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Heated Pitot necessary?

R7237

Well Known Member
Might be a dumb question, but couldn?t find in the forums. Finishing the fuselage on an RV-12iS. Will be certified as an EAB for engine purposes and am installing an AFS 5600 in the panel. I intend on putting a NAV radio in it to use as an IFR trainer to obtain my next certification. I will have a 50 amp alternator so I will have power to drive the pitot if necessary. Question is do I need a heated Pitot to certify the static/pitot system for IFR use? I don?t intend on flying in actual IMC conditions and the only reason I would put a heated pitot in the plane is for flight Trainning purposes. Thanks in advance.
 
No heated pitot is required for ifr use.
Now my two cents that you didn?t ask for: IMHO as a cfii ifr training that never involves actual IMC is borderline negligent. No it?s not required by the FARs. No it?s not really any different than a good hood (especially at night). But the psychology is huge! I have watched any number of pilots flying just fine under the hood, but when I said ?we just entered the clouds? their performance went way downhill. I strongly advise having someone else beside you for your first actual IMC experience. Now, does that mean you need pitot heat? Not if it?s above freezing. Another question: how does your efis respond to zero airspeed data? Does it still find an attitude solution? Something to think about. Good luck with your training, it?s a tough rating to get but will make you a more precise pilot.
 
No heated pitot is required for ifr use.
Now my two cents that you didn?t ask for: IMHO as a cfii ifr training that never involves actual IMC is borderline negligent. No it?s not required by the FARs. No it?s not really any different than a good hood (especially at night). But the psychology is huge! I have watched any number of pilots flying just fine under the hood, but when I said ?we just entered the clouds? their performance went way downhill. I strongly advise having someone else beside you for your first actual IMC experience. Now, does that mean you need pitot heat? Not if it?s above freezing. Another question: how does your efis respond to zero airspeed data? Does it still find an attitude solution? Something to think about. Good luck with your training, it?s a tough rating to get but will make you a more precise pilot.
Concur with one exception.
Airfoil icing can occur when the temperature is 3?-5?f above freezing.
I think a heated pitot tube should be operating, anytime the temperature is at least within 5?f of freezing. Without a pitot heater, I would never fly into forecasted precip where the temperature is 40?f or lower.
JMO.
 
Know your, and your ships limitations

Like other things, opinions are worth just what you pay for them.
I don?t have a heated pitot and have flown all over the country for years IFR in IMC safely and comfortably for years. Like ALL other things we do in airplanes, you must recognize your, and your planes limits.
If in IMC watch temps and forecasts.
Smart? Safe?
Comfortable? It is for me, maybe not for you. You have to decide.
 
I'm with Jerry. No pitot heat and lots of IFR hours all over the country. I do stay far away from icing conditions, but I would do that even with a heated pitot.
 
Wow

Such a simple thing...and people are comfortable flying without it...in IFR.

It is one of those things that is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it...
 
If you're still in the building phase, then yes, I would install a pitot heat. Is it required? No. But, tell me a time that you would regret having a pitot heat? Tell me a time that you would be glad that you had a pitot heat?

Point being, you'll only ever wish that you had pitot heat, not that you didn't. Of course nobody plans to fly their RV in known icing, but if you happen to stumble across it, it would be nice if the ice on the airframe was your only problem, and not add a second problem of an airspeed indicator issue.
 
Break the chain

Some accidents are a series of small things that add up to a bad outcome. Break the chain anywhere, and there is a safe outcome.
I would put pitot heat in and break the chain.
In fact, I tend to fly with it always on anyways. Break the chain.
 
Might be a dumb question, but couldn?t find in the forums. Finishing the fuselage on an RV-12iS. Will be certified as an EAB for engine purposes and am installing an AFS 5600 in the panel. I intend on putting a NAV radio in it to use as an IFR trainer to obtain my next certification. I will have a 50 amp alternator so I will have power to drive the pitot if necessary. Question is do I need a heated Pitot to certify the static/pitot system for IFR use? I don?t intend on flying in actual IMC conditions and the only reason I would put a heated pitot in the plane is for flight Trainning purposes. Thanks in advance.

