I live at an aviation community in north central Florida (Love’s Landing) that has 2 intersecting grass runways. Several years ago a resident here was landing his tricycle gear RV. He was landing uphill when his nose wheel dug in causing the plane to flip. He died, his wife survived. A few weeks ago the Florida Old-Farts flew to Okechobee (paved) and the nearby OK Corral (turf). An RV landing there flipped but several other pilots ran to get the plane upright. He came out uninjured. I fly an RV-7A so I decided that the $350 for the Anti-Splat Nose Job 2 was cheap insurance. It took 3 days to get to Florida from California. It took a couple of hours to put it on.
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Anti-splat Nose Job 2
- Thread starter wjnmd
- Start date
I landed my 7A at a grass runway for the first time last weekend. I'm so glad I have the Anti-Splat Nose Job 2 on my plane. I also use the ultimate gust lock.
Excellent products!
Excellent products!
SwimmingDragonfly96
Well Known Member
Curious to hear what others think on this topic. I’ve seen quite a few folks with it say they wouldn’t recommend it, so I’ve held off.
Sportquattro
Well Known Member
First thing i ordered when I bought my partially built RV9A was the Nose Job, if it saves me just once it will be money well spent and I would recommend to any "A" model RV owner to invest in one
What could anyone complain about with this product? At my next inspection I think I will put on the “Lip Skid” too.
Planecrazy232
Well Known Member
These are all great products. I have them on my own 6A. However, bad technique with or without these products will not prevent an accident. Practice!!
It believe it starts with the takeoff and landing technique, followed by the pilot's personal selection of a suitable or unsuitable landing/takeoff surface. The Antisplat is my "insurance" policy: I have it, but I hopefully don't need to use it.
For me flying KELLI GIRL, every takeoff and landing is a soft-field takeoff and landing, even on paved runways.
For takeoffs, get the nose up as soon as it'll unstick: Hold that nose-high attitude and let the airplane fly off.
For landings, touch down on the mains and hold the nose up until it's time to lower it (don't let it drop), thus maintaining attitude control throughout.
I'm almost more worried about a rougher unpaved runway shaking my wheel fairings off the mounts, or cut "grass" stubble scrubbing the paint off my fiberglass. If Foreflight's runway condition description isn't "Excellent", I don't feel urged to go there. Cedar Mills 3T0 comes to mind...it's like buttah.
For me flying KELLI GIRL, every takeoff and landing is a soft-field takeoff and landing, even on paved runways.
For takeoffs, get the nose up as soon as it'll unstick: Hold that nose-high attitude and let the airplane fly off.
For landings, touch down on the mains and hold the nose up until it's time to lower it (don't let it drop), thus maintaining attitude control throughout.
I'm almost more worried about a rougher unpaved runway shaking my wheel fairings off the mounts, or cut "grass" stubble scrubbing the paint off my fiberglass. If Foreflight's runway condition description isn't "Excellent", I don't feel urged to go there. Cedar Mills 3T0 comes to mind...it's like buttah.
This
. I, too, have installed the nose job and skid plate, but treat it like insurance. I like grass, gravel, and rough surfaces (Furnace Creek), but not as adventurous as Vlad. When the day comes to upgrade/replace the engine, I’ll install the newer nose gear.
Tankerpilot75
Well Known Member
My RV7A has had an AntiSplat nose job on it since I purchased it from the builder in 2015. I’ve been extremely thankful twice that it was there. The first time was coming back from AirVenture and landing at a planned airport for refueling. Unfortunately the airport’s fuel tank was empty (too many people had already dropped in there because of cheap fuel) and I had to fly another 30 minutes to a second airport for gas. Due to an improperly, over loaded aircraft (I did say I was coming back from AirVenture) my cg was borderline aft at the first airport and definitely aft at the second airport. I developed a porpoise condition on landing , went around three times, before I added full nose down trim to stabilize the landing roll. The nose gear took a beating but held up!
The second time was taxing to parking (again an AirVenture trip) in the grass at OSH. I was following the marshaller’s guidance in tall grass at a rather quick rate due to soft ground and the nose gear hit an “unmarked“ concrete abutment. The aircraft came to a sudden stop and tipped over on its nose. I’m convinced that had the AntiSplat nose job not been installed the aircraft would have continued over - going upside down. As it was, the nose gear was bent and so was the AntiSplat brace. Aircraft spent nine months at OSH being repaired and waiting on a new prop and tear down /rebuild inspection.
My point being, it’s not always poor landing technique or rough grass runways that causes an RV to flip over or struggle for control. Sometimes it’s just pilot stupidity (aft cg) or plain bad luck (unmarked concrete abutment during taxi) that makes one thankful to have the AntiSplat Nose Job installed. I personally wouldn’t fly an A model without it.
I definitely wouldn’t takeoff or land on a non-hard surface runway without one and even then I’d make sure the surface was in great condition. On A models the nose gear is the “weakest link“ - why test your luck! Trust me - prop strikes are expensive $.
