoring, you literally stop breathing and wake with a large gasp. Your wife will be more relieved than you when you get on one ..... if you need one. I have been on CPAP for years, now weight 175 and still use it every night. I know of at least a dozen personal friends that use CPAP treatment and I know of NO ONE who has ever gone back. The immediate benefit is just too obvious. Ask around and see for yourself. That says more to me than any of the medical statistics.

The difference in getting a good nights sleep after years of not is like a drug! After the first night, you simply can't believe how good it is to truly sleep all night. Sure the mask seems bad but I have literally panicked when traveling and left some piece at home. It's great compared to lack of sleep.

Someone also commented that every one that goes to a sleep doctor seems to be diagnosed with OSA. That actually makes sense because sleep doctors are specialists, you go there because you have already been pre-diagnosed by your regular doctor who refers you. Heart specialists usually find heart problems, cancer specialists usually find cancer, etc. It's the process not any kind of medical scam. (BTW, OSA is one of the easiest things to diagnose because the signs are so easy to identify...ask the wives )

Having said all that, I am absolutely opposed to more FAA or governmental involvement in our personal lives. It's not the job of the government to decide what to regulate, their job is to regulate what we tell them to regulate. I know..... that's simplistic.....

OSA is real, see a doctor but do it for the right reasons.

My .02 and my personal experience.

 

[Brantel]

Today while attending what seems like the 12th followup visit to my sleep Dr.s office on the journey towards treatment for OSA, I saw a poster on the wall that said something like this:

"As many as 2 out of 3 patients with OSA that experience EDS (excessive daytime sleepiness) will continue to experience EDS even after being properly treated for OSA".....

All I can say is LOL!

I wish I had written down the reference.

 

[Mike S]

Brian, first off, it is good that you are getting tested/treated for OSA, BTDT.

After treatment---------CPAP or whatever, the FAA will want you to have a MWT--- Maintenance of Wakefulness Test, to see if you are having any issue with staying awake.

http://yoursleep.aasmnet.org/Topic.aspx?id=36

The test is a joke IMHO---------you are put in a bed in a dark room, and then you are supposed to stay awake, even though all your life you have been trained to fall asleep in bed in a dark room.

If you have any concerns and want to discuss this, send me a PM with your phone number.

I (and my wife) are very glad I did the program, and the CPAP is doing wonders for me.

 

[Brantel]

Brian, first off, it is good that you are getting tested/treated for OSA, BTDT.

After treatment---------CPAP or whatever, the FAA will want you to have a MWT--- Maintenance of Wakefulness Test, to see if you are having any issue with staying awake.

http://yoursleep.aasmnet.org/Topic.aspx?id=36

The test is a joke IMHO---------you are put in a bed in a dark room, and then you are supposed to stay awake, even though all your life you have been trained to fall asleep in bed in a dark room.

If you have any concerns and want to discuss this, send me a PM with your phone number.

I (and my wife) are very glad I did the program, and the CPAP is doing wonders for me.

Yes Mike,

My decision to get tested for OSA came a few months ago. I was pushed to do it by my wife and from another Dr. that is going to be doing surgery on me in January.

The good news is that I have never really had issues staying awake in the daytime. This was not one of my symptoms.

It's just something else to add to the mountain of stuff I send em each year!

 

[N15JB]

The test is a joke IMHO---------you are put in a bed in a dark room, and then you are supposed to stay awake, even though all your life you have been trained to fall asleep in bed in a dark room.

Mike,

You may be missing the point of the test. If you have trouble staying awake when you know you are being tested, when your ticket may be on the line, you may also be at risk of falling asleep during less guarded moments i.e. long drives/flights, boring or repetitious tasks, etc. Excessive daytime sleepiness comes in varying degrees; anything from completely conking out(medical term) to a few seconds of inattention. People with OSA are at significantly higher risk of being involved with auto & workplace accidents. I can't think of any good reason why flying a plane would be different.

Jim Berry
RV-10

 

[N395V]

I think the FAA, government, employer or any entity has no business or right to compel an individual to do anything healthwise unless it definitively has been proven that not doing so puts the general public at risk (ie vaccinations)

Having said that I would like to put my Drs. hat on for a moment and make a SUGGESTION to my portly (and select skinny) friends.

Sleep apnea is an insidious vicious unforgiving and deadly disease. It sneaks up on you as you age. The symptoms progress slowly and most attribute these symptoms to age, stress and lack of sleep.

Sleep apneas does its damage over 10-30 years and the changes it causes in the heart brain etc. are (at some point) irreversible. It leads to early dementia, coronary artery disease, heart failure, heart attack, cardiac rhythm disturbances, and death. If you don't die from some of these illnesses they are so debilitating you will wish you did.

The treatment for most is to lose weight (a lot of it) to where you are at ideal body weight. Medical treatment is obnoxious and leads to poor compliance. It involves wearing a face or nasal mask attached to a mini respirator every time you sleep (including naps).

