FlyLED Strobe Intensity

[avrojockey]

Sent this to Paul but thought it may be worthwhile to get the brain trust involved...

I purchased the FlyLED Works kit. How would you recommend wiring strobes for low and high intensity with OFF-ON-ON switch? I don't have a beacon, so I would like a low intensity for ground use only. Also, can you think of a way to change the pattern with said intensity. I'm envisioning a simple on/off pattern at low intensity on the ground, and traditional "strobe" pattern at high intensity in the air.

Thanks all!

 

[edhunter]

Sent this to Paul but thought it may be worthwhile to get the brain trust involved...

I purchased the FlyLED Works kit. How would you recommend wiring strobes for low and high intensity with OFF-ON-ON switch? I don't have a beacon, so I would like a low intensity for ground use only. Also, can you think of a way to change the pattern with said intensity. I'm envisioning a simple on/off pattern at low intensity on the ground, and traditional "strobe" pattern at high intensity in the air.

Thanks all!

Doesn’t the fly-led kits have a taxi light function? I have the kit but didn’t wire them up for the low voltage taxi function so don’t recall.

 

[BobTurner]

Doesn’t the fly-led kits have a taxi light function? I have the kit but didn’t wire them up for the low voltage taxi function so

Sent this to Paul but thought it may be worthwhile to get the brain trust involved...

I purchased the FlyLED Works kit. How would you recommend wiring strobes for low and high intensity with OFF-ON-ON switch? I don't have a beacon, so I would like a low intensity for ground use only. Also, can you think of a way to change the pattern with said intensity. I'm envisioning a simple on/off pattern at low intensity on the ground, and traditional "strobe" pattern at high intensity in the air.

Thanks all!

The FlyLed system uses dropping resistors to limit the current. So if you can switch in an additional resistor in series with the power to the strobe LEDs (but keep full power going to the control board) you should accomplish your goal of dimming. The resistor probably needs a heat sink. The pattern is controlled by dip switches. I’d try to use a relay to switch between the two patterns you want. This is a lot of work imho.

 

[BobTurner]

Yes, there is a built in function to use the strobes at low power, always on, like a floodlight. I do think you need to keep the FARs in mind, 91.205 will apply at night. There is a provision to turn off the anti-collision lights ‘in the interest of safety’, perhaps lowering the intensity can be interpreted as ‘in the interest of safety’. Operating them as a floodlight is, I think, a bigger stretch. Also remember that if you are equipped per 91.205 you are obligated to run the lights all the time, day or night.

 

[PilotjohnS]

There is a mistaken belief that strobes need to be on when engine is running. For the USA, I believe this is incorrect. In addition, the Cessna's have the rotating beacon on when engine is running, and some believe that either strobes or a rotating beacon need to be on when engine is running; I believe this is also incorrect.
It is my belief that only navigation lights (position lights) need to be on when engine is running, not strobes nor rotating beacons. There was a very long debate about this right hear on this very channel, several years ago.

 

[avrojockey]

Doesn’t the fly-led kits have a taxi light function? I have the kit but didn’t wire them up for the low voltage taxi function so don’t recall.

yes...this is not what I want. I want a low intensity strobe on the ground

 

[BobTurner]

There is a mistaken belief that strobes need to be on when engine is running. For the USA, I believe this is incorrect. In addition, the Cessna's have the rotating beacon on when engine is running, and some believe that either strobes or a rotating beacon need to be on when engine is running; I believe this is also incorrect.
It is my belief that only navigation lights (position lights) need to be on when engine is running, not strobes nor rotating beacons. There was a very long debate about this right hear on this very channel, several years ago.

Good grief. This is not a 'mistaken belief'. FAR 91.209(b) specifically states that installed anti collision lighting must be lighted whenever the aircraft is operated. An FAA letter has been issued clarifying that "operated" means any time the engine is running. It also clarifies lighting is to be interpreted in the plural. e.g., in an aircraft with both strobes and a rotating beacon, all of those lights must be on, day or night. There is an exception allowed "in the interest of safety."
Finally, there is no requirement under part 91 to run the nav lights during the day.