Do you need a heated pitot tube? Well what happens if your pitot tube freezes up when you're flying an instrument approach in minimums with a wind? I would never have time to get out my iPad or iPhone and then the battery would be dead or I wouldn't get a signal. Good for you to fly without a heated pitot. Nothing like saving a couple of hundred bucks when your granddaughter is in the airplane with you.
 
About 20 years ago I was flying IFR from PHX to SAF in November. Went into IMC and my airspeed indication went to zero. Sure was nice to flip on pitot heat and get it back in 10 seconds. I?ve been flying 35 years and that is the only time I needed it, but when you need it, you need it.
 
E-AB Pitot

I have a heated pitot (GAP 26) in the left wing on my RV-12, which is fully IFR capable. If you have any thought to fly in any semblance of IMC, then you should consider a heated pitot. I have encountered trace icing and was thankful for the protection provided.

The cost is insignificant, especially when compared to the safety measure it provides against ice blockage. Although it is not a required component, I recommend having one for any IFR capable aircraft.
 
I?m naive when it comes to IFR? A year ago I flew my 12 on a three-leg flight plan under the hood with no outside visual reference. I used Dynon D180, Garmin 296, and mini iPad running ForeFlight. I do not have autopilot, so flying was done by hand, and I must say it was quite a chore. Convection during the heat of the day made for a wrestling match in such a light airplane.

So, a couple of questions? when I see RV-12 equipped for IFR that must also include autopilot to help fly straight/level? I often hear such-n-such airplane is good IFR platform ? is RV-12 considered good for IFR or better used only for IFR training?

Just curious? seems like heated pitot would be least of my problems.
 
I?m naive when it comes to IFR? A year ago I flew my 12 on a three-leg flight plan under the hood with no outside visual reference. I used Dynon D180, Garmin 296, and mini iPad running ForeFlight. I do not have autopilot, so flying was done by hand, and I must say it was quite a chore. Convection during the heat of the day made for a wrestling match in such a light airplane.

So, a couple of questions? when I see RV-12 equipped for IFR that must also include autopilot to help fly straight/level? I often hear such-n-such airplane is good IFR platform ? is RV-12 considered good for IFR or better used only for IFR training?

Just curious? seems like heated pitot would be least of my problems.

?Equipped for IFR? might mean the legal minimums, no autopilot. An autopilot should never be necessary for a short flight - it?s function is to relieve fatigue and keep you sharp.
IMHO no RV is a ?great? ifr platform. They?re too much fun to fly vfr, which means they?re nimble and not overly stable. A good ifr platform is very stable to the point of being a boring, truck like handling vfr.
 
RV-12iS as a trainer

I very much appreciate everyones input on this. To answer specific questions, I do not see the RV-12 as an IFR airplane, but is a low cost per hour flier that seems perfect for building time behind the stick. As I have a private pilots license, seems like a good time builder for additional certificates. Although not required, based on the input from this post, I am planning on using a heated pitot system. Yes, the plane will have an autopilot. I wish I would have built the RV-12 10 years ago and used it to get my pilots license.
 
?Equipped for IFR? might mean the legal minimums, no autopilot. An autopilot should never be necessary for a short flight - it?s function is to relieve fatigue and keep you sharp.
IMHO no RV is a ?great? ifr platform. They?re too much fun to fly vfr, which means they?re nimble and not overly stable. A good ifr platform is very stable to the point of being a boring, truck like handling vfr.

While I agree with Bob that an autopilot does help relieve fatigue and keep you sharp, I'm in the Richard Collins school of thinking in that you should always have two pilots if your are flying IFR, which means that if you're the only human pilot in the airplane while flying, the autopilot is the second one. Piper J3 states that task of flying IFR by yourself well - that "it was quite a chore". Anyone who's flown for 3+ hours in IMC knows how drained you are both mentally and physically at the end of that flight.

I use the AP for aviating, which gives me the time to navigate and communicate, which are key components of IFR flying. See How safe is Single Pilot IFR?. My personal limit is that I won't fly IFR without a properly working AP. I also believe RV's make good IFR platforms; and while an RV-12 doesn't come anywhere the "sitting on the couch" stability of my old Baron, IMO they are stable - which I qualify as able to hold a heading and altitude with minor inputs. However, they are very responsive and reactive - we should discuss separately.