Over the last 20+ years I estimate 30% of my patients have weight related sleep apnea. I refer ALL of them for evaluation. Less than 20% actually go for evaluation AND are compliant with therapy. The other 80% I have, sadly, watched slowly become debilitated and die prematurely.

Never mind BMI, as mentioned many times above, it is a crude and often flawed measurement let me just say: If you are FAT (you know who you are) and or have a BIG neck you should DISCUSS sleep apnea with your doctor. If you are fat or skinny, have a big neck or small neck and you:
Snore
Often Wake up with a vague nagging headache
Wake up with a dry mouth
Are sleepy all the time
Easily fall asleep at places and times where most others do not
If you smoke

THEN YOU SHOULD BE EVALUATED FOR SLEEP APNEA

Do not put it off! Your health and life are in jeopardy!

What is ideal body weight? Best way to determine that is look at your 8th grade class photos. You should look like all those kids in the photo that (now) look malnourished to you.

A crude calculation (no more accurate than BMI) is:
For men 106# for your first 5 feet in height and an added 6# for each additional inch.
for women 100# for your first 5 feet of height plus 5# for each additional inch.

Now I know all of you chubbies just ran the calculation and are laughing your butts off but that is really what your target weight should be.

This is just advice, heed it or ignore it. The choice is yours.

Have a happy Thanksgiving and start your diets when the leftovers are gone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_apnea

 

[Mike S]

Mike,

You may be missing the point of the test. If you have trouble staying awake when you know you are being tested-----------

Jim, respectfully to you, but I think you are missing my point.

If you want to know if I will fall asleep flying a plane, then test me while flying a plane.

If you want to know if I will fall asleep while driving a car--------test me while driving.

But if you want to know if I fall asleep in bed in a dark room-----------remember a guy named Pavlov and his slobbering dogs????

Testing for daytime drowsiness is not the issue to me, it is the method used to test.

The current test stacks the deck against you big time. IMHO it is totally non relevant to the issue of falling asleep during the day, while not in bed.

 

[Mike S]

Having said that I would like to put my Drs. hat on for a moment and make a SUGGESTION to my portly (and select skinny) friends.

Right on Milt--------folks a voice of reason from a person with the training, knowledge and many years of experience. You did catch the part about him being a Dr.............


Milts post is well worth re-reading a time or two.

 

[Brantel]

Thanks for the post Milt. Good to hear from you as always! Good advice!

For those that don't know Milt, he is a cardiologist and he knows his stuff!

 

[NASA515]

My father was skinny as a rail, and lived to 91.5. He spent decades berating his brother, my uncle, who was morbidly obese, about his weight and insisting he curb his appetite. His brother died this year at 95, having handily out-lived my dad - AND - surpassing him on the happiness and enjoyment of life scale by many orders of magnitude. Only a few weeks before his death, he spent 30 minutes on the phone with me regaling me with all the latest jokes he had heard. My dad died a lonely and unhappy man - all of his own choosing.

BUT - he was skinny!

The trouble with these measurements are numerous - many political, as pointed out by others.

Some of the problems have to do with the uncertain world of "correlations." We have people today who crunch enough numbers through enough high speed computers to prove just about anything.

For me to get back to Milt's "ideal weight" would require not that I go back to 8th grade - but more like 6th or 7th grade. Being a dumb engineer, I have kept records going back to my childhood and that's what it would take! Besides the difficulty of shedding all those pounds, (enjoyably added over many years, I might add), when I arrived there, I would look like a concentration camp survivor or someone fighting cancer.

One of the problems with BMI has to do with that other variable - HEIGHT. I am getting shorter! And so are most people (who lose an average 0.4 inches/decade after 40.) So, it's a double whammy - changing both the numerator and the denominator, both in the wrong directions - gaining weight AND losing height. Yikes!

Actually, I calculated my BMI using my current weight AND my old height - which would drop me out of the "bad" range. So, I guess, I need to also get taller. I had a hip replacement two years ago - I should have asked the doc to put those two inches back on me.....

A google search about height loss, shows that it too, causes reduction in life expectancy and all sorts of bad things. Geez, something else to worry about, and yet another correlation for the FAA's horde's of AMEs to zero in on.

In a study released this year, they found the following:

" researchers analyzed data collected from nearly 18,000 adults, beginning when they were 45 years old.

John Strauss, at the University of Southern California, said in a university news release, that he and his colleagues found that the overall age-related height loss was 1.3 inches among men and 1.5 inches among women. However, adults in cities had much less height loss than those in rural areas.

People who completed primary school also lost less height compared to those who were illiterate, 0.35 inches less in men and 0.23 inches less in women. In addition, men who completed high school lost 0.39 inches less than those who were illiterate."

So, there you can see what computers and correlations can do for you. It has to do with whether you can read or live in the city!