 

[avrojockey]

Yes, there is a built in function to use the strobes at low power, always on, like a floodlight. I do think you need to keep the FARs in mind, 91.205 will apply at night. There is a provision to turn off the anti-collision lights ‘in the interest of safety’, perhaps lowering the intensity can be interpreted as ‘in the interest of safety’. Operating them as a floodlight is, I think, a bigger stretch. Also remember that if you are equipped per 91.205 you are obligated to run the lights all the time, day or night.

The flood function is built in but this isn't what I'm aiming for. I still want the "anti-collision" function of the strobe on the ground, albeit at low intensity to keep from enjoying others.

 

[avrojockey]

There is a mistaken belief that strobes need to be on when engine is running. For the USA, I believe this is incorrect. In addition, the Cessna's have the rotating beacon on when engine is running, and some believe that either strobes or a rotating beacon need to be on when engine is running; I believe this is also incorrect.
It is my belief that only navigation lights (position lights) need to be on when engine is running, not strobes nor rotating beacons. There was a very long debate about this right hear on this very channel, several years ago.

Fly in-out of MDW frequently...I want to run the strobes on the ground at night, but don't care to bast everyone. I don't want to get run over by a 737 either. Since I don't have a separate anti-collision beacon, I want to run the strobes at a lower intensity on the ground.

 

[sailvi767]

Good grief. This is not a 'mistaken belief'. FAR 91.209(b) specifically states that installed anti collision lighting must be lighted whenever the aircraft is operated. An FAA letter has been issued clarifying that "operated" means any time the engine is running. It also clarifies lighting is to be interpreted in the plural. e.g., in an aircraft with both strobes and a rotating beacon, all of those lights must be on, day or night. There is an exception allowed "in the interest of safety."
Finally, there is no requirement under part 91 to run the nav lights during the day.

I can assure you that part 121 airlines do not use strobes on the ground. They are normally activated when cleared for takeoff. That’s written into their FAA approved ops specs.

 

[Taltruda]

Good grief. This is not a 'mistaken belief'. FAR 91.209(b) specifically states that installed anti collision lighting must be lighted whenever the aircraft is operated. An FAA letter has been issued clarifying that "operated" means any time the engine is running. It also clarifies lighting is to be interpreted in the plural. e.g., in an aircraft with both strobes and a rotating beacon, all of those lights must be on, day or night. There is an exception allowed "in the interest of safety."
Finally, there is no requirement under part 91 to run the nav lights during the day.

Can you post the source that says both rotating beacon AND strobes are to be used on the ground?

 

[Taltruda]

Good grief. This is not a 'mistaken belief'. FAR 91.209(b) specifically states that installed anti collision lighting must be lighted whenever the aircraft is operated. An FAA letter has been issued clarifying that "operated" means any time the engine is running. It also clarifies lighting is to be interpreted in the plural. e.g., in an aircraft with both strobes and a rotating beacon, all of those lights must be on, day or night. There is an exception allowed "in the interest of safety."
Finally, there is no requirement under part 91 to run the nav lights during the day.

I thought I found the 2017 legal interpretation that you are probably referencing, but when I click the link to it, it is broken.. here is AOPA’s take on it..

Inoperative Anticollision Lights

pilot-protection-services.aopa.org

 

[BobTurner]

I can assure you that part 121 airlines do not use strobes on the ground. They are normally activated when cleared for takeoff. That’s written into their FAA approved ops specs.

I believe you. Of course no RVs operate under 121. The ‘in the interest of safety’ exception was specifically added during the rule making in response to questions about ground operations. I did not mean to imply one shouldn’t think about other aircraft when on the ground.

 

[PilotjohnS]

I believe that in the air, all lights should be on like Bob mentioned. But on the ground, I only run the nav lights, and sometimes the landing lights. I do not run the strobes on the ground.