The second time was taxing to parking (again an AirVenture trip) in the grass at OSH. I was following the marshaller’s guidance in tall grass at a rather quick rate due to soft ground and the nose gear hit an “unmarked“ concrete abutment. The aircraft came to a sudden stop and tipped over on its nose. I’m convinced that had the AntiSplat nose job not been installed the aircraft would have continued over - going upside down. As it was, the nose gear was bent and so was the AntiSplat brace. Aircraft spent nine months at OSH being repaired and waiting on a new prop and tear down /rebuild inspection.
My point being, it’s not always poor landing technique or rough grass runways that causes an RV to flip over or struggle for control. Sometimes it’s just pilot stupidity (aft cg) or plain bad luck (unmarked concrete abutment during taxi) that makes one thankful to have the AntiSplat Nose Job installed. I personally wouldn’t fly an A model without it.
I definitely wouldn’t takeoff or land on a non-hard surface runway without one and even then I’d make sure the surface was in great condition. On A models the nose gear is the “weakest link“ - why test your luck! Trust me - prop strikes are expensive $.
Most nose overs occure at low speed on the roll out, aft stick at this speed has very little effect.
I believe the problem is the nose wheel bearings, when the standard #6 bolt is used. Bearings jam due to flexing of this bolt.
Spoke with Alan at Anti Splat and he has noted this on nose wheels that he has had in for modification.
Suggested solutions..Use a spacer between the bearings to make it more rigid...or..purchase Matco large diameter axle to do the same job..or..get Anti Splat to do their nose wheel modification
I believe the problem is the nose wheel bearings, when the standard #6 bolt is used. Bearings jam due to flexing of this bolt.
Spoke with Alan at Anti Splat and he has noted this on nose wheels that he has had in for modification.
Suggested solutions..Use a spacer between the bearings to make it more rigid...or..purchase Matco large diameter axle to do the same job..or..get Anti Splat to do their nose wheel modification
Well, since you actually formed it as a question…
One thing that comes to mind is it may induce a false sense of security.
A common statement ( even in this thread)) from new owners is “it was the first thing I bought”.
As already mentioned, an add on device; particularly if it has no proven level of benefit ( based on actual testing), and the fact that there has been nose gear failures when it was installed, is no replacement for good training an proficiency.
The thing that complicates it even more is that with the personality traits common with pilots, a lot of the people that have experienced nose gear failures probably thought they had training and proficiency well covered.
Majorpayne317641
Well Known Member
So you want test results for the nose gear but will make anecdotal generalities about pilots?
I think the owner of the company had his own hard landing with the nose job installed. Yes just one test case and no there was no control. I’m sure if someone was willing to do a hard landing without a nose job installed we could at least have one real example of with and without. He said he is sure his nose gear would have collapsed without it.
Even the cirrus parachute has its limits. Nothing is a full proof 100% with any design. Yes technique helps but adding a safety margin if it is in fact a true margin also helps.
No one will ever know the answer to this unless we test planes with and without the product. Ignoring the safety issues with such a test like this (flipping a plane with someone inside), I would never expect a vendor to do this testing on a product that costs less than $400 per unit even if it could be conducted safely.
FEA and solid works has its limitations too for anyone who will say that’s an alternative way to test this.
I do not own this product but have been following it. I’ve flown my plane into less than perfect prepared surfaces with my nose gear and always am nervous about it randomly folding over even with perfect technique (if anyone can ever be perfect 100% of the time, which I doubt).
My biggest reason for following this product is an off field forced landing. I am assuming my nose gear will fold over in a freshly plowed farm field after plenty of rain without this product. I have no idea if having it installed will help. I don’t want to test my plane in this scenario.
I fully agree with this part of your post. That is why it needs to be followed up with validation testing. There are lots of ways to do that that don’t require risk of pilots and actual aircraft.
The comments regarding piloting performance are based on decades of watching people land RV’s (and other brands for that matter). Nothing anecdotal about my judgement, and I am not alone in my opinion.
Over the years working the company booth at fly-ins I have had the chance to actually talk with quite a few people that have had nose gear failure accidents. Every one of those conversations were about incidents that the pilot admitted it was totally caused by bad decisions and performance on their part.
I am not saying that is the case 100% of the time, but it is with the sample group I have a personal connection to.
Majorpayne317641
Well Known Member
Ok I see your point. As for testing, operationally testing in a representative environment with the actual item being tested is the best way to test. It’s cost prohibitive, even with companies that have deep pockets. So there usually are other ways to test as you say. It does sometimes constrain the results though.
Look at Vans engineering analysis on LCP as an example, yes they say LCP is fine. More than likely it is fine. The only problem is we won’t really know this engineering analysis to be fact until airframes are flown to those hours in a statistically significant amount to say the engineering analysis was correct. It’s just a risk that needs to be accepted or rejected by the end user/operator/builder.
Ronny
I'm New Here
The Moral of the story is Don't land your Tricycle Gear RV on a grass runway.
Agreed
But there was at least testing done using a physical simulation.
This is a proven method that is fully accepted in industry; even to the level of Boeing/Airbus.
