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Flaps down on shutdown?

jcarne

Well Known Member
Patron
I'm preparing my POH and checklists right now and I have noticed a lot of template POHs call for flaps down just before shutting the engine down. No aircraft I currently fly does this. What is the reasoning? The only one I can think of is so a passenger isn't tempted to use it as a step. Thanks!
 
Correct. And it makes entering the aircraft much easier. (Not so important for the taildraggers, but it makes a difference for the 'A' models...
 
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Trip Point Elimination

From experience I've found having the flaps down - A model 9 - eliminates catching the shoe toe on the flap trailing edge.
With flaps down it is noticeably easier, and more comfortable getting in and out of the aircraft.
 
Definitely flaps down!

Not only due to the accidental "use as step" risk.
You might actually trip over/catch the trailing edge when stepping from the step weldment to the fortified area on the wing, especially lesser experienced/less frequent passengers.
And when loading / unloading bags, the flaps in up position would be living much more dangerously, too.
 
Flaps

However comma, when you are on cross country and have gotten a clearance after loading wife and baggage, it is a terrible time to find out that your flaps will not come up.

Wonder how I learned this?

Therefore, after I land my RV, flaps come up so I know I can depart

If needed for a special needs unload, I raise them before leaving my plane
 
I used to leave the flaps up at times when parked outside, it looked better and people didn't then ask Why are the flaps down, used to hear that a lot years ago. Then one day I went the plane and there were several small shoe prints on the wings and flaps. No damage but have never parked with flaps up since. sometimes Parents with small children don't have a clue
 
Flaps down for me as I exit the runway, sort of a roll out after landing check. In the beginning I forget often and would remember after the engine was off and I went to get out. I understand the fear of them not coming up, but I'd rather fix them prior to takeoff and I consider the odds of damage greater. Though I did have them not come up once, it was a wiring issue; I had been in there the night prior and must have hit the wires. Happy to find it before takeoff.
 
In the RV-9A, I park with half flaps. With full flaps, it's easy to kick the trailing edge. You don't HAVE to kick it if you're careful, but... and your passengers...
 
I put mine up on departing the runway to avoid FOD. I might put them down if around non-RV people, if that ever happens.
 
I deploy them right before engine shut down and retract them right after engine start. I don't taxi to or from the runway with them down as there is too much chance of having the prop or tires flip gravel into them. Also if during taxi a dust devil or jet blast might hit the airplane I want as little lift on the wing as possible.
 
Flaps up for me. No FOD, reduced wind influence when tied down, aligns with SOP for almost every other airplane in existence.

I only fly taildraggers, I'm healthy enough to be able to lift my feet enough to clear the TE, but the best reason of all - it irritates the Vans horde to raise them!
 
It's part of my checklist

It's on my checklist for shutdown.
Screen Shot 2020-08-07 at 20.02.43.png
 
I don't like them down when I'm on the ground and engine running (short-field TO is an exception). Too much chance of picking something up. I raise them just before engine start. If they ever don't come up, well, the engine hasn't started so no biggie. Then up again immediately after landing (prevents an accidental second landing if the speed was too high) and down again after the engine is off.
 
Flaps up for me. No FOD, reduced wind influence when tied down, aligns with SOP for almost every other airplane in existence.

I only fly taildraggers, I'm healthy enough to be able to lift my feet enough to clear the TE, but the best reason of all - it irritates the Vans horde to raise them!

Same here. I like lifting them during roll out to keep the nose up longer. See no need to put them down again. If I didn't trust a passenger enough not to step on them, they wouldn't be invited in for the ride.

Larry
 
Wow the responses here have been great everyone! My thoughts (which were largely confirmed by you guys) is that flaps down to avoid exit/entry damage. I also have the view that I do not want them down while the aircraft is just sitting there tied down for wind reasons. Especially considering I live in one of the windiest states in the country.

With the planes I fly now I always put the flaps down when I get to the aircraft for preflight to check hinges and connections, this would be no different with the RV.

Looks like I might get a few more cycles on flaps but I'm okay with that to avoid someone stepping on them.
 
If you leave your flaps down (at least on the six) try this first.....

