Do we file or no?

[iamtheari]

Re Bucket 3 per DOCJJRMD…….. VANS did indeed ask and receive funds (in full) by some means for parts orders, (which in my case included a couple of back ordered items) and that was a condition of in fact placing the order, ie no money, “your order isn’t going to be processed” So as far as I’m concerned there definitely is (or was) a contract for my outstanding order. Guess I’m not the only one who has paid the previous full price for parts orders.

In hypertechnical terms (which are the terms bankruptcy courts tend to think in), paying cash for a pack of gum will form a contract with many pages of terms implied from both the Uniform Commercial Code and the circumstances of the transaction. Your unfulfilled parts order is a contract for the purchase of the parts and you have performed at least the payment term of the contract, while Van's has not performed the getting-you-the-parts term.

But that's what bankruptcy is all about: extinguishing obligations that the debtor cannot perform. And Chapter 11 is all about giving the debtor and creditors an opportunity to renegotiate the obligations in a way that will allow the debtor to regain solvency going forward.

 

[willscaringe]

It seems that you could send an Objection to those with increased prices. However, this was not clearly mentioned.

I just received an email from BMC Group that says: Court Notification re Van's Aircraft, Inc.

It has this useful information:

————
If you object to the proposed rejection of your contract ("Objection"), you must file the Objection with the clerk of court at U.S. Bankruptcy Court, 405 E 8th Avenue #2600, Eugene, Oregon 97401 and serve the Objection so that it is actually received by the following parties (collectively, the "Objection Service Parties") no later than fourteen (14) calendar days after the date Debtor served this Notice on you …
————

I also received the notice via email on Jan 5. According to the notice, we must file the objection with the clerk and an address is given. Does "file" mean just mail it there?

In addition, the notice says we must "serve the Objection" to four listed individuals or offices with addresses given, plus "All entities that have filed a request for service of filings in the above-captioned chapter 11 case pursuant to Bankruptcy Rule 2002." Does sending a letter with return receipt service satisfy the "serve" requirement? How do we find the "all entities"?

 

[imrah6]

I would imagine that you can sue the company and / or the trustee. I don't know, I'm not an attorney.

You should really find a good consumer attorney in a consumer friendly jurisdiction. California is good but you have to have reason to file in CA otherwise you have to file in the Van's Aircraft jurisdiction I think.

It seems that you could send an Objection to those with increased prices. However, this was not clearly mentioned.

I just received an email from BMC Group that says: Court Notification re Van's Aircraft, Inc.

It has this useful information:

————
If you object to the proposed rejection of your contract ("Objection"), you must file the Objection with the clerk of court at U.S. Bankruptcy Court, 405 E 8th Avenue #2600, Eugene, Oregon 97401 and serve the Objection so that it is actually received by the following parties (collectively, the "Objection Service Parties") no later than fourteen (14) calendar days after the date Debtor served this Notice on you …
————

I didnt know we can object. BMC platform has only a button to Accept, no link nor in the Freq Questions was there a mention: What do I do if I want to object?

Second issue, it is the timing: the new increased pricing was communicated on 19 December. Between the weekends, the holidays and the non-working days, we barely had a few days to be able get advice and submit an objection. Sadly, this deadline has no passed.

A lot of cloud cover…

I am in the group with a fully paid kit (not shipped) and which I am asked more money for. I do not have just a deposit.

 

[bshawco]

Call-In # for Jan 12 Creditor Meeting?

Can anyone share the phone number for the January 12 Court Creditor Meeting?

 

[PaulvS]

Can anyone share the phone number for the January 12 Court Creditor Meeting?

See attached pic of BMC website info.

 

[CizzoPilot]

It is becoming clear that there are several "buckets" that apply here and any one customer may have action in more than one group.

6. Those with kits delivered with LCP. Technically these contracts have been fulfilled in the eyes of the law and court. Thus I am not sure that a claim for LCP parts replacement cost would be accepted as valid by the court. Everybody including Vans knows they can't ignore the issue. The reorganization plan will need to address the financial impact of whatever steps Vans takes to mitigate the LCP issue. Of import though, is the bankruptcy process stays any legal proceedings regarding LCP and provides some liability protection going forward.

abbreviated for space saving

Has anyone looked into filing a claim for "bucket 6"? I am going through the filing process this week for my deposits but also have an entire tail kit with LCP that I completed through Synergy. I recognize Vans is working the LCP issue and reaching out to customers; however, I doubt that process will be clear by the time the filing deadline is.
Based on the initial BMC notice of what a claim is, it seems to fall under under their definition.

 

[MIKE JG]

Has anyone looked into filing a claim for "bucket 6"? I am going through the filing process this week for my deposits but also have an entire tail kit with LCP that I completed through Synergy. I recognize Vans is working the LCP issue and reaching out to customers; however, I doubt that process will be clear by the time the filing deadline is.
Based on the initial BMC notice of what a claim is, it seems to fall under under their definition.

