[Toobuilder]

I’ve long been a student of the various accident reporting media available from even before I started flight training. Very easy to dissect the aftermath and wave off the results as “obvious” bad decisions that you, the intelligent, thoughtful and well prepared pilot are immune from. The problem with pilots in general though, is that we are wired “problem solvers”. If the engine starts running rough for example, most of us try to diagnose in the air, do a risk assessment based on that diagnosis, and often press on. Problem is, many times that diagnosis is wrong, and therefore our risk assessment is skewed. That “problem solving, real time risk assessment” trait is what got me into my IMC encounter. I was thoughtful and deliberate, but running on bad data. In my case, the decision to press was NOT based on ”get-there-itis” or other schedule pressure - it was simply another problem to be solved. And I was way wrong.

So yeah…. Bad decisions. But do not underestimate the appeal of inappropriately applying your well honed problem solving skills in-situ.

 

[rv8ch]

Very easy to dissect the aftermath and wave off the results as “obvious” bad decisions that you, the intelligent, thoughtful and well prepared pilot are immune from.

Very interesting point. Many crashes are caused by mistakes made by pilots that have more experience, more skills, and are probably smarter than I am. I think about this a lot, and remind myself that the only thing I can do is to try to learn something from their crash and the conditions leading up to it, and not repeat it. I had not considered the possibility you raised about being too focused on "problem solving." I can see how this would happen, and ironically it might actually be more likely the more you understand your aircraft's systems.

 

[davidkarlsberg]

Did the plane have pitot heat? Seems to me an iced over pitot tube maybe leading to the overspeed as he descended.

I do not remember, it was a very long time ago.

 

[jrs14855]

I did very little instructing at the Private Pilot level. My standard for the private Pilot level is the ability under the hood to make a 180 turn and then descend to a minimum safe altitude. That is not rocket science.
That the accident pilot wound up in the clouds at a relatively high altitude is troublesome. The tools we have today, IPAD with foreflight or equivalent it is inexcusable that anyone would not be constantly monitoring the weather immediately ahead as well as further ahead. So incredibly simple, especially compared to what was available 50 years ago.
Tom Cassutt was an Airline Captain. I remember him talking about being on top of a solid cloud layer in the Cassutt Racer. He said "not only lost but I didn't know what state I might be over". No radio, no instruments and less than 2 hours fuel.
While I agree that high time pilots still get themselves in trouble there is an interesting side note: I was involved in competition Aerobatics for over 20 years. Long before GPS I watched those pilots come and go in REALLY rotten weather. I can't remember a single fatal weather accident from that era.

 

[Toobuilder]

The tools we have today, IPAD with foreflight or equivalent it is inexcusable that anyone would not be constantly monitoring the weather immediately ahead as well as further ahead. So incredibly simple, especially compared to what was available 50 years ago.

Well, as someone who DID do the inadvertent IMC thing, I can tell you that I was “Joe Cool” while skirting the clouds, but went full “lizard brain” as soon as the windscreen went grey. I made the radio calls as normal, I focused on the EFIS, and started a climb straight ahead (towards safety, or so I thought). I had an IPad with weather…. had zero spare mental capacity to even look at it, much less formulate a new plan. Go straight, climb, don’t die. That’s all my brain could do.

 

[PhatRV]

Well, as someone who DID do the inadvertent IMC thing, I can tell you that I was “Joe Cool” while skirting the clouds, but went full “lizard brain” as soon as the windscreen went grey. I made the radio calls as normal, I focused on the EFIS, and started a climb straight ahead (towards safety, or so I thought). I had an IPad with weather…. had zero spare mental capacity to even look at it, much less formulate a new plan. Go straight, climb, don’t die. That’s all my brain could do.

This story reminds me of the RV10 event that was posted on VAF when it got into IMC and the pitot tube was iced and disabled the ADHARS. The video posted showed the flight became erratic due to the now non-functioning Garmin autopilot, despite the fact the pilot was IFR qualified.

 

[PhatRV]

rotten weather. I can't remember a single fatal weather accident from that era.

