bmellis11

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Lycoming just sent out the attached communication, which basically says what we already knew: the bankruptcy is our problem, not theirs. All deposits were retained by Vans. I suspect and hope they are negotiating something with Van’s to minimize the extra money we will have to pony up.
 

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Yeah, just got my email. Lycoming doesn't really say much other than contact Vans. They have your deposit.

I fear my engine deposit is gone and I'll end up paying the new higher prices. I'm guessing my engine will end up costing an additional $20,000. Kit price increases will cost me an additional $12,000. Laser cut parts replacement will likely cost me $2,000...And I thought boats were expensive.
 
Also just received the 'Sgt Shultz' email. Very surprised to read that Lyc. does not accept orders directly from the general public. What does that leave other than used? Was the Superior crankshaft issue ever resolved?
Having said all that, we still do not have any knowledge of what Van's will do regarding this issue and I'm hopeful it will only involve a modest price increase.
 
While not surprising, the Gayman letter appears to be the first step in Lycoming using Vans Ch 11 to renege on our engine orders. I hope you all saved your letters from Lycoming confirming your order. They may play a part in this case.
 
How this issue is handled will likely be a go/no go situation for me. I can probably absorb the remaining kit price increases, but the engine and prop deposits/costs are a different story.
 
Vans increased the price of the engine I ordered by $6,000 a couple weeks after I ordered mine.

That, and the $14,000 deposit that I might lose is the additional $20,000 that my engine could cost me.
 
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You are saying Van’s intentionaly stole money. I could not disagree more.

I’m far more optimistic. As in:
- Lycoming will honor the price they quoted for our engines.
- Van’s will use new investor money to fill the empty engine/prop deposit buckets.

Yesterday I got an encouraging note from Van’s that the long awaited back ordered RV-10 front seat are soon to be shipped out to customers. If Van’s was really out to screw us they would not be doing that.

Carl
 
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Remember that Vans does not have to exercise breaking a contract. They can honor it. Also that the contract with Van and customers is SEPARATE from the one they have with Lycoming

Unless there’s a sweetheart deal with Vans and Lycoming I don’t see how contracts could be broken, re-order and then reinserted inserted into the schedule.


It would be a very bad look to clear out of all of them, then have customers reorder at today’s prices and then go back to the end of the build schedule line.
 
Van’s has made it clear so far in their filings that they intend to charge additional money on all previously paid orders so they have money to run the business and won’t have to rely on additional capital contributions from Van himself to support operations. Keep in mind that he is just putting up additional secured debt that will have a higher priority of repayment than new customer deposits. His lending is also discretionary, so if he decides to stop lending and let the cards fall he can. So they are putting the risk on us and making it up to us whether we want to bail the company out.

Lycoming’s price to Van’s will not change unless renegotiated, and we can assume that the 25% paid to Van’s as a deposit was not just Van’s markup, so for Lycoming to get their full price, Van’s will have to collect the 75% balance + the part of the deposit that was supposed to go to Lycoming, and then additional profit for Van’s, which I assume will be 32% higher than their previous profit like their other post bankruptcy price increases.
 
...the long awaited back ordered RV-10 front seat are soon to be shipped out to customers.

I've been told multiple times since March that the AeroSun Vxi wingtip lights and Beringer brake package that I ordered would ship "next week". Vans saying something will ship soon means nothing to me - and I'm a big fan of Vans. I just have zero faith when they tell me something will ship soon.

I do hope you get your seats soon though!
 
I don't believe that Van's will further mark up the engine, nor ask for additional deposit.

On the Interim Budget, attached as Exhibit A to the Interim Order Authorizing Debtor's Us of Cash Collateral, Van's shows $100,000 per month as Cash Needed to Fulfill Lycoming/Hartzell Orders in Budget Period.

I would believe that if Van's has a contract with Lycoming to deliver engines at a set price thenLycoming is bound to that contract. Thus if Van's pays Lycoming, then Lycoming must ship the engine at the agreed to price. No need for us to pay additional.

