Firewall Forward Kits

[fl-mike]

Well, looking at the current pricing for Vans Firewall Forward kits.....yowzee! $11k.
At this point, it is cheaper to buy many of the parts from Spruce or other vendors and make up your own kit. Just blindly adding a 1.5-2x multiplier to all components makes the FWF kit not such a deal anymore. I'm not so sure an extra $4k for "convenience" is worth it.
Since laser cut parts are not bad, I'm wondering if someone is going to come up with an alternative ($750!) baffle kit.
I'm starting to work up my own list of parts. Some don't have alternatives, but many do. I certainly don't need another bag of AN426AD3-3.5 rivets!

 

[squeakersc063]

Most of the cost of anything from Vans is paying them to do the legwork and engineering for us. I’m lazy so I’ll just order the plug and play kit

 

[Jonnyb]

Same with the finish kit. Especially if you want to go a different way with cowls ect.

 

[BenNabors]

I had $3850 from the online estimator that use to be on the vansaircraft.com website before it disappeared. I about fell out of my chair when I saw the price over $11k.
Now that I have all the kits through the "finish kit," my cost to complete is $30 to $40 k higher to finish the plane than the initial total cost estimate.
Most of the cost increases from the suppliers are a supply and demand issue. Too much demand for production capacity. The increases are not sustainable.
I the case of Vans, much of the cost is due to incompetent management, quality control, and engineering, responding to off the chart demand.
The success of VanGrunsven over the first 50 years is a testament to his genius ability as an engineer and manager. Not only did the wheels fall off as he slowed his involvement, but the new geniuses did not even know the shit had hit the fans as they burned through 18 months of 25 percent deposits. The moment I saw the video that they were having financial difficulties I knew they were in way over their head. A real risk to a business is knowing when you have too much business and not accepting more than you can perform. That was the issue when I started my company, I did not have the infrastructure set up or employees that could see the big picture.
My heart goes out to Richard
VanGrunsven and I hope he can save the company.

 

[Desert Rat]

I did an engine/airframe combo that vans doesn't have a fwd kit for. I think the only thing I ordered from them was a baffle kit. Otherwise, I did it all piecemeal by ordering exactly what I wanted from places like TS flightlines and Vetterman.
It took a while, but there's no way I spent anywhere close to $11,000. I'd say more like $5k, and the two most expensive things in there were the exhaust and the prop governor.

 

[airguy]

My heart goes out to Richard
VanGrunsven and I hope he can save the company.

He did the smart thing, and engaged experts in saving companies that can be saved. And yes, it will cost some money for the effort, but it's worth it.

If you think hiring an expert for a job is expensive, just try hiring an amateur!

 

[Carl Froehlich]

I never ordered the FWF kit for any of my four builds. The kits:
- Did not have the oil cooler I wanted
- Did not have the alternator I wanted
- Did not have the prop governor I wanted
- All the hoses were made for a specific configuration that did not support mine
- Control cable lengths were hit or miss
- The exhausts were also hit or miss for my engine configurations
- The electrial cables were also for a generic install - nowhere near what I needed

The current baffle kit prices are crazy. I got one for the new RV-10 project as an experiment for Jimmy at James Cowl to simplify installing the James plenum on the IO-540 (I’m using the new James Cowl designed for the Cold Air Sump IO-540). Big mistake. I only needed the side and rear aluminum pieces.

Carl

 

[PhatRV]

I am adding a perspective of a lowtime pilot and a complete amateur at building airplane. I didn't know anything about general aviation, I didn't even fly in a general aviation airplane, or was a license pilot before I started on my firewall forward section. When I was installing my engine, I didn't know where the oil cooler ports are located, didn't know where the MAP port was, etc... so having a FWF kit was a big deal. If you have build an airplane or two , then you can roll your own. I felt the +$7500 I spent on the kit was worth it. I know the RV8 wings won't probably break off because of my build quality but the engine has a greater chance of stopping if I didn't purchase the FWF kit from Vans.

 

[TS Flightlines]

I never ordered the FWF kit for any of my four builds. The kits:
- Did not have the oil cooler I wanted
- Did not have the alternator I wanted
- Did not have the prop governor I wanted
- All the hoses were made for a specific configuration that did not support mine
- Control cable lengths were hit or miss
- The exhausts were also hit or miss for my engine configurations
- The electrial cables were also for a generic install - nowhere near what I needed

The current baffle kit prices are crazy. I got one for the new RV-10 project as an experiment for Jimmy at James Cowl to simplify installing the James plenum on the IO-540 (I’m using the new James Cowl designed for the Cold Air Sump IO-540). Big mistake. I only needed the side and rear aluminum pieces.

Carl

I kinda like the idea of the baffle project you guys are talking about. Problem is how to make them as universal and standardized as possible. Hand bending isnt really repeatable, BUT a CNC press brake is. This one is from Baleigh, but the cost is ^. But I could see someone with the skills doing it.