I think the internet viral wasn't invented at the time . Even five years ago, very few people talked about GA accidents. Then the AOPA ASI started producing really good accident videos, and then those who have a large internet following started to talk more about safety. The fact we know a lot more about accidents is due to our increasing attention to them and posts in VAF that get people talking. All good I think.

 

[Toobuilder]

Im conflicted about this post because I don't want to turn this thread into a "me" thing, but I did write an article for Kitplanes a few years ago and it is particularly relevant to this tragedy. I wrote it to hopefully prevent this type of thing, in fact.

I don't know the circumstances surrounding the accident pilot's thought process, but I certainly empathize.

 

[PaulvS]

Im conflicted about this post because I don't want to turn this thread into a "me" thing, but I did write an article for Kitplanes a few years ago and it is particularly relevant to this tragedy. I wrote it to hopefully prevent this type of thing, in fact.

I don't know the circumstances surrounding the accident pilot's thought process, but I certainly empathize.

Yikes that was scary reading but fortunately both you and your passenger survived, against the odds. I think that your story is relevant to this thread and if it helps to prevent just one instance of VFR into IMC then it has done its job, so thanks for sharing.

 

[Capt]

Very tragic outcome Whats more tragic is that it didn’t need to happen, and the next level up on the tragedy scale is that it will happen again! Asking why only has us all back here on various forums disgusting yet another avoidable accident!
I’ve been driving planes for nearly 45 years, ultralight to Airbus, retired now and only drive my planes in nice WX, of it looks nasty I stay on the ground and polish my planes, that way I get to go home for dinner, alive!

 

[Toobuilder]

The reason I wrote that thing was because I, like so many others who read these accident reports, often ask "WTF was he thinking...". Well, most of the time the pilot is not around any longer to ask, so I'm trying to speak "for" some of our departed aviators because by all rights I shouldn't be here either.

Bottom line: Don't underestimate your ability to talk yourself into a bad situation.

 

[bobrv7taildragger]

An instrument rating is a great tool but not necessary and could cause more problems than it cures. A bit like thinking a twin is safer but it just takes you a bit further to the scene of the accident when you dont have the experience or currency. A weekend warrior with limited I/F experience may be be more dangerous than a VFR pilot that makes a good decision to A..not go. B turn back. C divert or D out land. Being in a non Icing equipped aircraft with limited knowledge and thinking...It's ok...I can blast up through this if things get bad might set the pilot up with a false sense of security and lead them to make a dumb decision. Im fitting a heated pitot to my 7 but its a VFR aircraft. I have no intention of going IMC in it but rather than outland I would if i needed to. At least I wont lose my instruments. There is a difference between a number of pilots here and the weekend warriors. A lifetime of IFR experience and current. You get very little IFR instruction in a basic rating and need to stay current. I imagine not many are going to maintain those skills unless a professional pilot so i think its better to hone your VFR skills and decision making.....if you go IFR.....go up regularly and practice/stay current.

 

[DanH]

The reason I wrote that thing was because...

And you did good too. I have thought of your story and turned around.

 

[Webb]

For those that are VFR only, spend some time under the hood and practice barely holding the stick. The death grip on the controls is exactly that.
if your plane is properly trimmed before entering IMC, the turn around should be a none event. Better yet, turn before the IMC. A standard rate turn takes 60 seconds.

Above is when hand flying. if you are using one of the fancy autopilots, put it on heading bug and dial your way 180 degrees out.

As my instructor told me, use your superior decision making skills so you don’t have to use your superior fling skills.

 

[PhatRV]

This is the video that was posted by Randy Vanstory a few years ago. Since I am only a VFR pilot, my outcome would be a lot worse than this video.