The OP asks about a 12 having a heated probe, and I agree that it should have one if the intention is IFR flight "into IMC". If you can clearly state that the aircraft will only be used for IFR flight training in VMC conditions, then there's no need for the probe, but if you truly expect to fly the aircraft IFR with idea that you will need to navigate in IMC for a cross-country flight, then you should have a heated probe.
 
To answer specific questions, I do not see the RV-12 as an IFR airplane

I respectfully disagree. I ran a report on my logbook and find that I have 113 instrument approaches along with 23.1 hours of actual instrument conditions out of 412.3 hours PIC in my RV-12 over that last 22 months. Most of those approaches were done simply descending through a 2000' tops/1000' base marine layer, but many of them came at the end of a 2-3 hour flight performed IFR, with several done to minimums at night, and some with rain added for fun.

It's my experience that the RV-12 is a very capable IFR aircraft - when properly equipped.
 
I respectfully disagree. I ran a report on my logbook and find that I have 113 instrument approaches along with 23.1 hours of actual instrument conditions out of 412.3 hours PIC in my RV-12 over that last 22 months. Most of those approaches were done simply descending through a 2000' tops/1000' base marine layer, but many of them came at the end of a 2-3 hour flight performed IFR, with several done to minimums at night, and some with rain added for fun.

It's my experience that the RV-12 is a very capable IFR aircraft - when properly equipped.

Thank you for taking the time to comment. As I am also putting a ULPower 350iS on the 12, I am glad to get your input. Based on the thread, "properly equipped" means 1) Heated Pitot 2) Autopilot and 3) TSO'd navigation source with a 4) sign off on the pitot static system.

Given the GPS interface on the AFS5600 is WAAS resolution, I was thinking about installing a VAL NAV 2KR for VOR/ILS/GS. I realize a Garmin GPS 175 would suffice, but given the EFIS GPS is fine, adding the NAV radio is probably $2k vs $5k. Seems strange to add the GPS 175 and not get any additional functionality other than "I have a TSO'd nav source". Opinions? Might be that the Val NAV2KR is not TSO'd,, I have not started down that research thread yet.
 
While pitot heat is nice, it is not as necessary today as it was 20-30 years ago because today we have GPS which will provide a "ball park" airspeed (and altitude) even if the pitot is iced over. Prior to GPS you were out of luck!

Jim Butcher
 
While pitot heat is nice, it is not as necessary today as it was 20-30 years ago because today we have GPS which will provide a "ball park" airspeed (and altitude) even if the pitot is iced over. Prior to GPS you were out of luck!

Jim Butcher

How accurate is a WAAS enabled Dynon GPS-2020 receiver these days, that is ADSB Extended Squitter Out Compliant with the 261 XSPNDER system? It's my understanding that it updates your location 5x per second.
 
There are a lot of comments above that say "I've never needed pitot heat", but not one that says you should NOT build it in.

If you are in the middle of building and running a wire to provide heat is relatively simple (as opposed to trying to retrofit wires through a finished wing), I can't think of a reason not to do it.

I'm building a -10 that I plan to have IFR capable (I am instrument rated already). While I hope I never get into icing conditions in IMC, I am absolutely including pitot heat in the event that I do get into some bad stuff. The complexity and weight of a couple of extra wires and a switch are minimal.
 
While pitot heat is nice, it is not as necessary today as it was 20-30 years ago because today we have GPS which will provide a "ball park" airspeed (and altitude) even if the pitot is iced over. Prior to GPS you were out of luck!

Jim Butcher

Every builder needs to carefully consider their choices in some detail. For example, you can still buy used EFIS units that require pitot data to reach an attitude solution.
As to the other question: no TSO is required for a VOR/ILS.
OTOH, a TSO or other approval is required for a gps used under IFR. So while there are a lot of high accuracy gps boxes out there, they are not legal as the primary nav source under ifr without the approval. Most don?t have databases, either.
 