Unfortunately, I am building a RV-12 and I don't see Rotax on the budget...
 
My Thunderbolt was 42k. I no longer care if I get a Thunderbolt

I have received quotes from 43-50k from various engine builders.

If I have to pay Vans my deposit again of 10k my new total is 52k with Vans

If I abandon the Thunderbolt and receive ZERO from my deposit claim I can buy elsewhere with a sunk cost of 53-60k which includes my lost deposit

Depending on what I choose I’m out an extra 1-8k to pull chocks. I may make a few concessions and go the route that only costs me an extra 1k. I may receive some of my deposit which will make it better. What I will have for sure is the satisfaction of not allowing Vans to make a profit off the engine sale.

I think we need to organize such that we do not represent the 70% acceptance rate that Vans predicted, preferably the inverse. There are other options
 
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Van’s has made it clear so far in their filings that they intend to charge additional money on all previously paid orders so they have money to run the business and won’t have to rely on additional capital contributions from Van himself to support operations. Keep in mind that he is just putting up additional secured debt that will have a higher priority of repayment than new customer deposits. His lending is also discretionary, so if he decides to stop lending and let the cards fall he can. So they are putting the risk on us and making it up to us whether we want to bail the company out.

Lycoming’s price to Van’s will not change unless renegotiated, and we can assume that the 25% paid to Van’s as a deposit was not just Van’s markup, so for Lycoming to get their full price, Van’s will have to collect the 75% balance + the part of the deposit that was supposed to go to Lycoming, and then additional profit for Van’s, which I assume will be 32% higher than their previous profit like their other post bankruptcy price increases.

If this is even close to what they do I am 100% out on buying my engine from vans and Lycoming for that matter. I’ll let my 25% ride the legal system and maybe hopefully get some of it back. I will either be purchasing a C-IO370 or building an engine.
 
Relax

Their are way too many companies that profit from Van's for it to just go away. If Van's comes out of this and continues to sell kits as we all know they will. They are the best total performance kits out there. Think Garmin, Dynon, Hartzell, Lycoming do you think they want all those sales to dry up. I think not they will emerge stronger and profitable. The annual price increases they used to have were behind the curve as we all know everything has had terrible inflation. Plus the primer and LCP was too much. They will survive. Yes kits will cost more but so does everything else.
 
They won’t dry up because of Vans. People will buy other kits. All those third parties don’t care what airframe they end up on.
 
The amount of Lycoming deposits that was spent is approximately $5 million.

And you know this how? Do you have a source for that amount?

At an average of $10,000 deposit, that would be 500 engines on order.

At the hearing, I believe Van's said there were 680 3rd party orders. Since each engine order generally also has a prop order, then the maximum number of Lycoming orders could be 340.

But the third party orders also include ROtax and Stein on the RV-12's
 
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Here’s a data point for 2022 orders. 400 Lycoming engines. Not difficult to make delivery assumptions and amount of deposits still in hand directly related to engine deposits
 

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Lycoming

AirPowerinc.com will sell you a new Lycoming. They are the worlds largest Lycoming distributor.
Ft. Worth area.
 
Here’s a data point for 2022 orders. 400 Lycoming engines. Not difficult to make delivery assumptions and amount of deposits still in hand directly related to engine deposits

Well the email says Lycoming received 400 orders.

Van's publishes a list of total RVs flying.From April 2021 through April 2023 there were 325 RVs added to the list. Eighty of those were RV-12s, so that leaves a net 245 planes using Lycoming. That is roughly 125 per year. If each plane used only one engine....

That seems to correspond to the 90k$ per month they have in the budget for honoring Lycoming deposits... +/- 9 deposits per month = 108 engines per year.
 