 

[Saber25]

I received my instrument training at Ft. Rucker in 1970. Doss Aviation was hired for that phase of our training and usually it was an old gray beard instructor that had flown on the gauges shortly after their invention. Upon completion and our last flight, I remember vividly the instructor pulling out what looked like a business card with a total blue background and in the middle a 3/8-inch hole. He held the card up to the sky and solemnly stated " when the color in the hole matches the color of the card, you're good to go". A few times in Vietnam, I was forced into clouds to evade the heat seeking shoulder fired missiles coming for my Cobra Gunship. I had to smile thinking of his admonition as I was embraced by the soft grayness of the cloud which hid my tell tail heat signature at that moment.

Flying the RV-4 the past 35 years, the advice given in 1970 still works for me.

 

[bobrv7taildragger]

This is the video that was posted by Randy Vanstory a few years ago. Since I am only a VFR pilot, my outcome would be a lot worse than this video.

good on him for posting this and exactly what i was alluding to. As a professional pilot with 23000 hours and 20000 of it IFR I can make educated comment. Pitot heat was forgotten simply due to inexperience....and if the pitot is iced up what is happening to the aircraft....how do you get out of it...what is your minimum safe altitude...how far do you have to descend to start removing the ice...can you descend?...do you have an escape route?...A lot of aircraft autopilots will not be happy to fly an aircraft once certain instrumentation is being incorrectly fed. He was right...pitch and power...that will keep you up there and precisely what we do in jets should you have total ADHRS air input data failure. Most jets have a lot of redundancy and the 787 has to lose a hell of a lot of stuff before you end up in the unreliable airspeed scenario. In fact its very unlikely to happen. However in these little planes we have little redundancy and should know how the AP would react to loss of data. If its a simple wing and pitch leveller based on GPS or IRS signals and not dependant on air then using the autopilot would be best. To be fair i am not up with small aircraft systems as yet so im not entirely sure of how the AP would react....the main point being...a little bit of knowledge can be more dangerous than knowing nothing and staying where you belong...if you are not IFR rated. Once I was training a new student in a piper arrow in IMC over an NDB...(yes a long time ago!) and he lost it....he trusted his feelings and I took the controls before we were in knife edge flight. Unless you are trained AND stay current you do not belong in IMC/ICE etc so go under the hood if you want to give you some level of hope if the worst happens and with little experience that wont achieve much but much better would be....."not to be there in the first place"

 

[rocketman1988]

good on him for posting this and exactly what i was alluding to. As a professional pilot with 23000 hours and 20000 of it IFR I can make educated comment. Pitot heat was forgotten simply due to inexperience....and if the pitot is iced up what is happening to the aircraft....how do you get out of it...what is your minimum safe altitude...how far do you have to descend to start removing the ice...can you descend?...do you have an escape route?...A lot of aircraft autopilots will not be happy to fly an aircraft once certain instrumentation is being incorrectly fed. He was right...pitch and power...that will keep you up there and precisely what we do in jets should you have total ADHRS air input data failure. Most jets have a lot of redundancy and the 787 has to lose a hell of a lot of stuff before you end up in the unreliable airspeed scenario. In fact its very unlikely to happen. However in these little planes we have little redundancy and should know how the AP would react to loss of data. If its a simple wing and pitch leveller based on GPS or IRS signals and not dependant on air then using the autopilot would be best. To be fair i am not up with small aircraft systems as yet so im not entirely sure of how the AP would react....the main point being...a little bit of knowledge can be more dangerous than knowing nothing and staying where you belong...if you are not IFR rated. Once I was training a new student in a piper arrow in IMC over an NDB...(yes a long time ago!) and he lost it....he trusted his feelings and I took the controls before we were in knife edge flight. Unless you are trained AND stay current you do not belong in IMC/ICE etc so go under the hood if you want to give you some level of hope if the worst happens and with little experience that wont achieve much but much better would be....."not to be there in the first place"

You mean you have 20000 hours on an IFR flight plan, right?

 

[Roadjunkie1]

For those that are VFR only, spend some time under the hood and practice barely holding the stick. The death grip on the controls is exactly that.
if your plane is properly trimmed before entering IMC, the turn around should be a none event.