 

[skelrad]

I am adding a perspective of a lowtime pilot and a complete amateur at building airplane. I didn't know anything about general aviation, I didn't even fly in a general aviation airplane, or was a license pilot before I started on my firewall forward section. When I was installing my engine, I didn't know where the oil cooler ports are located, didn't know where the MAP port was, etc... so having a FWF kit was a big deal. If you have build an airplane or two , then you can roll your own. I felt the +$7500 I spent on the kit was worth it. I know the RV8 wings won't probably break off because of my build quality but the engine has a greater chance of stopping if I didn't purchase the FWF kit from Vans.

This is mostly why I am unsure which direction I'll go. I have no qualms with sourcing parts, especially if it means saving a considerable amount of money, but my hesitation is simply that I've never done anything like this before and will need some guidance. Does the firewall forward kit provide additional instruction on everything, or is it just the parts for the most part? The instructions in the manual (9A) aren't super prescriptive for firewall.

 

[TS Flightlines]

I kinda like the idea of the baffle project you guys are talking about. Problem is how to make them as universal and standardized as possible. Hand bending isnt really repeatable, BUT a CNC press brake is. This one is from Baleigh, but the cost is ^. But I could see someone with the skills doing it.

LOL====but it wont be us! Steve is really good at CAD and G code and stuff. Me---LOL-I'm trying to learn CAD but teaching this old man new tricks is tougher than I thought. Boy is sure would have been nice to hire a high school kid a couple of hours a week to come sit next to me to draw some of this stuff. They'd rather play Call of Duty or watch TikTok.
But a CNC press brake does bring up some very interesting possibilities. Dont need a HUGE one like Vans has, but something to where you can program it to make consistant precise repetitive bends. For an up and coming small business, it could be lucrative. Expensive to get into, but may be something for someone. AND the possiblities are endless.

 

[Carl Froehlich]

I kinda like the idea of the baffle project you guys are talking about. Problem is how to make them as universal and standardized as possible. Hand bending isnt really repeatable, BUT a CNC press brake is. This one is from Baleigh, but the cost is ^. But I could see someone with the skills doing it.

For what it is worth, on my first James Cowl RV-10 with plenum I made all the aluminum parts by hand. A single piece of 0.032” alumium sheet from ACS, the hand drawings from Sam James, some time cutting and bending on the workbench, and then fit up.

It was not hard, you just had to pay attention to how stuff fits together.

Carl

 

[vinzer]

Yeah FF kit is arm and leg now. I got my self Comanche IO-540 engine core with all firewall forward parts. Will try to reuse whatever I can and source the rest from the suppliers. Baffles will likely not fit, al least the forward section, so will use brake press to fabricate suitable parts.

 

[skylor]

Well, looking at the current pricing for Vans Firewall Forward kits.....yowzee! $11k.
At this point, it is cheaper to buy many of the parts from Spruce or other vendors and make up your own kit. Just blindly adding a 1.5-2x multiplier to all components makes the FWF kit not such a deal anymore. I'm not so sure an extra $4k for "convenience" is worth it.
Since laser cut parts are not bad, I'm wondering if someone is going to come up with an alternative ($750!) baffle kit.
I'm starting to work up my own list of parts. Some don't have alternatives, but many do. I certainly don't need another bag of AN426AD3-3.5 rivets!

I suspect that if you add up the costs of equivalent parts of everything included in the FWF kit you will find that you won't save much, if anything by doing it yourself plus you will spend a significant amount of extra time determining things like hose lengths and shopping for equivalent hardware.

For example, I just priced the big ticket items at spruce including alternator, exhaust, propeller governor, engine mount isolators, oil cooler and push-pull cables and that alone adds up to ~$7000. This doesn't even include hoses, fittings, cable ends, hardware, baffles, heater control, intake snorkel, air cleaner, heater hardware and ducting, etc. Also, if you source parts from various different vendors you will likely spend a lot of extra money on shipping and handling.

Skylor

 

[PhatRV]

This is mostly why I am unsure which direction I'll go. I have no qualms with sourcing parts, especially if it means saving a considerable amount of money, but my hesitation is simply that I've never done anything like this before and will need some guidance. Does the firewall forward kit provide additional instruction on everything, or is it just the parts for the most part? The instructions in the manual (9A) aren't super prescriptive for firewall.

It's a kit and it came with instructions for the kit. You can source hoses and cables but the kit comes with brackets to mount the throttle cable, mixture cable, snorkels, heat shields, exhaust pipes, hangers for hoses, etc. . . Sure, can can always source them out and manufacture all the extra brackets and doodads yourself, if you know what you are doing. Plus how much time are you willing to spend working on this, a few more years? The FF kit has worked reliably on many RVs. If you do all of these from scratch, then it's a one off. We recently had a RV8 that crashed after it that came out of the paint shop, and it just finished its phase 1. He did a lot of customization. I don't worry about the RV airframe structure that was designed by Vans engineering. People on VAF worry more about rivet quality but I am more afraid of the engine not working right because I made some boneheaded mistakes. Lots of experimentals had crashed because of the engine or engine -fuel combination.