So I think we are discussing if on the ground, the strobes and rotating beacons need to be on too?

 

[BobTurner]

I believe that in the air, all lights should be on like Bob mentioned. But on the ground, I only run the nav lights, and sometimes the landing lights. I do not run the strobes on the ground.

So I think we are discussing if on the ground, the strobes and rotating beacons need to be on too?

The relatively new far says yes, on, day or night. But there is an allowance to turn them off ‘in the interest of safety’, e.g., don’t blind others.

 

[Roadjunkie1]

I believe that in the air, all lights should be on like Bob mentioned. But on the ground, I only run the nav lights, and sometimes the landing lights. I do not run the strobes on the ground.
So I think we are discussing if on the ground, the strobes and rotating beacons need to be on too?

My nav/position lights are on as part of my pre-taxi checklist and my landing/taxi lights are keyed (they are controlled by switches on my stick) but not on and neither are my strobes. It isn't a matter of blinding other pilots; rather having strobes on while taxiing (and mine are BRIGHT!) are annoying to other pilots and do not much to make me more visible on the ground. At night my nav/position and taxi lights are on and my landing on if I am not pointed at anyone (FlyLED quad cluster will melt your tie!) Strobes again not on until I have finished my runup and on the PREDEPARTURE CHECKLIST. I leave everything on until out of the pattern and well away from traffic; then the landing/taxi lights are off. Coming into an airport, landing/taxi lights are on WigWag until I am on downwind, then switch to steady. Strobes are off as soon as I leave the runway; everything else is on. If the Fish Finder sees traffic in my area, landing/taxi lights/WigWag come on.

It's easier in the Cub: no electrical system; no lights!

 

[Draker]

I interpret the FAR as Bob does and run my strobes constantly. I actually have a “position lights only” switch position (OFF-ON-ON) but never use it.

 

[Paul from Flyleds]

Sent this to Paul but thought it may be worthwhile to get the brain trust involved...

I purchased the FlyLED Works kit. How would you recommend wiring strobes for low and high intensity with OFF-ON-ON switch? I don't have a beacon, so I would like a low intensity for ground use only. Also, can you think of a way to change the pattern with said intensity. I'm envisioning a simple on/off pattern at low intensity on the ground, and traditional "strobe" pattern at high intensity in the air.

Thanks all!

Hi Tim

What you're asking for could be done in software, in that I could run the strobes at a lower power by using PWM, whereby the lights are only on for (example) 10% of the time and so our eyes perceive them to be only 10% the brightness. We're talking 1 millisecond for every 10 milliseconds for example, but thanks to persistence of vision our eyes just see them as "dim".
You're only the second person to ask for this, so I won't be hurrying to write the software for you, sorry! It's all certainly possible, but I just don't have the time at the moment.

Plan B could be to switch in a voltage regulator that only feeds the lights 8 or 9 volts rather than full battery volts. When I build kits for customers I bench test them at 7.5 volts or so so that I don't see spots for the next half hour. This could be on your mid switch position and full volts on your second switch position.

(Just another opinion follows...)
To be honest, I'm a fan of the KISS principle... Have you seen how bright the nav/position LEDs are already? Personally I'd just turn the strobes off on the ground. I promise you'll still be seen. You're only moving at a handful of knots on the ground, versus 100+ knots in a dark sky. Plenty of time for both you and the other guy to see each other and apply the brakes.

 

[RV6_flyer]

I have a strobe on the top of vertical stabilizer on my RV-6. It is ALWAYS on when the master switch is ON. I tend to shut the wing strobes OFF when I exit the runway to not blind people on the ground. Wing strobes get turned on at the completion of runup before I taxi onto the runway. IF I forget to turn the master off when I get out of the airplane, the tail strobe reminds me. Before taxi onto the runway, I always say: Lights, Camera, Action. (Strobes, Transponder (should always be on with ADS-B), Gas and boost pump)

My RV-8 project has FlyLEDs. I am using the tail light standalone nav / strobe module and plan to operate strobes on the RV-8 the same way as the RV-6. The RV-6 has a switch for the tail strobe and one for the wing strobes. The RV-8 will only have a switch for the wing strobes. The tail strobe will be on a pull type circuit breaker. During maintenance when aircraft electrical power is required (or flying in formation) the tail strobe circuit breaker can be pulled when strobe is not desired.

