Waiting for Updated -12is Avionics & Powerplant Prices

[Antonitis]

I've been waiting to accept my modified finish kit order until I see the revised pricing on the avionics and power plant kits. As of today, those prices are still marked as "Check Back Soon" on the Vans pricing page.

Does anyone have any information from Vans on when these will be posted?

Thanks.

 

[Brantel]

Nope, while I accepted the modified order for my finish kit, the future of my build depends on what happens with those final two kits!

 

[docjjrmd]

I've been waiting to accept my modified finish kit order until I see the revised pricing on the avionics and power plant kits. As of today, those prices are still marked as "Check Back Soon" on the Vans pricing page.

Does anyone have any information from Vans on when these will be posted?

Thanks.

Nothing yet. I have a power plant deposit in to them and my build calendar says I should be ordering avionics last of January or February. I am also waiting on info about the Grove Wheel Set that is the only thing backordered out of my finish kit. I am hoping there will be some clarity after the creditors meeting next week. Meanwhile continue to build, if need be, can go the EAB route and finish with off the shelf items. Not ideal but I have enough to complete a flying plane.

JJR

 

[sc_pilot]

I’m also waiting. As of a week or two ago, I had called stein to ask some questions about possibly modifying my avionics harness after it was complete. Found out he hasn’t heard from vans either. So if vans said they were “talking” it hadn’t started as of 10 days ago. When I called stein earlier on Dec. 7th, they said they had 14 rv-12 panels remaining to build. I was slot 7. I placed my avionics order late September if that helps anyone.

I know I’ll get extorted for my fully paid for avionics but whatever the “new contract” amount is, it’s a small fee to hopefully avoid loosing 38k.

However, I can’t trust handing over an engine balance payment in the 40-50k range and not be a nervous wreck for however many months, or years it takes for it to be delivered. The feeling I feel now is not one I wish to extend any further than needed. Maybe if they assigned me a serial number and said this is your engine when they come asking to renew the contract. But I’m pretty set on going UL Power and not looking back. I even went to the web store and paid full price for my “instock” back orders they never shipped. Funny they went out the door same week. Seems foolish but at least I can get my plane on gear and get some motivation and progress back. Once I get my avionics I’ll have everything to build on and not look back.

If anyone else is considering switching to UL, let me know. I have a spreadsheet I made of all the parts out of the powerplant kit that are needed to complete the “airframe”. About $1,700.00 worth of parts that probably should’ve been grouped in the finish kit to truly have a complete airframe.

 

[Antonitis]

On the creditor call today, I asked when -12 avionics and powerplant kit pricing would be released. Vans said they haven't spoken with Rotax yet, and that has delayed pricing. I asked if -12 builders would be granted an extension beyond January 30th if pricing was not yet released. They said they would reach out to -12 builders if that situation was close to materializing... but would not commit to an extension.

 

[sc_pilot]

On the creditor call today, I asked when -12 avionics and powerplant kit pricing would be released. Vans said they haven't spoken with Rotax yet, and that has delayed pricing. I asked if -12 builders would be granted an extension beyond January 30th if pricing was not yet released. They said they would reach out to -12 builders if that situation was close to materializing... but would not commit to an extension.

So since they haven’t spoken to rotax, safe to say that the comment about engine contracts going out late next week is strictly for lycoming engines? And not anything related to the 12? Seems like us 12 builders will be last in line to get info on our orders and have the shortest decision window…

 

[docjjrmd]

On the creditor call today, I asked when -12 avionics and powerplant kit pricing would be released. Vans said they haven't spoken with Rotax yet, and that has delayed pricing. I asked if -12 builders would be granted an extension beyond January 30th if pricing was not yet released. They said they would reach out to -12 builders if that situation was close to materializing... but would not commit to an extension.

As best as I can tell, Rotax is not a creditor, likely because they have been on "a pay, then ship", basis with Vans. I also suspect there is not the profit margin in the Rotax engines that exist in the Lycoming world. Sheer numbers suggest the outstanding Rotax orders is miniscule compared to Lycoming and really hasn't been a priority to address. Vans doesn't owe Rotax so no pressure to negotiate by either party. The court sets the rejection notice deadline. If Vans doesn't do anything then the contracts are automatically rejected in the courts eyes and we with deposits get in line as unsecured creditors and have to file a claim. At one point there was a comment that deposits for engines and avionics had been segregated as of first week of October. Of course, deposits in general have been held in trust since the BK filing Dec. 4. I have not seen any evidence in the financials of Oct to Dec deposits being held separately and not sure the court would allow it anyway. So I am ready to fie a claim if need be by the claim deadline in February, just being patient and letting the process play out. Getting in a hurry or a dither just raises my blood pressure. Remember the definition of worry is the useless expenditure of energy on things you can't change. It is what it is, keep building and look to the future. :>)

 

[GregInIdaho]

As best as I can tell, Rotax is not a creditor, likely because they have been on "a pay, then ship", basis with Vans. I also suspect there is not the profit margin in the Rotax engines that exist in the Lycoming world. Sheer numbers suggest the outstanding Rotax orders is miniscule compared to Lycoming and really hasn't been a priority to address. Vans doesn't owe Rotax so no pressure to negotiate by either party. The court sets the rejection notice deadline. If Vans doesn't do anything then the contracts are automatically rejected in the courts eyes and we with deposits get in line as unsecured creditors and have to file a claim. At one point there was a comment that deposits for engines and avionics had been segregated as of first week of October. Of course, deposits in general have been held in trust since the BK filing Dec. 4. I have not seen any evidence in the financials of Oct to Dec deposits being held separately and not sure the court would allow it anyway. So I am ready to fie a claim if need be by the claim deadline in February, just being patient and letting the process play out. Getting in a hurry or a dither just raises my blood pressure. Remember the definition of worry is the useless expenditure of energy on things you can't change. It is what it is, keep building and look to the future. :>)

I am not a bankruptcy attorney, but I do not believe that contracts are automatically rejected. Van's filed a motion with the court to be allowed by the court to reject specific contracts in a specific manner. I believe that we must be given notice of Van's intention to reject any particular contract.