Bob Bogash - Light Sport Driver
RV-12
N737G

 

[ifixf15]

Careful Bob

Now Bob, you really shouldn't question your betters like that. You know they are only looking out for your well being. Now sit down and get your immunization, take your blood pressure pills, and they will let you know when recess starts so you can go out and play.

Tom

 

[ifixf15]

And now for something completely off topic

I think the FAA, government, employer or any entity has no business or right to compel an individual to do anything healthwise unless it definitively has been proven that not doing so puts the general public at risk (ie vaccinations)

Milt, I must admit that I find the above quote confusing and possibly very disturbing. It appears that you don't think the govt should compel healthwise except for the times when you think the govt should compel healthwise. Is that correct, or did I misunderstand your statement?

Tom

 

[N395V]

Milt, I must admit that I find the above quote confusing and possibly very disturbing. It appears that you don't think the govt should compel healthwise except for the times when you think the govt should compel healthwise. Is that correct, or did I misunderstand your statement?

Tom

You understood perfectly well.

The FAA (government) has no business telling pilots they need to have a sleep apnea evaluation WITHOUT good reason such as public safety.

They have not documented or proven sleep apnea is a safety issue putting the general public at risk. Therefore if someone at risk for sleep apnea wishes to ignore it the FAA has no business demanding the evaluation.

A case where government, IMHO, should be involved is vaccinations against serious epidemic causing contagious disease such as smallpox and polio or DPT. In this case public safety is clearly enhanced by government requirements.

Where you not compelled by the Air Force (government) to receive a series of innoculations or boosters in basic training? Or did you find that requirement disturbing and confusing ? Or did you just:

Now sit down and get your immunization

as you suggested Bob should do?

You and Bob, however, seemed to have missed the main thrusts of my post so let me clarify.

1. It is my opinion the proposed FAA requirements are unnecessary, unwarranted, and an abuse of power.

2. The balance of my post was free medical advice to those who may be at risk for sleep apnea. You are not compelled to follow it you may heed the advice and use the formula if you wish, you are free to ignore it or scoff at it as you have.

Clearly the two of you know the subject matter better than I . I would expect a USAF MSGT E8 one of my

betters

, as you above mentioned, to have a greater knowledge base than mine as I was only a SGT E5 when discharged from the Marine Corps. But then again it only took me 4 years to wise up not 30.

And I have once again re-learned that no good deed goes unpunished.

 

[Arlen]

Milt,
How do you define public safety? Is it when a threat may affect thousands of humans? How about if it would only affect 100?

What about only 2? (If OSA is a true risk, it may only affect 1 or 2 people's lives directly...).

Deciding when the government "should" be involved is a complex issue, full of debatable positions.

 

[N395V]

Milt,
How do you define public safety? Is it when a threat may affect thousands of humans? How about if it would only affect 100?

What about only 2? (If OSA is a true risk, it may only affect 1 or 2 people's lives directly...).

Deciding when the government "should" be involved is a complex issue, full of debatable positions.

Brian I hope you do not mind my borrowing your photo

See my post above and re-read my original post. You will see I am not a proponent of sleep apnea evals for pilots based on the FAA criteria.

It was FREE medical advice to those who may have sleep apnea nothing more.

I don't give a rats A$$ if you use it or not.

How" I" define public safety is irrelevant to RVs and pilots and not relevant to this forum.

 

[60av8tor]

Milt, I must admit that I find the above quote confusing and possibly very disturbing. It appears that you don't think the govt should compel healthwise except for the times when you think the govt should compel healthwise. Is that correct, or did I misunderstand your statement?

Tom

I think it is pretty clear, if I am not mis-interpreting his post, and I feel the same way. Intervention to protect people from themselves I disagree with, but regulations for the common good are necessary - for instance, why is there a policy limiting OTR truck driver hours in a day? Drivers should be able to drive 20 hours/day, the industry would safely self-regulate... Now I'm not a trucker, and I'm not arguing the specifics of the policy, just using this as an example of what Milt is saying.

I am not arguing for this FAA action; I think it is absurd. But I do find it a little disturbing that some look at personal health and obesity so casually. Using an example of one morbidly obese, fat, but happy individual outliving a skinny, but miserable person, as an implication that obesity doesn't matter really amazes me. It does matter - it matters a lot. Look at our nation as a whole - especially our kids. The long-term health implications of an unhealthy life-style are amazing. All surface discussion aside, I do not think there are any overweight individuals that wouldn't agree to having a healthy weight/fitness level if someone could snap their fingers and give it to them. Making major life changes, and, more importantly maintaining them, is difficult, but the rewards for doing so can and will change your life.

 

[Arlen]

It was FREE medical advice to those who may have sleep apnea nothing more.

I don't give a rats A$$ if you use it or not.

How" I" define public safety is irrelevant to RVs and pilots and not relevant to this forum.

Sorry to strike a nerve, Milt.