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Of the aircraft you mentioned I’d bet there were many ECI, Barrett, Aerosport etc. and many of them probably had an engine delivered years ago that was being stored

I’d say given delivery delay that a slim amount of the 400 from 2022 orders ended up on an airframe by April 2023

This is an EXCELLENT time for Titan ECI to POUNCE on converting these orders to a sale for them
 
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And you know this how? Do you have a source for that amount?

At an average of $10,000 deposit, that would be 500 engines on order.

At the hearing, I believe Van's said there were 680 3rd party orders. Since each engine order generally also has a prop order, then the maximum number of Lycoming orders could be 340.

But the third party orders also include ROtax and Stein on the RV-12's

The $5M figure comes from the stated liabilities in the bankruptcy filing. But I'm 99% sure these are for engines that were shipped to Van's customers for which Van's did not pay Lycoming. It wouldn't just be the deposits because Lycoming didn't take deposits from Van's (which is what they say in the letter), so it would be for the full engine cost. And I don't think that includes engines that haven't shipped, because the debt would be much higher. Also, Lycoming implies in its letter that it used to give Van's credit (but no longer will), so that all makes sense.
 
The $5M figure comes from the stated liabilities in the bankruptcy filing. But I'm 99% sure these are for engines that were shipped to Van's customers for which Van's did not pay Lycoming. ....

The Bankruptcy filing only shows $598,323.00 owed to Lycoming, not $5M
 
The $5M figure comes from the stated liabilities in the bankruptcy filing. But I'm 99% sure these are for engines that were shipped to Van's customers for which Van's did not pay Lycoming. It wouldn't just be the deposits because Lycoming didn't take deposits from Van's (which is what they say in the letter), so it would be for the full engine cost. And I don't think that includes engines that haven't shipped, because the debt would be much higher. Also, Lycoming implies in its letter that it used to give Van's credit (but no longer will), so that all makes sense.

Don’t you think that if Lycoming had delivered $5 million in engines and had not been paid - that would have been disclosed in the list of Top 20 creditors?

The information I have from a very credible source said it’s $5 million in deposits.
 
Also just received the 'Sgt Shultz' email.

That's not fair. Lycoming did not take your money.

...until December 4, 2023, Lycoming Engines did not require that Van’s Aircraft make any similar deposit to order an engine from Lycoming. Therefore, to the extent Van’s customers have prepaid a deposit for the order of Lycoming engines, Lycoming has not received those funds.
 
Don’t you think that if Lycoming had delivered $5 million in engines and had not been paid - that would have been disclosed in the list of Top 20 creditors?

The information I have from a very credible source said it’s $5 million in deposits.

The bankruptcy filings show $23,971,888 total deposits through 11/30/2023. Some number of that is in a seperate account. That would be 20% of the deposits more or less. That number seems large since they sell many more kits than planes that finish with an engine.
 
Their are way too many companies that profit from Van's for it to just go away. If Van's comes out of this and continues to sell kits as we all know they will. They are the best total performance kits out there. Think Garmin, Dynon, Hartzell, Lycoming do you think they want all those sales to dry up. I think not they will emerge stronger and profitable. The annual price increases they used to have were behind the curve as we all know everything has had terrible inflation. Plus the primer and LCP was too much. They will survive. Yes kits will cost more but so does everything else.

Agreed, they definitely will not go away. Their name, though tarnished, and their products are the best in the industry. There is value there and when there is value, people will want and pay for it. The question is who is going to bear the costs of keeping them around and is it going to be equitable?

The way Van's survival has been proposed is for the customers to bear the whole burden. Van’s structured the bankruptcy (by using Subchapter V) so a third party can’t swoop in and buy the company. Van being the DIP lender also ensures that. That’s probably a good thing, but that also means Van controls the whole process and someone else can't come in and offer customers a better deal in exchange for buying the company.

Van/his attorneys/the new guys running Vans have made it so that the money Van previously loaned to the company and the money he will loan in bankruptcy (the amount being entirely in his discretion) will always be in a position to be repaid before the customers (including customers that put money in after the bankruptcy). So if Van doesn't lend everything the company needs, then the company liquidates, Van gets his money back (i.e., previous profits funded in part by customer deposits), and the customers lose everything (including customers that put in money after the start of the bankruptcy).