Great advice! People will suddenly grip the stick when something untoward happens. Take a breath! Your airplane was likely going straight and level when you entered the cloud! Now: calmly do the 180 degree turn and get OUT of the cloud! With your training and PRACTICE (did I mention practice?), this should be a momentary nonevent.

Better yet, turn before the IMC. A standard rate turn takes 60 seconds.

If you have the old steam gauge electric turn and bank, it will have "2 minutes" on the face. That can confuse some people who haven't paid attention or practiced using it: 2 minutes is how long it takes if the instrument wings are on the R/L ticks or the needle on the 'dog house' to turn 360 degrees. So: a 180 degree turn takes 60 seconds. Hit the timer or start counting potatoes!

As my instructor told me, use your superior decision making skills so you don’t have to use your superior fling skills.

Also great advice!

 

[jbDC9]

You mean you have 20000 hours on an IFR flight plan, right?

Right. I‘m a “pro pilot” with close to 31000 hours; my logbook shows maybe 6-700 hrs of actual IMC… IFR is not IMC.

 

[rocketman1988]

Right. I‘m a “pro pilot” with close to 31000 hours; my logbook shows maybe 6-700 hrs of actual IMC… IFR is not IMC.

Me too. IMC time is the tiniest fraction of the total and time spent vfr on an IFR flight plan is not the same.

That is why I think it is really important to get my students some actual IMC while they are training. It is valuable experience.

 

[jrs14855]

In the US the first aircraft certification was in 1927 and the first pilot certification was in 1928. Pilots withe previous experience were "grandfathered in" starting in 1928. Lindbergh
made the Paris flight with just a turn and bank and a fancy compass. A long night of instrument flying in an airplane that was unstable by design.
Bob Buck read all he could find about instrument flying. He departed the Newark area in his Pitcairn Mailwing in low IMC conditions headed for CT where he knew the waather was good. That was the start of his instrument training. No radio and just a T&B.
I wonder how many instrument rated pilots today can keep the airplane right side up for 15 minutes with just a T&B and altimeter.

 

[Carlos151]

It is definitely crazy what you see and hear out there sometimes.

Personally I start looking at weather 5 days ahead of flying a cross country flight and continue to check it until I climb in the airplane, then check it enroute with ADSB and listening to area AWOS reports regularly.

Case in point about other pilots:

The other day I flew to Knoxville downtown airport (KDKX). Weather forecast consistently showed that fog would be gone by 0800L so I launched at 0700 CDT (0800 @ KDKX). Get there and reported vis is 1/4 mile FG. Say it isn't so, the weather forecast was wrong, now that's a first CAVU east and west of the TN river so I just started holding and ended doing that for a little over 2 hours because I had plenty of fuel before needing to divert. During that time I'm just listening to Knoxville approach and this is what I personally heard:

Bonanza heading to KTYS: approach control reports 1 OVC, vis 1/16 fog, RVR 1200/1000/800, "say your intentions".
Bonanza: "We'd like to fly the approach and see how it goes" Lowest approach minimums are 1/2 mile visibility for runway 05L. They fly the approach and surprise, surprise, they went missed approach and thankfully headed to Gatlinburg.

Express flight heading to KTYS (here's your "professional" pilot)
Approach reports the same weather and asks "what weather minimums do you need?"
Express: "200 and 1/2"
Approach: "which one, 200, 1/2, or both"
Express: "well visibility is controlling so I guess 1/2"
Approach: "say your intentions"
Express: "we'd like to fly the approach and take a look"
Approach clears them they fly the approach and surprise, surprise, they miss and divert to GSP.

Last one, C172 heading to KDKX, same as me. KDKX reporting 300 OVC 1/4 FG by now.
Approach: "say your intentions"
C172: "standby, I'm looking at their approaches"
Mind you the best they got is a LOC 26 or an RNAV 26 and you need 1 mile visibility which we are nowhere near.
This guy gets cleared for an RNAV approach, makes it just past the IAF, and wisely decides to go missed approach early.

