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Aircraft engine HP per cubic inch.

Thomas, something is clearly not right there. Either your dyno is wrong, which is possible or the engine is not right.

Just for curious minds, what are the engine parameters when you get the 165 corrected HP? Wot and full rich? What are the MP RPM and fuel flows? What timing? What egt and cht values are you recording?

Cheers!:)

Here's a link to G3i website on a stock dyno pull example with those parameters.
I have ran multiple different Ft-lbs strain gauges (500lb / 1K / 2K) with the same results. Calibrated torq. arm with different weight loads up to 600 lbs to dial in and check results;
http://www.g3ignition.com/dyno.html
http://www.g3ignition.com/02272012b_dwf_pdf.pdf
 
There are more Rotax 912 around than Lycoming 320/360. Most of the Lycomings are certified, most of the 912s are not. Still, failures with a 912s are rare, failures with Lycomings are happening all the time. Maybe not catastrophic failures, but cracks and valve related failures. That is my impression.

The important thing is that there is nothing going on at Lycoming to improve the engines. They are just producing overpriced parts using manufacturing tools from the 50s and 60s. It's like the old east block countries before the wall fell. They did the same producing 50s and 60s type cars, copies from western Europe, at least they had the decency to sell them cheap. The Lycomings are good engines, the engineering done when they were designed was top notch. But thing has happened since the 60s. Cylinders don't crack anymore, valves don't burn and so on. And if they do, then things are redesigned so it won't happen again.

A well assembled Lycoming is usually very reliable. I have a friend who owns a flight school with a half dozen planes and they pound hours on them fast and hard. Seems about 8 out of 10 engines go to TBO without any problems. I believe they had one catastrophic failure where a jug separated and some occasional issues with stuck or burned valves or rings. Over 10 years though, they must have put on at least 40-50,000 hours. Not a bad record.

Both Continental and Lycoming have been building/ machining their engines with modern machining centers for almost a decade now as far as I am aware.
 
I think the results from Thomas shows exactly what is going on. 164 hp at 2800 rpm is the same as the low compression UL520 (317 cu in). The 520S has 180 hp at 2800, and can go much higher in rpm. http://www.ulpower.com/news/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2-A5.pdf

The UL is the result of new technology. Much higher hp per cu in. 30% lighter, FADEC. Modern precise production, and it cost only slightly more than the ancient Lycoming.

The different methods of redundancy is also very interesting. http://www.ulpower.com/engines/faq/ecu-diagrams.html
 
issues with these engines

here are a few things i see and would like to change..

Polished valve faces to to reduce valve temps

add material the bottom side of plugs as i have found threads of spark plug are exposed to combustion....this will also create a small quench area something we dont have in planes but helps detonation in auto engines..

trash the tullip valves and use some sodium filled titanium exhaust valves...at the cost of aircraft parts there shouldnt be any difference.

ground the back of the valves or make the seat a 30 degree grind.
multi angle grind on valve seats..

thermal coating on intake, exhaust ports, combustion chamber, piston top.
keep a uniform intake cross section from intake spider to valve. tune in proper intake cross section size.

add venturi within intake box so that air does not make a hard 90 degree turn into the carb etc.

call comp and get a new modern cam profile and optimum rocker ratio.

fuel injection...

How about drilling out cht probe and plumbing in some direct injection. and we could then work on ignition

these are all simple changes to increase port velocity in low rpm engines
 
1: Why is the Hp per Cube on a aircraft engine so much lower than that of any other engines with 320c.i or 360c.i.??

2: Why are most aircraft engines only capable of turning under 3,000rpm.. Prop efficiency?

3: Why is it so hard to squeeze HP out of aircraft engines vs any other engine?

This same question comes up regularly. So, I went out to the hangar and took a look at my BPE, AEIO-540's high performance engine dyno sheet. Interestingly, the VE (volumetric efficiency) with all the tweaks Alan Barrett can muster, hovers around 70% at full power!

Another note, Helicopter Lycomings are often turning 3300RPM. The HP they produce (by design) is often LESS per cu/in than the standard, direct drive Lycoming. Look at the Robinson R22, R44 and the Schwitzer 300 lyc installations as examples.

So, poor VE is a major reason LYC HP is not at potential levels.

However, you must also remember that the lowly Lyc is a very efficient engine, much more so than many automotive engines. And, when it comes to flying, range and efficiency are key factors. My IO-360 can achieve a BSFC of 0.38 in long range cruise. Compared to a small block Chevy BSFC of 0.55 lb/hr/hp.
 
Thomas, what do you attribute the HP gain from?

Is it a greater area of BMEP at an optimal Theta PP?