I don't think this is fair. I think he should give committed lending during the bankruptcy (or find someone that will, since that is the way it is normally done) and I think he should be subordinate to the rights of customers that make deposits after the start of the bankruptcy. He should also have to propose a plan that makes pre-bankruptcy creditors whole over a period of time. To give customers comfort dealing with a bankrupt company, he should also have to escrow the new customer payments until the goods ship and support the company's cashflow needs with his DIP facility in the meantime. Escrowing new payments will ensure that customers will get their money back if the company liquidates before shipping their goods.

I disagree with the excuse that the company didn’t keep up with inflation. They raised their prices 30%+ over the last few years and their financials show multimillion dollar profits over the last several years. Those profits should have remained in the company and been subordinate to customer deposits, but Van and/or the employee owners pulled all the profits out of the business (which is why they have very little retained earnings on their financial statements). He's now loaning those profits back to the company on a secured basis. Keep in mind that the priority in bankruptcy is secured creditors > customers > ownership. So he moved his money from a subordinate ownership position to the highest priority secured creditor position, elevating his rights in the company's money over the rights of the customers that gave the company that money.

Getting back to the cause of the bankruptcy, based on the bankruptcy filings, the problem that lead to bankruptcy seems to be mainly that they failed to do quality control and shipped millions of dollars of defective LCPs. They couldn't get their LCP vendor and/or insurance carrier to cover the loss nor could they get their customers to find the parts acceptable and forget what Van's has been saying for decades about cracks. They are estimating the cost of remediating the LCP loss at $5M. They put that estimated loss as a reserve on their balance sheet and that is most of the reason they are insolvent on the balance sheet.

The bankruptcy was the only way they could force a price increase on the customers so that the owners wouldn't have to put more capital into the business as equity and risk that capital being subordinated to the rights of their customers. It's easier to force someone else to lose their money so you can keep your own. This is pretty typical in business, but I leave it to you all to decide whether it is right. As I've said before, I believe that Van is a good guy and only hope that he will use the power he has in this process and the money we have all made him to make sure the customers are taken care of in the best way possible.
 
That's not fair. Lycoming did not take your money.

...until December 4, 2023, Lycoming Engines did not require that Van’s Aircraft make any similar deposit to order an engine from Lycoming. Therefore, to the extent Van’s customers have prepaid a deposit for the order of Lycoming engines, Lycoming has not received those funds.

And what about the email we all received from Lycoming thanking us for our orders? We ignore that? Court gonna allow Lycoming a do over?
 
The bankruptcy filings show $23,971,888 total deposits through 11/30/2023. Some number of that is in a seperate account. That would be 20% of the deposits more or less. That number seems large since they sell many more kits than planes that finish with an engine.

Not going to argue with you and frankly, at this point - the absolute number doesn't really matter. $5 million is only about 400 engines at $12,500 deposit each.

As Ben has so eloquently expressed, Van and his team pretty much hold all the cards right now.
 
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The way Van's survival has been proposed is for the customers to bear the whole burden. Van’s structured the bankruptcy (by using Subchapter V) so a third party can’t swoop in and buy the company. Van being the DIP lender also ensures that. That’s probably a good thing, but that also means Van controls the whole process and someone else can't come in and offer customers a better deal in exchange for buying the company.