With the flaps full down, give them a firm push like as if your leg pressed against the flap as you were admiring the panel.
Flaps not properly adjusted will pop out from under the wing skin, and if left that way, will be damaged by retracting the electric flaps.
With manual flaps, you can feel the bind and avoid any damage.
 
If you leave your flaps down (at least on the six) try this first.....
With the flaps full down, give them a firm push like as if your leg pressed against the flap as you were admiring the panel.
Flaps not properly adjusted will pop out from under the wing skin, and if left that way, will be damaged by retracting the electric flaps.
With manual flaps, you can feel the bind and avoid any damage.

When I built my -6, I modified the "full-down" notch to allow only 38° of travel to avoid this very thing.
 
It has always been flaps up for us.

I just figure anyone who leaves them up is a new RV pilot. I don't even want the chance of someone stepping on them!

With more than just a hand full of RV hours, I've never accidentally stepped on a flap.
 
Some BIG kids (40 year olds...) can't read or understand NO STEP decals either...

To a non flying passenger who is dis mounting, reading NO STEP up side down, can appear or be confused to read as STEP ON. A different text or symbol might save a few flaps.
 
Another +1. Lots of theoretical justifications, but number of cycles is a sure fact.

Hi Dan,

It's not clear to me how this would save cycles. (Reducing flap cycles and the risk of damage while taxiing with the flaps down are the key issues for me.)

I deploy (fully) the flaps on my -4 while landing and retract them during roll-out. They stay retracted until the landing phase of the next flight, so one cycle per flight.

If you leave them down after landing (and are ok with taxing while they are down), I would still expect they would be retracted (at least mostly) before the next take-off. Either way, it's one cycle per flight.

Perhaps we are both on the same side of the fence on this one, but it's hard to get below one cycle per flight if you use the flaps at all.

Regards,

Dean
 
Yep, I don't get the cycles thing either... Flaps down to land, retract as I exit the runway, they stay up until the next landing... That's one cycle per flight unless my math is wrong.
 
Like a P-51

Didja ever notice that when a P-51 is parked, the flaps and inboard gear doors are down? There’s no hydraulic pressure to hold them up when the engine isn't running. So whenever we park our RV-6, we leave the flaps down so it looks like a P-51. Fools everybody. No, really. Well, really it's to keep people from stepping on them, same as everybody else. Little kids can’t read and not all adults understand what “NO STEP” means on an airplane. Some old British airplanes said “NO TO BE WALKED ON.” Descriptive but kind of long. I’ve thought about making up a graphic of a barefoot silhouette footprint with the international red circle and diagonal slash over it. One of these days....
 
Landing and shut down check lists:
Up after exiting runway
Down before disembarking

Engine start check list:
Up before starting

Hangared so no wind concern.
 
Going on memory, sketchy at best - OSHKOSH unofficial visual survey would be 80% down, 20% up.
What's your survey tally?
 
OSHKOSH unofficial visual survey would be 80% down, 20% up.
This RV-6A owner may have skewed the Oshkosh survey, since I raise my flaps if tied down outside and high winds are possible. High winds are actually probable during the week of Airventure. Don't like the RV sitting there in short field takeoff configuration when the winds come up. Flaps are raised after unpacking the airplane in this case.

Otherwise, the flaps come up (or to short/soft field takeoff position) before engine start, and stay down after landing unless taxiing on gravel. This facilitates ingress and egress, and minimises damage to the flaps.

Pilots of conventional gear RV's have good reason to retract flaps after landing and leave them there.

Cheers, David
RV-6A KBTF
 
My NO STEP placard😀

Here’s what my placard looks like!
 

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Yeh, my highly skewered survey would be based on RVs parked in HBD & HBC facing east (most nasty weather I've experienced there came out of the west), & reflected planes parked, not starting or moving.

Next question for tied down planes, Elevators locked neutral, down, or up (stick tied back)? Again considering facing east & weather ripping in from the west!
 
One more reason for flaps up

...I dont want the tower thinking I'm a hijack in progress because I'm "giving the sign" and they roll the anti terror squad! ;)
 
Like all these questions that actually vary based on how you fly and not just preference, if land on long paved runways really no reason to raise flaps on roll out to facilitate braking and/or reduce potential debris damage. Also if flying an A then really less chance of debris damage than tail dragger.