Same 'bucket' for me. Van's has already stated how they will remediate the LCP issue so I'm not sure filing a claim at this point would get us anywhere. They are replacing the critical parts at their cost and offering a "discount" for the other LCP's that kit holders choose to replace. Although I would argue paying a "discount" price on a part that had its price raised by 25-50% isn't a discount at all. But that's a whole different thread. Long story short, I don't think the Bk judge is going to side with any of us in this "bucket" for the cost of replacing those green and blue listed parts especially when you look at the current list of creditors who have filed legitimate claims against them.

 

[CizzoPilot]

Same 'bucket' for me. Van's has already stated how they will remediate the LCP issue so I'm not sure filing a claim at this point would get us anywhere. They are replacing the critical parts at their cost and offering a "discount" for the other LCP's that kit holders choose to replace. Although I would argue paying a "discount" price on a part that had its price raised by 25-50% isn't a discount at all. But that's a whole different thread. Long story short, I don't think the Bk judge is going to side with any of us in this "bucket" for the cost of replacing those green and blue listed parts especially when you look at the current list of creditors who have filed legitimate claims against them.

I'm not sure the judge will side with us either. That said, if we dont file a claim before the cutoff and the pricing or program changes more I am pretty sure we're out of luck. For my completed tail kit thats for sale, I've had zero bites in the month and a half its been posted here and fbook. Not sure the second hand market is ready for LCP affected completed kits and even with Vans' recent video, it could be quite a while before buyers have an appetite. Buyers could also be waiting to see how CH11 goes. I may file a separate claim for just the tail kit LCP so it doesnt affect my claim for deposits.

 

[RV6_flyer]

I have money on my RV-8 builder's account at Van's Aircraft that is left over from Wing Kit, Fuselage Kit, and return of landing gear.

I filled a claim.

I do NOT want money (cash / check) from Van's but would hope that it can be used as credit on future purchase of product from them.

IF the court says that I get nothing, no big deal but I will have a document to give my tax guy to see if he can use it to save me a few dollars on my income tax return.

 

[swift12]

I'm not sure the judge will side with us either. That said, if we dont file a claim before the cutoff and the pricing or program changes more I am pretty sure we're out of luck. For my completed tail kit thats for sale, I've had zero bites in the month and a half its been posted here and fbook. Not sure the second hand market is ready for LCP affected completed kits and even with Vans' recent video, it could be quite a while before buyers have an appetite. Buyers could also be waiting to see how CH11 goes. I may file a separate claim for just the tail kit LCP so it doesnt affect my claim for deposits.

Strange? The engineers say LCP affected parts are fine. Go figure

 

[PHXWalker]

I have money on my RV-8 builder's account at Van's Aircraft that is left over from Wing Kit, Fuselage Kit, and return of landing gear.

I filled a claim.

I do NOT want money (cash / check) from Van's but would hope that it can be used as credit on future purchase of product from them.

IF the court says that I get nothing, no big deal but I will have a document to give my tax guy to see if he can use it to save me a few dollars on my income tax return.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you file a claim? Did you use an attorney or just figure it out on your own? Thank you!

 

[PHXWalker]

Hartzell Propeller, Inc. filed a claim (Claim #388) today (2/8/2024) for $169,767.34.

Also, a former employee filed a $550K claim (Claim #387).

BMC Group

 

[RV6_flyer]

If you don't mind me asking, how did you file a claim? Did you use an attorney or just figure it out on your own? Thank you!

I went to the website, clicked on file a claim, and then filled out the online form. Near the end, there is an option to upload any supporting documents so I upload the several year old statement that I had from them. At first, I did not think it included the return landing gear credit but I found another document with just the landing gear that had the same date and credit amount found on the statement.

 

[RV8JD]

Also, a former employee filed a $550K claim (Claim #387).

BMC Group

Actually, he has several claims in addition to #387 ($550,000). He also has #384 ($430,025), #383 ($430,025), #377 ($63,015). They all seem to be claims related to Van's ESOP Plan.

 

[Jose_Antonio]

Actually, he has several claims in addition to #387 ($550,000). He also has #384 ($430,025), #383 ($430,025), #377 ($63,015). They all seem to be claims related to Van's ESOP Plan.

The largest claims are from Van himself (as Richard and Diane Van Grunsven Trust): #316 ($6.26M), #315 ($2M), #312 ($1M). Looks like this is for loans to the company which were collaterized by the company's assets. Interesting that at the same time customers are being asked to not file claims and accept that their deposits are now a free donations to Van's, the owner, even with the safety net of callateral, is filing claims against his own company... for good measure, I guess.

 

[airguy]

Hartzell Propeller, Inc. filed a claim (Claim #388) today (2/8/2024) for $169,767.34.

Also, a former employee filed a $550K claim (Claim #387).

BMC Group

Going through the claims list is interesting, if you know some of the backstory and people involved. There are several ESOP claims listed.