All three of these incidents, for lack of a better word, happened in the span of 2 hours with supposedly instrument rated pilots starting approaches with the weather reported at or below minimums. And you want to know why our insurance premiums keep going up? A whole lot of bad decisions been made out there. Thankfully nobody died on that day around Knoxville. After holding for a couple of hours, fog burned off and a VFR entry into KDKX was uneventful. Moral of the story, just because you have an instrument ticket, doesn't mean you can intentionally disregard the rules.


§ 135.225 IFR: Takeoff, approach and landing minimums.
(a) Except to the extent permitted by paragraphs (b) and (j) of this section, no pilot may begin an instrument approach procedure to an airport unless—

(1) That airport has a weather reporting facility operated by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by U.S. National Weather Service, or a source approved by the Administrator; and

(2) The latest weather report issued by that weather reporting facility indicates that weather conditions are at or above the authorized IFR landing minimums for that airport.

 

[BobTurner]

§ 135.225 IFR: Takeoff, approach and landing minimums.
(a) Except to the extent permitted by paragraphs (b) and (j) of this section, no pilot may begin an instrument approach procedure to an airport unless—

(1) That airport has a weather reporting facility operated by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by U.S. National Weather Service, or a source approved by the Administrator; and

(2) The latest weather report issued by that weather reporting facility indicates that weather conditions are at or above the authorized IFR landing minimums for that airport.

Yes, initiating that approach was illegal for the commercial jet, and I’m surprised ATC allowed it. Usually, ATC won’t clear me, either, until I remind them that part 91 has the ‘look-see’ privilege. So why would I do it? Because training instrument students in actual wx is psychologically different than under the hood. Some are really confused, they can’t believe they’re at the MAP, on altitude, but see nothing. Some hesitate to start the miss until I say something. But they learn the lesson, a lot better than me just preaching to them. Same thing goes for landing out of an ILS (or LPV) on a dark night with vis 1/2 in fog. Nothing can prepare you for it other than actual experience. Point is, you cannot know what motivated the Bonanza guy. And the 172 pilot quickly and early changed his mind. Maybe learning or teaching experiences for both of them?

 

[jrs14855]

When the temp gets to 110 plus I have very little interest in anything that isn't air conditioned. So from mid May on I flight plan to WI just for amusement. This year I will be going on to the NE so I will be looking at that as well. As I get closer to departure time I spend a lot of time looking at prog charts as well as weather channel long range forecasts.

 

[jrs14855]

ATC does not allow or disallow approach or takeoff clearance based on weather EXCEPT for VFR operations. It is VERY rare for a airline pilot to give advice to anyone in a smaller airplane. XYZ airlines at Chicago Midway: tell the guy in the MU2 if he turns the instrument lights down low and doesn't use the landing lights he MIGHT see the runway. Excellent advice. That was already my plan but much appreciated.
The cowboys, lunatics and misfits, from the 70's: we landed with 1000 rvr, unloaded some freight and when we took of it was zero zero. never a word from the controller or any follow up.
Same Captain: 30,000# of dynamite in the back. Billy was our mechanic. I was ready to close the door. Billy summoned me to the bottom of the stairs. He said "don't let that lunatic kill you now heah". I said something like "not going to happen". The Capt was known among the copilots as "crash and burn".
A LEGAL 700/700/600 rvr takeoff at 155 knots is an interesting ride.

 

[stigaro]

This is the video that was posted by Randy Vanstory a few years ago. Since I am only a VFR pilot, my outcome would be a lot worse than this video.

This is an incredibly informative and humbling video. Hats off to Randy for posting this in an effort to reduce the chances of such a thing happening again.

