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02-22-2009, 06:32 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LI, NY
Posts: 409
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Landing, 3 Point Versus Wheel
I now have 16 hours on my 6. It's flying great and the only problem I'm having is landing. I never had a problem landing anything. I've flown a number of different aircraft including ultralights and hang gliders. I always landed tail draggers 3 point and always greased them on. My 6 is really pi$$ing me off. I keep on getting little bounces and I think I know whats happing now. I figured I get the opinoin of some more experienced RV pilots. Last night was very calm, the wind was right down the runway. I would slow her down and flair 1 foot off the runway. With full flaps I'm floating down the runway totally in control. As she slows I am pulling back slowly more and more on the stick and all of a sudden the bottom drops out and she bounces. It happens very fast. If I'm a little higher and I have time to catch it I end up over controling it and then bouncing. I just seems that she stops flying very fast at that point and its just too quick to gracefully land. If I'm and inch off the ground I'm ok but any higher and I get a bounce. My RV friends are all telling me to wheel land it. I have tried a few and I can get her on without bouncing, though still not as gracefull as I would like. I need more experience with wheel landings. Any tips? Is wheel landing just the way RVs like to land? Am I loosing my touch?
__________________
Richard Fazio
LI, NY
N966RV
RV-6 Slider
O-360
FP Wood Prop
Last edited by RFazio : 02-22-2009 at 07:42 AM.
Reason: none
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02-22-2009, 07:13 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
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I was checked out in a RV-6 before flying my 7 (in the TD configuration) and thought the 6 was the worst landing airplane I ever flew. (later I learned one problem that day was the tail wheel steering was broken - but beyond that the airplane seemed very unstable near the runway at minimum speed)
It seems the 6 and the 7 are rigged such that in a full stall landing (3 pointer) the tail wheel touches down before the mains so it is a little pogo act with full aft stick until everything quits flying. It's not unsafe, just uncomfortable and a light year from a smooth squeaker. That's why guys recommend wheel landings. They don't like ending a flight with the pogo dance.
I like squeakers. Getting such a landing with the TD configuration is a challenge. Experienced pilots do it all the time but I don't think it is possible fully stalled, the tail wheel may squeak on but the mains will plop on. With a wheel landing, there is more control and the landing can be finessed into a squeaker. The problem I have with that technique is runway needed to do it well. A wheel landing is way above stall speed and that equates to more runway needed to do it well. If you've got 3000+ feet to play with, all is well. But if it is 2200' over trees, you do not have that option, it must be a minimum speed approach and landing, and that means a full stall landing. It is also why a very experienced RV-4 friend will not land on this runway.
Also, much of landing technique is in what one is accustomed to. If the situation is outside the usual envelope, one does not feel comfortable and that's good. Smart pilots know the envelope they have for themselves and respect it.
With regard to your frustration, if you've got the runway, work on the wheel landings and get it down to squeakers. That will make you feel better and then you can go back and work on the pogo landings.
__________________
RV-12 Build Helper
RV-7A...Sold #70374
The RV-8...Sold #83261
I'm in, dues paid 2019 This place is worth it!
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02-22-2009, 07:14 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Watkinsville, GA
Posts: 626
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I can't really answer, but it sounds a little like the experience I had in my 8. I was simply getting a few degrees too nose high, so when I stopped easing that stick back a little sooner, it began to work out fine.
The 8 does love to wheel land, but I can usually do either one, but get that nose a few degrees high, and I get a bounce, due in part to the tailwheel touching first followed by -- the things stops flying at that higher slightly angle of attack. Guess its just a bad attitude thing!
Only a suggestion--may not apply at all
__________________
Marshall Jacobson
"Miss Sue"
RV-8 80749 slow build taildragger
7.5 year build first flight Dec 2005
SOLD at 540 hours and 10 years of FUN
N68AK
Watkinsville, Georgia
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02-22-2009, 07:39 AM
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been here awhile
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator
I like squeakers. Getting such a landing with the TD configuration is a challenge. Experienced pilots do it all the time but I don't think it is possible fully stalled, the tail wheel may squeak on but the mains will plop on. With a wheel landing, there is more control and the landing can be finessed into a squeaker. The problem I have with that technique is runway needed to do it well. A wheel landing is way above stall speed and that equates to more runway needed to do it well. If you've got 3000+ feet to play with, all is well. But if it is 2200' over trees, you do not have that option, it must be a minimum speed approach and landing, and that means a full stall landing. It is also why a very experienced RV-4 friend will not land on this runway.
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My RV-6 routinely lands on the main wheels on grass runways less than 2000' long. I have found a wheel landing with the tail slightly below level attitude and with full flaps can be made in about the same distance as a three pointer. These "tail low" wheel landings are more consistent for me than a three pointer. Using full flaps lowers the nose and makes it easy to stick the mains once they touch. However, a steep approach over trees is definitely a challenge.
One reason I am able to get short wheel landings is the religious use of an angle of attack indicator. Watching the LRI (still getting accustomed to the AOA indicator in the Dynon) I come over the fence at an AOA that I know is safe but still slow enough for short field landings. I would be reluctant to squeeze max landing performance out of my plane without a well calibrated AOA indicator.
Last edited by Sam Buchanan : 02-22-2009 at 07:43 AM.