My only knowledge of Subchapter V comes from Google (and the Van’s filings). However, the ability of Van’s to file under Subchapter V is what allows the DIP (and as the controlling shareholder Van himself) the exclusive right to formulate a re-organization plan. As you point out Van (and his advisors) have carefully formulated a plan that:
A). allows them to break contracts, pushing cost and risk on customers, with a take-it-or-leave-it offer
B). Provides only accounting protections (another contractual ones via escrow) on future customer deposits
C). Accepts only secured funding and only from Van
D). Provides (essentially) that only Van will receive anything if the plan fails and Chapter 7 liquidation ensues

My reading of the eligibility requirements for Subchapter V however limits unsecured debts to $7.5MM in total. To qualify, Van’s filing has not characterized the $22MM in customer deposits as “unsecured debts.” I guess they somehow see them only as “potential claims.” My limited experience in other situations would suggest customer deposits are in fact “debts”. Customers with multiple deposits would certainly rise into the top 20 largest creditors if their deposits were recognized as debts.

Absent the provisions of Subchapter V there would be opportunities for others (outsiders) to propose reorganization funding and plans (at least if creditors rejected the plan from the DIP). Such proposals might more “fairly” distribute the risks.

Anyone know how or if the choice of Subchapter V filing can be challenged ?
 
Fair

I keep seeing this word come up in these threads.

What IS “fair”?

There is no one here that can define it; “fair” ALWAYS comes at someone else’s expense and is completely dependent on the position and perspective of the person attempting to define it. It therefore means something different to each and every person.

The bankruptcy rules are well established; those who hope to try and find an end run around them will likely only succeed in padding the lawyer’s wallet, if they can find one who is even willing to try.

Not pointing fingers or placing blame. Having been through several bankruptcies, it is what it is…and it generally isn’t good for anyone involved.
 
I keep seeing this word come up in these threads.

What IS “fair”?

There is no one here that can define it; “fair” ALWAYS comes at someone else’s expense and is completely dependent on the position and perspective of the person attempting to define it. It therefore means something different to each and every person.

The bankruptcy rules are well established; those who hope to try and find an end run around them will likely only succeed in padding the lawyer’s wallet, if they can find one who is even willing to try.

Not pointing fingers or placing blame. Having been through several bankruptcies, it is what it is…and it generally isn’t good for anyone involved.

Isn’t what is “fair” down to the judge?
 
I keep seeing this word come up in these threads.

What IS “fair”?

There is no one here that can define it; “fair” ALWAYS comes at someone else’s expense and is completely dependent on the position and perspective of the person attempting to define it. It therefore means something different to each and every person.

The bankruptcy rules are well established; those who hope to try and find an end run around them will likely only succeed in padding the lawyer’s wallet, if they can find one who is even willing to try.

Not pointing fingers or placing blame. Having been through several bankruptcies, it is what it is…and it generally isn’t good for anyone involved.

"Fair and equitable" are defined extensively in the bankruptcy code and in precedent. When I say fair, I mean fair in that context. There are ways for creditors to pursue their rights in bankruptcy successfully and without being out of pocket. Typically that takes the form of a creditors' committee. Van's is trying to prevent that from happening by filing under Subchapter V, which usually doesn't allow creditors' committees. But I suspect the trustee will decide that one is needed here nonetheless. We also have the right to speak up at the hearings to raise these issues free of charge.
 
The bankruptcy judge is God. Fair has zero to do with it. Legal, moral, fair, inequitable, right, wrong don’t really come into play. It’s what the judge hears from the lawyers and what he/she deems appropriate.
I know first hand how it works. 25 years of retirement in one signature of the judge, 12 years of legal battles through various courts, never lost an appeal and in the end, nada, zip but, have a nice day.
Hope it is at least palatable to the majority.
 
Agreed, they definitely will not go away. Their name, though tarnished, and their products are the best in the industry. There is value there and when there is value, people will want and pay for it. The question is who is going to bear the costs of keeping them around and is it going to be equitable?

The way Van's survival has been proposed is for the customers to bear the whole burden. Van’s structured the bankruptcy (by using Subchapter V) so a third party can’t swoop in and buy the company. Van being the DIP lender also ensures that. That’s probably a good thing, but that also means Van controls the whole process and someone else can't come in and offer customers a better deal in exchange for buying the company.