Does your system spark for an extended period perhaps giving more BMEP over a longer period? I see you say the timing is 0.5 to 1 degree later, but perhaps more sparking will give a more complete burn earlier?

Curious as to what you believe the result is from.
 
There are more Rotax 912 around than Lycoming 320/360. Most of the Lycomings are certified, most of the 912s are not. Still, failures with a 912s are rare, failures with Lycomings are happening all the time. Maybe not catastrophic failures, but cracks and valve related failures. That is my impression.

The important thing is that there is nothing going on at Lycoming to improve the engines. They are just producing overpriced parts using manufacturing tools from the 50s and 60s. It's like the old east block countries before the wall fell. They did the same producing 50s and 60s type cars, copies from western Europe, at least they had the decency to sell them cheap. The Lycomings are good engines, the engineering done when they were designed was top notch. But thing has happened since the 60s. Cylinders don't crack anymore, valves don't burn and so on. And if they do, then things are redesigned so it won't happen again.

What you say may be true in Europe, but the opposite is true here stateside. I have a friend with a 7/8 scale Storch he built, 912ULS. He keeps temps well monitored and in line with guidance. So far he's had an in-flight failure caused by using auto fuel (water entrenchment?), a broken head stud (as best as we can tell, caused by detonation) and 4 cracked mufflers. ~300 hours on it.

Rotax 912UL installed on a CTSW, factory motor, <90 hours on it since new, low oil pressure problems, temps exceeding redline, seems like it wasn't broken in, but Rotax said no break in required?

Rotax 912 Certed as installed on DA20A. Spent 10 or so man hours on the bing carbs balancing, prop balancing, to try and figure out a vibration problem. Turned out to be the gearbox trying to eat itself.

That is the extent of my experience on Rotax 9xx series engines... not just the bad experiences mind you, but all of them.

Lycoming and Continental have incrementally improved their engines over the last 50 years, to the point that I'd be willing to bet that not ONE part number is the same in a new O-360A1A as one that was built in 1960. My current Citabria motor is from 1969, has two original cylinders (and two that have been replaced) never been split, and has 2400 hours on it, Still runs strong, although it's getting replaced soon, due to camshaft wear. With roller tappets and the improved oiling available today, I'd not be surprised to be able to get 3500 to 4000 hours out of a new manufacture 150HP O-320.

The same flight school that operates the CTSW from the 912 example recently got 2400hrs out of their 2006 DA40's IO-360 before replacing with a factory rebuilt. While these engines appear to be unchanged and lacking in technology, they are really very carefully engineered to do what they do, and nobody has really been able to do it better.

Theilhart tried to best the O-320 market, and failed quite dramatically.
 
wrong metric!

In an airplane, we don't really care what the hp/cu in. is....

what we care about is hp/lb.

That is -- as long as I can fit the engine into the airplane, I don't care how big it is, only how much it weighs.

(Oh, I see that Larry Pardue said the same thing 3 pages ago. sorry)

For all the modern technology people tout, not many have been able to beat the horsepower/pound of a Lycoming for a given propeller RPM.

Another thing about the remarkably low SFC that we get with Lycomings running LOP: Considering the high cylinder head temp compared to liquid cooled engines, this temp roughly defines the lower temp boundary of the Carnot cycle, and limits its efficiency. If you can reject heat to the environment at lower temperature, you have higher efficiency. Realizing that, it is remarkable how good the efficiency of the old Lycosaurus is.
 
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For all the modern technology people tout, not many have been able to beat the horsepower/pound of a Lycoming for a given propeller RPM.

You have to compare apples to apples.
Rotax 912S : 100HP, 150 lbs, 2400 prop RPM
UL260iS: 93 HP, 160 lbs, 2800 RPM (107 max)
UL350i/iS: 116/123 HP, 173 lbs, 2800 prop RPM (118/130 max)
Continental 200 : 100HP, 200 lbs, 2750 prop RPM
Lycoming O235 : 116 HP, 220 lbs, 2800 prop RPM

Even the 7 cylinder radial from Rotec:
Rotec : 110HP : 224 lbs : 2400 prop RPM.


The market for 100-120 HP engines is blooming at the moment and will continue to do so. Lycoming/Continental is not competitive.
 
talk about Apples to Apples!

You can't just compare engine weight, you have to include all the needed accessories, fluids, radiators, ducting, baffles, etc.

IO-360-Axx 200 hp 324 lbs.
no radiator, coolant, coolant hoses, gear box, yada yada.

It does of course have an oil cooler, but so do most of the engines you list. the baffles weigh next to nothing.
 
Efficiency

In an airplane, we don't really care what the hp/cu in. is....