 

[avrojockey]

Plan B could be to switch in a voltage regulator that only feeds the lights 8 or 9 volts rather than full battery volts. When I build kits for customers I bench test them at 7.5 volts or so so that I don't see spots for the next half hour. This could be on your mid switch position and full volts on your second switch position.

Thanks Paul!

With the recommendation above...Anyone know the specs of the voltage regulator I need? Or how I go about building something? I know from the note the strobes peek at 6 amps momentarily. Assuming power is controlled by voltage the current requirement doesn't change, I don't see a simple way to handle this current. Can you just wire a few lower rated MOSFET voltage regulators in parallel on a heat sink, to handle the current?

Sorry for the electrical ignorance

 

[avrojockey]

So…the way I understand it…MOSFET voltage regulators will not work in parallel as the load isn’t balanced. You can, however, get lower voltage regulators and put them in series, to get the voltage you want. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[BobTurner]

So…the way I understand it…MOSFET voltage regulators will not work in parallel as the load isn’t balanced. You can, however, get lower voltage regulators and put them in series, to get the voltage you want. Can anyone confirm this?

Most regulators in parallel will not share the current load equally. Tiny internal differences will result in one of them supplying 90% of the current. This is easily fixed by putting small (0.1 ohm) resistors in series with each regulator, before paralleling them. But: the FlyLeds use an led in series with a resistor, R, The resistor limits the current so you don’t burn out the led. To lower the led brightness, switch in an additional series resistor, also about value R if you wish to halve the light output. I said ‘about’ because I neglected the ‘forward’ voltage drop across the led. Also, human eyes are very non-linear, you probably want more than a 2x drop in light output. You can just experiment with different values until you get the brightness you want. Then a simple switch supplies power direct to the circuit board (full bright) or thru the series resistor (dimmed). The resistor probably needs a heat sink and/or a decent power rating, although the time off between pulses helps dissipate the heat.

 

[Paul from Flyleds]

Hi Tim

Lets keep it simple!
The first method to achieve that is to not bother doing this, but hey, I guess this is putting the E back into Experimental.
The second method is as per the diagram below. You're lucky that the Flyleds kit responds well to lower voltages.

Switch in a voltage regulator to lower the volts fed to the Flyleds kit. The second switch position applies full (/regular/normal) battery voltage to the kit. There is a diode on the output of the regulator to stop this higher voltage from 'backfeeding' and damaging the regulator.

I've left the voltage regulator as a blue box for you to experiment with. There are lots of small modules that you can find online that will provide 3 amps which will be more than enough capacity at the suggested 9 or 10 volts.
However do note that said small modules will almost all be switching type or switchmode regulators, and it will be a lucky dip as to whether these will kill/wreak havoc with your radio reception or not. The product pictures or the description may give away the regulator chip number, in which case you can search for the data sheet and get to know what types you're looking at. You'll soon spot the inductors on the boards which tells you it's a switching type regulator. Order a few different types!
If you can find a "linear" type regulator module good for 2 amps or so then this issue goes away.

Having just written all that the simpler method will be to use a string of 5 or 6 1N5404 diodes. Each one drops or loses about 0.7 volts, so assuming your alternator is online and you're at 13.8 battery volts when taxiing, five of them will drop about 3.5 volts, giving the kit about 10 (noise free) volts.
You'll need to come up with a vibration free and electrically safe way of mounting the diodes. They will only get warm to touch in this application.

Good luck!

 

[avrojockey]

Thanks a ton Paul...I'm going to KISS for now and maybe build a regulator later on. Thanks for the help!

Everything is build...going in wing now