Van/his attorneys/the new guys running Vans have made it so that the money Van previously loaned to the company and the money he will loan in bankruptcy (the amount being entirely in his discretion) will always be in a position to be repaid before the customers (including customers that put money in after the bankruptcy). So if Van doesn't lend everything the company needs, then the company liquidates, Van gets his money back (i.e., previous profits funded in part by customer deposits), and the customers lose everything (including customers that put in money after the start of the bankruptcy).

I don't think this is fair. I think he should give committed lending during the bankruptcy (or find someone that will, since that is the way it is normally done) and I think he should be subordinate to the rights of customers that make deposits after the start of the bankruptcy. He should also have to propose a plan that makes pre-bankruptcy creditors whole over a period of time. To give customers comfort dealing with a bankrupt company, he should also have to escrow the new customer payments until the goods ship and support the company's cashflow needs with his DIP facility in the meantime. Escrowing new payments will ensure that customers will get their money back if the company liquidates before shipping their goods.

I disagree with the excuse that the company didn’t keep up with inflation. They raised their prices 30%+ over the last few years and their financials show multimillion dollar profits over the last several years. Those profits should have remained in the company and been subordinate to customer deposits, but Van and/or the employee owners pulled all the profits out of the business (which is why they have very little retained earnings on their financial statements). He's now loaning those profits back to the company on a secured basis. Keep in mind that the priority in bankruptcy is secured creditors > customers > ownership. So he moved his money from a subordinate ownership position to the highest priority secured creditor position, elevating his rights in the company's money over the rights of the customers that gave the company that money.

Getting back to the cause of the bankruptcy, based on the bankruptcy filings, the problem that lead to bankruptcy seems to be mainly that they failed to do quality control and shipped millions of dollars of defective LCPs. They couldn't get their LCP vendor and/or insurance carrier to cover the loss nor could they get their customers to find the parts acceptable and forget what Van's has been saying for decades about cracks. They are estimating the cost of remediating the LCP loss at $5M. They put that estimated loss as a reserve on their balance sheet and that is most of the reason they are insolvent on the balance sheet.

The bankruptcy was the only way they could force a price increase on the customers so that the owners wouldn't have to put more capital into the business as equity and risk that capital being subordinated to the rights of their customers. It's easier to force someone else to lose their money so you can keep your own. This is pretty typical in business, but I leave it to you all to decide whether it is right. As I've said before, I believe that Van is a good guy and only hope that he will use the power he has in this process and the money we have all made him to make sure the customers are taken care of in the best way possible.

Totally agree with your summary. Bankruptcy is also the only way Van's can proactively limit any future liability from LCP and other mistakes they made over the years. That leaves the company in a very good position when it's all over.

So Van's did everything possible to give himself the best legal position he could without regards to anybody else. The record and filings factually show that so that's not a speculation. I am not criticizing as I would have done the same just stating the obvious.

What I don't understand though is that some people are still advocating that creditors shouldn't do the same.

Oliver
 
Anyone know how or if the choice of Subchapter V filing can be challenged ?

At the first hearing, the judge asked several times for those who opposed it (in the court, on the zoom, or on the phone) to speak up and offered them time to speak. No one did so. There were I think a couple of hundred present on zoom, likely many from this forum……. I’m not sure if that is the only opportunity.
 
Wonder how much of the "profits that were pulled out of the company" went to Van and how much to employees that decided to "retire" during Covid lockdowns.

Anybody know from looking at court filing documents?

Of course it could also have been a scheduled part of Van's retirement plan or agreement to make it an employee-owned company.

The way it was stated in recent posts puts Van and ex-employees in a rather bad light.

My first thought when reading the letter from Lycoming about Van's not having forwarded engine deposits was "Isn't that illegal". But I guess not.

Finn
 
The tone in the back and forth in this thread has me getting REAL close to me banning a couple of users and locking this thread.