 

[vic syracuse]

Spatial disorientation is insidious and deadly. When I was flight instructing in Cleveland ohio I used to take students to the Burke Lakefront airport at night. Traffic was a right turnout over the water. Every one of them lost control. It drove the message home.
It's easy to sit back and "judge" or wonder why. The reality is that instrument flying is hard even for those who are rated if they are not proficient. How do you instill in a pilot that pushing the weather usually has a bad outcomes? More time should be spent on decision-making and how to execute 180's with and without autopilots. At the end of the day some pilots can't be taught. I was checking out a new owner of a 182 many years back. He needed 5 hours for an insurance signoff. During the last hour I asked him to engage the autopilot and execute a 180, and call flight service for a weather update. He looked right at me and said that wasn't required as part of the checkout. I said we are done and we flew home. I refused to do a signoff.
None of this is directed at the accident pilot being discussed here. I'm just opining that we can't do anything about him, but all of use should think about how we woudl handle the same situation, and practice it once in a while. Nobody plans on crashing.

Vic

 

[jrs14855]

I will take Vic's excellent points in a slightly different direction. I recently had a conversation with a local instructor about a nearby fatal accident. The instructor stated that he offered the accident pilot a Flight Review. The pilot turned him down. That brings up the other issue-did he have a medical or basic med?? Accident final reports frequently have a blank space next to flight review. The issue is that there is no requirement that a pilot carry proof of flight review when performing as PIC. Nor does the FAA have any record of FR.
I like the idea -proposed in AOPA Article. Get an additional rating instead of FR. Glider is one of the easier ones. Relatively simple and VERY educational. Rope break and turn back at 200' is an entirely new perspective. Aerobatic training if you have none.
The problem children are scared to death to take a flight review. Probably more scared of the ground portion than flight.
I believe that even highly experienced pilots have their own issues. One may hate crosswind landings. One may hate tight instrument approaches.
The thing that came the easiest for me was instrument training. I did it completely backwards. Started in a Luscombe with just a Turn and Bank, hood and safety pilot. Learned as much as I could that way with incremental steps to better equipment and then got the required dual.
My best ever check ride was the instrument rating with the FAA. From the very first time I couldn't get enough of flying in the clouds.

 

[airguy]

Spatial disorientation is insidious and deadly. When I was flight instructing in Cleveland ohio I used to take students to the Burke Lakefront airport at night. Traffic was a right turnout over the water. Every one of them lost control. It drove the message home.

Vic

My private strip is out in the middle of farm country - no lights around for a horizon, and no runway lights. On a dark night takeoff you can see just fine by the landing lights on the runway - right up until the instant you raise the nose. The lights go up, and the runway goes away, and you are now effectively hard IMC at an altitude of zero with the mains still on the deck.

Takes a little planning and mental adjustment for sure. You don't rotate early on my runway at night, you need liftoff speed when the nose comes up, and you are committed once it does.

I made the decision several years ago that all my night ops are IFR, regardless of weather. I want the extra layer it provides.

 

[jrs14855]

The next issue with EAB is equipment failure. I think it is highly probably that builders who do their own avionics have possible failure modes they have never considered. An avionics master switch is a pretty standard item. I have the EFIS and T&B on separate switches. The EFIS has a standby battery. I have a hand held GPS mounted on the panel with a panel display page. All this for a day VFR airplane.
Many years ago an airline 727 took off from NY headed north. Just a few miles north the airplane started making violent up and down pitch excursions. Final accident report, crew failed to turn on pitot heat. they then chased the airspeed back and forth from near stall to 350 knots and finally dove into the ground. Today one would look at the GPS ground speed and then check the pitot heat.
There are several other similar incidents. A Jet Commander lies at the bottom of Lake Champlain. That type of accident resulted in mandatory standby attitude gyro's for all turbojet aircraft. However the rule was flawed. The intent was a standby battery for the gyro in case of total electrical failure. Some operators got away with powering the attitude gyro from the emergency buss.

 

[jrs14855]

The local ag operation operated at night for a long time. I spoke to the original owner and he told me they installed their own lights and self trained. In that era the runway was lighted but the lights are now gone. There are a couple of other people who take off there at night. Very narrow runway with no markings. I wonder how many are prepared for a total electrical failure 10 knots sort of flying speed. My employer had a series of total electrical failures. In thinking about the issues I realized that there was no reasonable alternate airport that was not pilot controlled lighting. So I practiced no runway light no landing light approaches to lower and lower altitudes until I was confident I could land at home base with no landing lights and no runway lights. In those days I was too broke to buy a hand held comm radio.