The OK Corral mishap was caused by trying to force it. He bounced pretty high twice and planted the nosewheel on the third.
Plan A is a go-around. Plan B is landing, and implemented if everything is just right - alignment, no drift, speed, height in the flare.
We all see a fair amount of nosewheel planes including RVs landing almost three-point, with the elevator nearly neutral, also flying final at 70 knots or more and touching down 1500-2000 feet past the threshold. In my -8A, 62 is good on final inside a quarter mile.
I land mine on a grass runway for just about every local flight I make.
And I have the original style nose gear fork still installed
A perfect assessment of the most common cause of RV (and all other brands as well) landing accidents.
People always argue that they can’t be 100% on their game, 100% of the time.
That is a fully valid argument.
Because of that, if pilots were at least close to the airspeed they should be when near the runway, and if at any point they had a mental thought of “I need the airplane to be on the runway now”, they would push the throttle in and go around, the majority of RV landing accidents probably would be avoided.
While that may be your takeaway, it's certainly not the moral for everyone. I've had my RV-6A for five years, live on a grass airstrip, and have made hundreds of landings on that airstrip without incident. Moral of the story actually is - use good soft field technique on landings, takeoffs, and taxiing and consider the antisplat nose job as added cushion, but not failproof.
Dugaru
Well Known Member
Well, if you’re ever going to land on grass, that’s the place to do it. It’s like a putting green.
If I had my own grass strip, and kept it up like Triple Tree, it would give me no worries.
But aside from that I’m with you. I’ve landed my -9A on fairly rough grass a few times and, at length, I have decided my airplane and neck are way too valuable for that sort of thing.
MacCool
Well Known Member
Around here, there are a few grass strips, ranging from putting green to scorched-earth. A couple of years ago I flew to a pancake breakfast at an airport that I too-late discovered was in the latter category. I do have an anti-splat nose job, but I guess my soft-field technique is sufficient in that at no point did I feel that my nose gear was in jeopardy. However, I did spend most of the next winter repairing my wheel pants as a result of that adventure. I hate fiberglass work so I'm very selective about grass field operations these days.
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DennisRhodes
Well Known Member
Agree completely, But I do fly an RV9 off a one way in and out 2000ft turf field . Controlling the airspeed in landing config is the key, at least for a RV9 . rvbuilder's quote pretty much sums up the action and reaction. That maybe should be a place card on the panel!
Mostly I object to a product being sold by using fear, uncertainty, and doubt to make it seem like a good idea.
The facts, near as I can tell:
- Both aircraft with and without anti-splat have tipped over on their back
- Both aircraft with and without anti-splat have collapsed the nosegear without tipping (prop strike, engine teardown, etc)
- Both aircraft with and without anti-splat have had hard landings where the pilots have thought "wow, that was really close, I almost folded the strut"
Not facts, but observations:
- Some of the tip-overs have been on recently-completed aircraft, which *may* correlate to low time, or low experience, on type
- People speaking against anti-splat tend to be the long-time VAF members, which *may* correlate to higher time, or higher experience, on type
- There are a lot more aircraft flying without anti-splat than with, so it's not unexpected that there would be less (in absolute quantity) tip-overs with anti-splat equipped aircraft than without
- With the large number of factors at play in each of these incidents, it is next to impossible to definitively say that having anti-splat is better or not... Strip roughness, approach speed, PIO, braking, tire inflation, soft/short field technique, time/experience on type, etc.
But this is exactly what makes it a great product. It might be great, and you can't prove it's bad. And there's no such thing as bad publicity, so the more we talk about it, the more the Anti-Splat name is kept in everyone's minds.
MacCool
Well Known Member
My airplane has the "Lip Skid", as well as the nose job, both installed by the previous owner. I don't know about the actual value of either, but I it seems the potential downside is pretty low. That said, regarding the Lip Skid, I've noted that it pays to be a little careful about how tight I caster the nose wheel in taxiing turns.
With the recent OK corral and all the other accidents "we RV" flyers with nose gears are blessed to have an affordable, easy re-inforcement.
(failure of a landing gear = substantial damage = accident per NTSB 830.2 requiring "immediate notification")
Before I fly into a grass strip I must know the condition.
I taxi on grass to the paved runway and it has limitations. Certain times of the year (monsoon rain's) can render the taxi conditions un-airworthy.
We have a 5'' nose wheel and tightly faired in wheel pants.
8'' tires is a good start for grass.
What was a good airport to fly out of in the mid 80's have now become a cow pasture, when I flew in there 2 years ago it was a mistake.
At the time my home field was still grass and many pilots were talking about how crumy our field was and compared to what was the best field in memory and another fly in community I quickly found out that my field was far superior.
I avoid grass strips for the most unless I have a good source or walk the strip and I have followed the advice of a EAA advisor whom has built 7 RV's and worked on countless others advising me to "always hold the stick full back when taxing and after landing" so as to not load the nose gear.
Get the anti-splat. Enjoy extra safety....why chance destroying your engine and prop.
Doug
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