BE POLITE AND FOLLOW THE POSTING RULES

v/r,dr
 
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A bankruptcy is in most cases bad for all parties involved.
A bad owner that has planned for the bankruptcy in advance will close the door and walk away. He has no reason to stay and answer all sorts of questions.
It takes a lot of hard work to reorganize the business making new deals with
the vendors and build new trust in the company.
Paying a deposit is a business deal and it involves a risk that is either acceptable or unacceptable. This decision depend on once own situation.
In the beginning there are lots of unknowns in a bankruptcy.
After a couple of month the extent of the damage will be more known.
A normal business owner that has decided to reorganize the company will
follow the rules to the best for the company.
And this is what is required of him.

I wish you all the best.
 
The tone in the back and forth in this thread has me getting REAL close to me banning a couple of users and locking this thread.

BE POLITE AND FOLLOW THE POSTING RULES (or go somewhere else).

v/r,dr

Thanks, glad you see these yourself.
 
My only knowledge of Subchapter V comes from Google (and the Van’s filings). However, the ability of Van’s to file under Subchapter V is what allows the DIP (and as the controlling shareholder Van himself) the exclusive right to formulate a re-organization plan. As you point out Van (and his advisors) have carefully formulated a plan that:
A). allows them to break contracts, pushing cost and risk on customers, with a take-it-or-leave-it offer
B). Provides only accounting protections (another contractual ones via escrow) on future customer deposits
C). Accepts only secured funding and only from Van
D). Provides (essentially) that only Van will receive anything if the plan fails and Chapter 7 liquidation ensues

My reading of the eligibility requirements for Subchapter V however limits unsecured debts to $7.5MM in total. To qualify, Van’s filing has not characterized the $22MM in customer deposits as “unsecured debts.” I guess they somehow see them only as “potential claims.” My limited experience in other situations would suggest customer deposits are in fact “debts”. Customers with multiple deposits would certainly rise into the top 20 largest creditors if their deposits were recognized as debts.

Absent the provisions of Subchapter V there would be opportunities for others (outsiders) to propose reorganization funding and plans (at least if creditors rejected the plan from the DIP). Such proposals might more “fairly” distribute the risks.

Anyone know how or if the choice of Subchapter V filing can be challenged ?

My interpretation is that for the $22M in kit deposits vs. the $7.5M subchapter V limit has to do with this: those deposits are “potential” claims because Van’s is going to offer new terms at a higher price which would honor the original deposit if accepted. If they can get 80% of those customers to accept the new deal, that would take $17.6M in “potential” claims out of the mix. It would leave 20% of the customers with about $4.4M in deposits and make them unsecured creditors. Not an attorney, just my perception of what’s going on.
 
Engines

Having built my own engine for the RV-6, I have planned to buy a new Lycoming from Van's for the RV-8 build.

Over the past 30-years, Van's OEM Lycoming pricing has been very good if not excellent. There are other engine builders that can undercut the price Van was selling NEW Lycoming for but not by much.

Van has room to raise the Lycoming Engine price a little but more than a few percent will make many of the other Lycoming "CLONE" engines much more attractive. IF Van makes too much profit on the Lycoming OEM engines that they sell, there would be a drop in the number of kits and parts that they sell.

Just an old RVator's opinion. After flying my RV more than 26-years and 3,500 flying hours landing in 49 states, I have made more friends, had more experiences that are worth three or four times what the cost of building my RV was.

For this builder, flyer, and repeat builder; this Chapter 11 stuff is just a storm that I do not want to fly IFR in and am sitting on the ground away from home waiting for the storm to pass.
 
I see a lot of wrong information in this thread.

The 600k that's in the bankruptcy documents is specifically an order for Egypt army. If you are not in Egypt, that's not your deposit.

As far as anyone can see, there are four painful truths for Vans with engines.
1. Lycoming does not have your deposit. They didn't require deposits from Vans.
2. Vans tried to keep overhead low to make Lycoming engines affordable for customers. This means their margins were minimal. The figure I was told is $1000 - $1400 per engine. Unlike kits where there is a significant profit margin that can be tapped through repricing orders and running the company lean of profits until it can get through the backlog of creditors (builders), there is none with engines and propellers.
3. All signs point to that Vans appear to have comingled the deposit funds with operating expenses.
4. Asking for a deposit greater than your cut of the pie is a fair weather strategy. The second there are clouds on the horizon the outcome is bankruptcy and termination of contracts.