 

[Toobuilder]

How do you instill in a pilot that pushing the weather usually has a bad outcomes?

Because "usually" it's fine, and that success builds misplaced confidence that you can repeat it next time.

Until you can't.

 

[PaulvS]

Back to the accident report and trying to understand what might have led to the loss of control and subsequent overspeed. It is apparent that the aeroplane was equipped with an autopilot, based on the earlier stable flight path.

The NTSB documents do not mention whether the pitot was heated or not. The Dynon D10 did not record any flight data and the air speeds in the report are derived from a model:



It appears that the aircraft entered a stall at about 08:31 and recovered, followed by another stall and recovery. There is a further 7 minutes of data before it ceased. There is consensus that the pilot should have not entered IMC but others have done so and managed to survive and I'm wondering why his autopilot did not save them in spite of the pilot apparently becoming disorientated.

 

[bobrv7taildragger]

You mean you have 20000 hours on an IFR flight plan, right?

of course. I said IFR (instrument flight rules) Not IMC (instrument meteorological conditions) bit odd to think otherwise?

quote..."20000 of it IFR "

 

[bobrv7taildragger]

Right. I‘m a “pro pilot” with close to 31000 hours; my logbook shows maybe 6-700 hrs of actual IMC… IFR is not IMC.

no one said it wasn't. I said IFR. not IMC. In fact it goes a lot further than that. a lot of my time is in a bunk asleep or flying at night. In clear conditions. Under IFR we are used the sights sounds and feelings of flying by instruments. The average weekend warrior is not. Maybe read my post more carefully and be less critical of Picking the fly shit out f the pepper here guys. the point I make is valid wether you agree or not.

 

[bobrv7taildragger]

Me too. IMC time is the tiniest fraction of the total and time spent vfr on an IFR flight plan is not the same.

That is why I think it is really important to get my students some actual IMC while they are training. It is valuable experience.

probably enough to be dangerous then? no doubt its valuable but unlikely to save those unpractised, inexperienced and uncurrent. my point still valid.

 

[rocketman1988]

of course. I said IFR (instrument flight rules) Not IMC (instrument meteorological conditions) bit odd to think otherwise?

quote..."20000 of it IFR "

Not sure why you seem a bit defensive.

Unfortunately, on these boards, there can be a lack of common frame of reference; in this case, some may use IFR and IMC interchangeably. So clarification is sometimes required and it isn’t an attack of any kind.

I agree the practice and currency is important, my point is an extension of that as actual IMC experience is invaluable training to have, prior to finding yourself there inadvertently.

 

[bobrv7taildragger]

Not sure why you seem a bit defensive.

Unfortunately, on these boards, there can be a lack of common frame of reference; in this case, some may use IFR and IMC interchangeably. So clarification is sometimes required and it isn’t an attack of any kind.

I agree the practice and currency is important, my point is an extension of that as actual IMC experience is invaluable training to have, prior to finding yourself there inadvertently.

Because I often find on forums people looking for fault rather than constructive criticism. Out of all my points the only comment was IFR versus IMC. So forgive me if I seem defensive. I agree the point of taking students into IMC to show them why they don’t want to be in it in the first place but I do stand by what I say with regards a little bit of exposure won’t save most VFR pilots from sprinkling out the bottom of the cloud at 260 knots. Maybe a few. In my early days as a fledgling PPL my uncle (very experienced crop duster pilot) flew with me in an old fast back 150. At 5 feet he pulled straight up then gave me control. Then took control again before I killed us. The point was why not to show off. That old 150 barely climbed 200 feet but he pulled out ….at 5 feet above the river. Lesson learned and never forgotten. Show someone why you shouldn’t do something. Personally I believe a VFR pilot should be shown but not taught to fly in cloud unless they intend to maintain those skills or you will get the odd person that “uses” those skills when they really shouldn’t and ends up sprinkling out of a cloud. Or do an IFR rating and maintain currency.