Another thing about the remarkably low SFC that we get with Lycomings running LOP: Considering the high cylinder head temp compared to liquid cooled engines, this temp roughly defines the lower temp boundary of the Carnot cycle, and limits its efficiency. If you can reject heat to the environment at lower temperature, you have higher efficiency. Realizing that, it is remarkable how good the efficiency of the old Lycosaurus is.

I am curious if the efficiency talked about here is the same efficiency as the BSFC? I think this has to do with thermodynamic efficiency of the air/fuel mixture, and has nothing to do cylinder temp, although coorelated. If the air/fuel mixture expends all its energy so that the exhaust temp is close to ambient, then it has no more enrgy to give, and we have the efficiency mentioned above. This exhaust temp is the energy turbos use. If instead the exhaust temperature is reduced due to very efficient cooling by the cylinder head, then aren't we throwing away thermodynamic efficiency?
 
closely related

The BSFC is very closely related to the Carnot efficiency. You will get more power out of your fuel if you reject heat to the environment at a lower temperature. This means that more of the energy is extracted to do work rather than leaving waste heat in the environment (exhaust, coolant, etc)
Yes, that is why a turbo becomes so efficient, you take energy out of the exhaust that would be otherwise wasted, and use it to boost the engine power.

The BSFC is a very direct way to measure efficiency. All you need to know is fuel flow and horsepower. Carnot efficiency comes from a very detailed thermodynamic book-keeping, not something you can easily measure.
 
You can't just compare engine weight, you have to include all the needed accessories, fluids, radiators, ducting, baffles, etc.

IO-360-Axx 200 hp 324 lbs.
no radiator, coolant, coolant hoses, gear box, yada yada.

It does of course have an oil cooler, but so do most of the engines you list. the baffles weigh next to nothing.

Thats what I did. The 912 without coolers etc (but with gear) weighs about 110 lbs. The ULs are complete with oil, oil cooler and electronics etc.
 
IO-360 wt/hp

The parallel valve IO-360 with CR=9:1 falls right in line with your weight trends, about 195 hp at about 300 lb. Very competitive with all your examples.
 
If instead the exhaust temperature is reduced due to very efficient cooling by the cylinder head, then aren't we throwing away thermodynamic efficiency?

You want the combustion temperature to be as high as possible, limited by the integrity of the material in the head. It's the temperature of the combustion gases that counts regarding efficiency, not the temperature of the head material. Therefore you want to have precise control of the head temperature and that is only practically achievable by using liquid cooling.

The cooling of the gases occurs as the volume expands when the piston goes down and the pressure decreases. Higher CR gives cooler exhaust gas, higher efficiency.
 
The parallel valve IO-360 with CR=9:1 falls right in line with your weight trends, about 195 hp at about 300 lb. Very competitive with all your examples.

The UL520 is 180 HP at 2800, but weighs only 240 lb everything included. http://www.ulpower.com/engines/manuals/520/IM_UL520i-UL520iS-UL520iSA.pdf

Lycomings are excellent designs, but there is nothing modern about them. Not regarding fuel, ignition (no FADEC) and not regarding HP/lb, not even regarding accuracy/precision during manufacturing.

In the huge and blooming 100HP range, Lycomings and Continentals have lost. They are not competitive at all. In the 150+ range Lycoming still dominate, but that market is shrinking.
 
The UL520 is 180 HP at 2800, but weighs only 240 lb everything included. http://www.ulpower.com/engines/manuals/520/IM_UL520i-UL520iS-UL520iSA.pdf

Lycomings are excellent designs, but there is nothing modern about them. Not regarding fuel, ignition (no FADEC) and not regarding HP/lb, not even regarding accuracy/precision during manufacturing.

In the huge and blooming 100HP range, Lycomings and Continentals have lost. They are not competitive at all. In the 150+ range Lycoming still dominate, but that market is shrinking.

Modern does not necessarily mean better when it comes to overall performance. Modern for the sake of modern with no advantages is simply another market choice. Lyconentals offer very good SFCs and decent power to weight ratios plus they generally offer very good life. Bottom line, they work well for the intended purpose. If the competitors can match or exceed their performance AND offer better prices, then they will start to take market share. True, there is always a percentage of buyers who want something new or different because it may be perceived as being better.

You also might want to research production methods used by Lycoming and Continental these days. I believe you will find similar technology and accuracy of machining as what UL and Rotax are using. Didn't used to be that way but has been now for many years.

All this being said, I am glad to see new competitors coming into the field as it offers more choices and forces the old guard to stay on their toes and improve their products. The lessons learned by the American and European car companies from their Japanese and Korean competitors should not easily be forgotten in any industry.
 
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