 

[lipper03]

Back to the question at hand, I think I'm correct that if I've signed all my re-orders (14A QB fuse, QB wings, and engine), and I'm getting my EMP kit lcp replacements (they shipped via ABF with my fully paid re-ordered finishing kit on 2/7/24), that I don't have any claims?

I'm seeing some claims for cost of lcp replacement, but can't tell if they just are looking for money back, or if they actually placed the order for them, and looking to not pay that amount. Most I see look like they are getting out and wanting deposits back.

I'm only at risk of my engine, qb fuse, and qb wing deposits at this point, which has been that way for going on 2+ years now, so not really any added risk until final payments (yes who knows when that will be, but at least I'm in the line). Any other thoughts I should be considering? At this point I just want to move on, and keep Van's going.

 

[N82VM]

You can claim anything, but when it comes time to reconcile that claim they’re going to point to the fact that you voluntarily accepted the new terms. Your claim will be dismissed.

In reference to post 67

 

[N804RV]

...Interesting that at the same time customers are being asked to not file claims and accept that their deposits are now a free donations to Van's, the owner, even with the safety net of callateral, is filing claims against his own company... for good measure, I guess.

Who is being asked NOT to file claims? I aksed BMC about filing a claim for my "paid-in-full" prop and their reply was, "You are always able to file a proof of claim for what amounts were owed to you as of the date the company filed - 12/4/2023."

 

[jimbom]

You can claim anything, but when it comes time to reconcile that claim they’re going to point to the fact that you voluntarily accepted the new terms. Your claim will be dismissed.

There are 67 posts preceding this one of yours. Unless you quote the post you're replying to, we can't be sure whose claim you're referring to that you think will be dismissed.

 

[N82VM]

There are 67 posts preceding this one of yours. Unless you quote the post you're replying to, we can't be sure whose claim you're referring to that you think will be dismissed.

Post 67

 

[CF86301]

You can claim anything, but when it comes time to reconcile that claim they’re going to point to the fact that you voluntarily accepted the new terms. Your claim will be dismissed.

In reference to post 67

My Third-Party Component Purchase and Deposit Modification Agreement has a clause under Terms and Conditions that reads "Deposit. For each order covered under this Agreement, the full amount of the deposit set forth in Appendix A will be applied to the Final Price as described below." The only deposit listed in Appendix A of the agreement is the original 25% deposit I made on my engine.

Van's Aircraft was not able to honor the terms of my original engine purchase agreement. What guarantee is there that Van's will be able to honor our revised purchase and deposit modification agreements for engines, props, avionics, and other "third party components"? Has the bankruptcy court approved these new agreements? The bankruptcy judge's signature does not appear anywhere on my agreement.

Consequently, I think it would be inappropriate to dismiss any claim I might file for my engine deposit before the engine has been delivered to me.

 

[N82VM]

My Third-Party Component Purchase and Deposit Modification Agreement has a clause under Terms and Conditions that reads "Deposit. For each order covered under this Agreement, the full amount of the deposit set forth in Appendix A will be applied to the Final Price as described below." The only deposit listed in Appendix A of the agreement is the original 25% deposit I made on my engine.

Van's Aircraft was not able to honor the terms of my original engine purchase agreement. What guarantee is there that Van's will be able to honor our revised purchase and deposit modification agreements for engines, props, avionics, and other "third party components"? Has the bankruptcy court approved these new agreements? The bankruptcy judge's signature does not appear anywhere on my agreement.

Consequently, I think it would be inappropriate to dismiss any claim I might file for my engine deposit before the engine has been delivered to me.

Your claim is for funds as of the ch 11 file and prior. When you accept the new terms the deposit is then applied to the new terms. It’s been brought forward into post ch 11 file date. It’s kinda the whole point of the new terms and benefits Vans. It gets you off the books as a creditor for anything pre ch 11 which is what you’d be claiming as.

Also read the options. You have 2 of them

1) accept the new terms and prior deposit applied
2) reject the terms and file a claim as a creditor

It doesn’t say accept new terms and make a claim. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

 

[DanNiendorff]

Your claim is for funds as of the ch 11 file and prior. When you accept the new terms the deposit is then applied to the new terms. It’s been brought forward into post ch 11 file date. It’s kinda the whole point of the new terms and benefits Vans. It gets you off the books as a creditor for anything pre ch 11 which is what you’d be claiming as.

Also read the options. You have 2 of them

1) accept the new terms and prior deposit applied
2) reject the terms and file a claim as a creditor

It doesn’t say accept new terms and make a claim. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Option #3 also exists….. which is to dispute the terms of the settlement offer and schedule a hearing. The judge would then hear your arguments, and resolve the disagreement. Perhaps in your favor, perhaps not.

 

[CF86301]

Option #3 also exists….. which is to dispute the terms of the settlement offer and schedule a hearing. The judge would then hear your arguments, and resolve the disagreement. Perhaps in your favor, perhaps not.

OK, I suppose that all makes sense. Not that it negates my continuing misgivings regarding whether Van's will be able to honor a revised purchase agreement.