 

[mikebee]

I am not a bankruptcy attorney, but I do not believe that contracts are automatically rejected. Van's filed a motion with the court to be allowed by the court to reject specific contracts in a specific manner. I believe that we must be given notice of Van's intention to reject any particular contract.

Correct. This was discussed at length at today's creditor meeting, and the process is only really explained in one of the court filings (which they admitted would not really be understood unless you were a bankruptcy attorney). They are waiting to see if you agree to modification by January 30. If you don't agree, then they will send a notice rejecting your contract. You then have an opportunity to object to the rejection.

[This next sentence was "new information" to some people:] IN ADDITION to being able to object to the rejection, the deadline to file your claim after receiving a rejection notice is 30 days after the rejection notice was sent. In other words, they acknowledge that the February 12 deadline to file a claim isn't "really" the deadline for the people who receive a notice of rejected contracts.... it would be 30 days after the notice.

 

[sc_pilot]

Not sure the validity of this information but I heard a rumor that from around July there are about 40-50 rv12 power plant kits on order undelivered. Not sure how many were added from August til December. People who waited a year fell towards the front of that line. Small # compared to the lycoming people. Again this could be total bs but it might be less than 75 power plant kits they’re dealing with for the 12 people

 

[apicreator]

Correct. This was discussed at length at today's creditor meeting, and the process is only really explained in one of the court filings (which they admitted would not really be understood unless you were a bankruptcy attorney). They are waiting to see if you agree to modification by January 30. If you don't agree, then they will send a notice rejecting your contract. You then have an opportunity to object to the rejection.

[This next sentence was "new information" to some people:] IN ADDITION to being able to object to the rejection, the deadline to file your claim after receiving a rejection notice is 30 days after the rejection notice was sent. In other words, they acknowledge that the February 12 deadline to file a claim isn't "really" the deadline for the people who receive a notice of rejected contracts.... it would be 30 days after the notice.

Mike, do you know if there is any difference between a fully paid order and a deposit (in the eyes of the court)? That's where my indecision to accept the new pricing steams from. I've fully paid the order but due to Vans ways or working, they never shipped it before the Ch. 11. I now face a significant price increase.

 

[mweidman]

I am also looking to understand if I should be expecting a price increase for the RV-12iS Rotax engines. I am one of those with a deposit down from March 2023 and still awaiting Finish kit (deposit Jan 2023). My understanding was Vans had no margin on Rotax engines, so my initial thought was they have no basis to increase the price at this point. I was expecting to receive some information this week but it seems like most of the discussion is around the Lycoming engines so now I'm not sure if I'll get any info.

The cost and the timing are both important to me. My goal was to be flying this airplane by the end of calendar year 2024. The likelihood of that seems to be decreasing by the day. Will anyone actually buy these kits (delivered: tail, wing, fuse) if I decided to abort this project and liquidate?

 

[didja]

Mike, do you know if there is any difference between a fully paid order and a deposit (in the eyes of the court)? That's where my indecision to accept the new pricing steams from. I've fully paid the order but due to Vans ways or working, they never shipped it before the Ch. 11. I now face a significant price increase.

At the creditor's meeting there were a few folks that asked this very question with regard to those that have fully paid for the item they are still awaiting (I myself had fully paid for a lycoming engine and have not received it). The bankruptcy court treats all contracts as "deposits", so even if you have paid in full for any kit or engine or propeller etc, it is still a "deposit" and subject to the bankruptcy process and claim process. If you gave money to Vans, and they have not sent the item to you, it is a "deposit" and you will still need to decide to accept the new contract terms (whatever they may be) or refuse and file a claim to hope to get at least some of your money back.

They also stated that whatever the courts decide is the percent that claims are to receive, it will be evenly applied to all claimants regardless of how much of the deposit you paid. they have to treat all equally. Someone had asked the question since they paid in full, would they get first dibs at getting money returned, and the response was no, all would be treated equally.

 

[apicreator]

At the creditor's meeting there were a few folks that asked this very question with regard to those that have fully paid for the item they are still awaiting (I myself had fully paid for a lycoming engine and have not received it). The bankruptcy court treats all contracts as "deposits", so even if you have paid in full for any kit or engine or propeller etc, it is still a "deposit" and subject to the bankruptcy process and claim process. If you gave money to Vans, and they have not sent the item to you, it is a "deposit" and you will still need to decide to accept the new contract terms (whatever they may be) or refuse and file a claim to hope to get at least some of your money back.

They also stated that whatever the courts decide is the percent that claims are to receive, it will be evenly applied to all claimants regardless of how much of the deposit you paid. they have to treat all equally. Someone had asked the question since they paid in full, would they get first dibs at getting money returned, and the response was no, all would be treated equally.

Thanks for the reply. This brings a lot of clarity.