Most likely Vans will ask for an additional deposit to cover the deposits that were spent.

This may make people angry, but it happened, and we need to move forward, that money no longer exists.

In my opinion moving forward Vans needs to get out of the business of accepting deposits for items that it is just a passthrough for, unless those deposits pass through to the ultimate vendor.
 
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My interpretation is that for the $22M in kit deposits vs. the $7.5M subchapter V limit has to do with this: those deposits are “potential” claims because Van’s is going to offer new terms at a higher price which would honor the original deposit if accepted. If they can get 80% of those customers to accept the new deal, that would take $17.6M in “potential” claims out of the mix. It would leave 20% of the customers with about $4.4M in deposits and make them unsecured creditors. Not an attorney, just my perception of what’s going on.

Maybe, and I’m not a lawyer either, but at the time of filing these appear to be debts to me. If your plan is to pay unsecured creditors 90%, I wouldn’t ’t think you get to carry $80MM of pre-petition debt into a sub-chapter V filing.

At this point, who can know how many will accept the deal?
 
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2 hours of labor taking an order, processing it, and maybe a call or two with a customer in between order and delivery. At $100/hr that’s pretty generous for paying the employees and overhead.

2022 had 400 orders. When those ship they’d be making $1200/engine. $480,000 a year just for taking and processing an order. I would love to reap 600% over my costs on anything I sell.

I’d say that’s a pretty good ROI, especially when the other products you sell are causing customers to make this additional purchase
 
The entire Vans business model is under consideration.

Lots of discussion about engines, but I assume props (and other products) will fall in the same category of unknowns.

As the "reorganization" continues I'll bet that Lycoming, Hartzell and other pass through vendors are considering their business models as well. How can they not? Vans has been passing through with low its overhead, but that is now in jeopardy. Lyc, Hartzell and a dozen other manufacturers know builders want their products, so would (I imagine) be considering how to sell to these builders and what the overhead costs would be in order to price accordingly. Not to mention that the contacts for sale through their current network(s) are not going to want their profit stream disrupted.

All the above may depend on how Vans is ultimately reorganized. Any time any company has an unusually large customer, their business is at risk for that single point of failure we like to avoid in our airplanes. This is part of basic business management. The more gross sales, the more the possibilities need to be addressed. If they haven't been already, they certainly will be addressed now.

One poster here has shared their plan if the worst happens for the engine delivery, a prudent process. Be prepared.

"Just the facts, Mam." Sgt Joe Friday
 
Easy, require a deposit to be paid by the distributor when the order is placed instead of letting it ride until its all due. I always thought it was crazy that it was only a $500 loss when you cancelled the entire engine order. I think there was an unusual arrangement with Vans that was not the ordinary setup with other distributor/OEMS. It bit everyone.
 
My Thunderbolt was 42k. I no longer care if I get a Thunderbolt

I have received quotes from 43-50k from various engine builders.

If I have to pay Vans my deposit again of 10k my new total is 52k with Vans

If I abandon the Thunderbolt and receive ZERO from my deposit claim I can buy elsewhere with a sunk cost of 53-60k which includes my lost deposit

Depending on what I choose I’m out an extra 1-8k to pull chocks. I may make a few concessions and go the route that only costs me an extra 1k. I may receive some of my deposit which will make it better. What I will have for sure is the satisfaction of not allowing Vans to make a profit off the engine sale.

I think we need to organize such that we do not represent the 70% acceptance rate that Vans predicted, preferably the inverse. There are other options

I really don't think you have to worry about that 70 percent...seems to be a gross overestimation...50 percent might be pushing it without an escrow account for future deposits.