My definition of a good IFR airplane is one that is stable so you can spend 10 or 15 seconds looking at a chart and when you look up everything still looks good on the AI. My Cherokee is like that and very stable. The RV-12 has an empty weight half of the Cherokee so it gets pushed around more and seems a little less hands off stable. I would recommend the AP if you are serious about flying the RV-12 in IMC.
 
A couple comments

Thank you for taking the time to comment. As I am also putting a ULPower 350iS on the 12, I am glad to get your input. Based on the thread, "properly equipped" means 1) Heated Pitot 2) Autopilot and 3) TSO'd navigation source with a 4) sign off on the pitot static system.

You're welcome. I agree with having a heated pitot, AP and pitot/static check, 91.411, and then there is also a separate check for the transponder, 91.413 that is required. I would also include the items listed in 91.205(c) for night flying, which I do often. And then there is everything by 91.205(d) that will be required by operating limits as well. All of that, meets my definition of "properly equipped".

I personally have a GTN625 , which is TSO'd under C146, which is the WAAS TSO; it's a fine unit and I recommend it. I see Van's is now offering a similar avionics package for IFR training. However, you can fly IFR with a GPS TSO'd under C129 (non-WAAS) with some restrictions. You cannot fly IFR with a non-TSO'd GPS using that as your primary means of navigation - but that is way off topic and already discussed at length in other threads.

Prior to entering any form of precipitation and OAT is <=45ºF, I turn on my pitot heat. Thermal layers can change quickly in IMC and ice may form, so I recommend having the heated probe, and use it.

A pro-tip for Garmin G3X users is that the regulated GAP 26 probe has a discrete output that can be configured to alert you when OAT is <45º and your probe temp is less than 77ºF and/or your power to the probe is off; a very nice feature.

My definition of a good IFR airplane is one that is stable so you can spend 10 or 15 seconds looking at a chart and when you look up everything still looks good on the AI. My Cherokee is like that and very stable. The RV-12 has an empty weight half of the Cherokee so it gets pushed around more and seems a little less hands off stable. I would recommend the AP if you are serious about flying the RV-12 in IMC.

Getting "pushed around" isn't just about gross weight, but includes wing surface area for wing loading determination - the higher the wing loading, the less the plane will be affected by thermal activity. Depending on which Cherokee you have, the wing loading at gross weight has about 13.4 pounds per square foot (2150lbs / 160 sqft), whereas the E-LSA RV-12 has 1320 pounds and 127 sqft for 10.4 lbs/sqft. Three pounds is a difference, but not so much that I would say it gets pushed around noticeably more than my brother's warrior, that I've flown on the same day, in the same conditions. For comparison a B58 Baron is 27 lbs/sqft, which is significantly different, or a 747 which has about 133 lbs/sqft. When trimmed out, an RV-12 is quite stable and an excellent IFR training platform, IMHO, although I wholeheartedly agree with having an AP - not for stability, but for flying IFR single pilot.

P.S. Congrats R7237 on the UL350iS install. I'm happy to share my lessons learned or just compare notes if you want.

EDIT: I just remembered, my 12 has fuel out in the wings, not in the baggage, which may contribute to its stability more so than fuel at the centerline.
 
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About 20 years ago I was flying IFR from PHX to SAF in November. Went into IMC and my airspeed indication went to zero. Sure was nice to flip on pitot heat and get it back in 10 seconds. I’ve been flying 35 years and that is the only time I needed it, but when you need it, you need it.
Glad it worked out for you, but that's way too late to be turning it on.
That pitot heater should have been turned on well before the actual icing event. Why?
Because the pitot heater is not an "ice-removal device." It is however, an "anti-icing device." That means it prevents ice from forming, instead of removing icing which is already there. If icing is severe enough, there are circumstances where the ice accumulation could far exceed the capabilities of the pitot heater to remove the ice. Therefore, prevention is far superior than removing with this piece of equipment.
Unless it is turned on during taxi-out for an anticipated IFR flight (observing operating limits) . . . a good rule of thumb is to make sure it is on, when encountering visible moisture with an OAT less than +50ºf or +5ºc.
Had that rule of thumb been followed, the indicated airspeed would probably not have gone to zero.
 
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