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02-22-2009, 08:19 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bennington, Vermont USA
Posts: 1,301
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Van's Article
Van himself did a good article, or series of articles in the RViator a few years ago. I'll see if I can find it for reference - it might be on the company web page too. It was all about nailing the approach if I remember which backs up the "Control he AoA" argument.
Jim Sharkey
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02-22-2009, 08:33 AM
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fugio ergo sum
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Carlsbad, NM
Posts: 1,912
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For me the smoothness of the three-pointer seems to be all about how good my perception is, that day, of how far above the runway I am. If I go to the three point attitude at 6 or 8 inches above the runway the results will be as you indicated, sort of a thumper. For some reason this goes in streaks. Sometimes I have a real good feeling that I am an inch or two high. When that happens, you get greasers.
There seems to be some terminology confusion, still. Three point and full stall are not necessarily synonymous. Normally, in an RV, if you do a full stall landing, it is ugly, because, yes indeed, the mains will be high in the air when the tailwheel touches.
And just to confirm that it takes all kinds, I do notably more consistent three-pointers than wheelies, although I rarely do wheelies and that may be the reason.
__________________
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
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02-22-2009, 09:23 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n5lp
There seems to be some terminology confusion, still. Three point and full stall are not necessarily synonymous. Normally, in an RV, if you do a full stall landing, it is ugly, because, yes indeed, the mains will be high in the air when the tailwheel touches.
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Larry makes a very good point here. To 3-point an RV, the correct term is "attitude" landing, not "full stall." Get used the visuals of a 3-point attitude, flare to that point and hold it until it settles.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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02-22-2009, 09:47 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,348
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Use a little less flap?
I find that full flaps on my 6 is only necessary if I want an aggressive, plop it on and stick it, short, short, landing. The timing of that needs to be pretty solid or you will bounce, but it is a non event if you keep the stick back.
I now use a touch up from full flaps and have no issues making decent three points and still land and roll out in less than 1000'.
I pull the throttle to idle on final most of the time. That is how I was taught. If you carry a little power, you might three point better, but you risk floating more.
The shorter wing of the 6 does feel differently than the 7 I have flown and I would say it is a little touchier near the ground. Still, the easiest airplane I have ever landed.
__________________
Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.
RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
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02-22-2009, 10:03 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sandy Valley,Nevada 3L2
Posts: 151
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Judicious use of power will check your decent rate thus making contact smooth. At altitude fly a landing configuration, check your decent rate and add the appropriate power for the weight. Don't forget the use of power as these little planes decend well at landing speeds. Your landing airspeed will dictate whether you wheel land or 3 point. An old tailwheel pilot advises the best wheel or 3 point, Take what ever comes first.
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RV6A, RV7, RV6 Wing
Living with my 6A at 3L2 near Las Vegas
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02-22-2009, 10:10 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: spokane, wa
Posts: 805
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Not sure if I qualify to give advice since I'm not flying an RV yet. But I do fly a kitfox(tailwheel) and that thing is very touchy and I've been told and I agree, it is tough to land. I fly quit a bit, usually every day. I do spot landings and others to keep from getting bored. Now I've done every thing on landings and have tried different things to help out the landing. I find that if you have too much prop, meaning a fixed prop on landing you will float almost forever. I guess my question now would be, what prop do you have?
Next if the idle is too high can cause floating, which is what I think you are having. If the prop is set too high, coarse, or fixed pitch than you have more fan blowing, if the idle is set too high, even with a cs prop you can float.
My solution is to lower the idle as far down as you can, doesn't mean you run on the ground at this setting, just means you have a tool in your bag that allows you to pop off the power to get er down, so to speak. With a flat prop and low idle you can really slow yourself down quick and than you raise the idle back up on that last entry to the numbers, than if I can't get the plane down on the runway, I take and pull off the power to get it to sink on the runway, just as it touches, I put the throttle where normal idle is. I have the Rotax engine and this really works sweet for me. I have my Rotax set at 600rpm, it's suppose to be set at 1800. I always run it at 1800, and never let it run rough. Odd thing, in the air when the aircraft is flying, I can pull all the way off and it's nice and smooth, but I sure slow down. way cool.
On wheel landings, if I make a perfect wheel touch down, but the idle is up or at normal, I find it very hard to lower the tail, it goes and goes with the tail up. If I pull the idle all the way off, than the tail comes down, as it makes contact, than I raise the idle back up.
Now, I don't know your configuration, but I would check your idle and make sure it is down, not running even a little to fast. If possible, lower the idle to the lowest before quiting. Not sure if you even want to have that option. But I love it. Not sure how low you can go with a lyc, I'm sure I'll find out in the future, because I love low rpm settings.
Now, when I did my transision training, I know in a 6A, but, I found the only way to land it was to fly it right to the runway, as soon as it touched on the mains, and the nose was already up off the runway, I pulled all power off, which wasn't very much and it stayed down.
Make sure your approach speeds are correct. On my fox, the stall is about 40, lower in ground effect, about 38. If I'm doing a wheel landing, I like 60mph just before the runway, maybe 200ft out. If I'm doing a 3point, I want 50mph at 200ft. out.
Have you flown with an instructor, preferably somebody with rv experience? Might concider doing that. That way someone can watch you and evaluate what is going on.
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