After touchdown I roll out and taxi with flaps down. I don’t retract flaps until master switch turned on to prior to engine start for the next flight.
 
There are good reasons for both ways.....

As a standard Van's Aircraft practice, all company demonstrators are always parked with the flaps down.

I have seen comments along the lines of "If it is someone I trust getting in my airplane, I trust them to not step on my flap" (or something similar).

That trust works........ until it doesn't.

At Van's, we have the experience of many thousands of people climbing in and out of our demonstrators each year. At events like OSH, we can top that in a week.

On a regular basis, after just having had a persons full attention and explaining to them where they can and can't step or grab, there are a certain percentage of people that 5 seconds later will step or grab exactly where you just told them not to.

So for us, double the wear and tear on a flap motor is a small price to pay compared to the effort involved in repairing and painting a damaged flap (best case.... worse case being an unairworthy airplane far from home).

It is why we affectionately refer to our aircraft as "Adult playground equipment", and it is also the reason that after a few years they tend to show signs of the use and abuse they get.

This is not a complaint, it is just part of the business. Often times when people are encountering our airplanes (maybe an RV for the very first time) they can be a bit excited, which could be another factor.
 
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On a regular basis, after just having had a persons full attention and explaining to them where they can and can't step or grab, there are a certain percentage of people that 5 seconds later will step or grab exactly where you just told them not to.

For my inexperienced passengers, that number is 73%. It is amazing. "I just told you NOT to step on the flap and I also pointed to and touched the canopy and instructed you NOT to grab it as a handhold."
 
Like all these questions that actually vary based on how you fly and not just preference, if land on long paved runways really no reason to raise flaps on roll out to facilitate braking and/or reduce potential debris damage. Also if flying an A then really less chance of debris damage than tail dragger.

After touchdown I roll out and taxi with flaps down. I don’t retract flaps until master switch turned on to prior to engine start for the next flight.

You might want to participate in a FOD walk from time to time. It's amazing what our certificated brethren leave behind them on the runway ... :p

And now we have a new topic for when the primer discussion loses steam. :D
 
Next question for tied down planes, Elevators locked neutral, down, or up (stick tied back)?

Elevators locked neutral for my RV. Again, don't want to be in short field takeoff configuration(stick full back). Have seen tents plastered against fences in all compass directions at Oshkosh.

Cheers, David
RV-6A KBTF
 
Humans

For my inexperienced passengers, that number is 73%. It is amazing. "I just told you NOT to step on the flap and I also pointed to and touched the canopy and instructed you NOT to grab it as a handhold."
Sounds like you are not used to dealing with humans! :D I just tell them where they can step, and where they can hold.
 
Sounds like you are not used to dealing with humans! :D I just tell them where they can step, and where they can hold.

That's the other part of the brief. "Step on the black, NOT the flap." "Grab the seatback, or the roll bar center bar, NOT the canopy."

Clearly, it is a lot to comprehend ;-)

People have no idea how fragile airplanes are if mistreated.
 
Yep, I don't get the cycles thing either... Flaps down to land, retract as I exit the runway, they stay up until the next landing... That's one cycle per flight unless my math is wrong.

Dean, Mike, that case is one cycle, no debate. Two cycles would be down to land, up after landing, down to park/load, then up for taxi/takeoff.

No way I'm loading with the flaps up. I'm old. All my friends are old. Leaping over the flap is for kids. They go down on final and stay there until the next flight.

Didja ever notice that when a P-51 is parked, the flaps and inboard gear doors are down? There’s no hydraulic pressure to hold them up when the engine isn't running. So whenever we park our RV-6, we leave the flaps down so it looks like a P-51. Fools everybody.

Best answer yet!
 
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Ok, it's an age thing...

In that case I reserve the right to change my mind if/when I get as old as Dan. ;)
 
This is my practice....

Flaps up before start; Flaps one notch before takeoff; Flaps up after obstacle clearance; Flaps down on approach; Flaps up after touchdown; Flaps down after engine shutdown.

Never a flap failure in the RV in over 27 years.
 
Ya I'm not seeing the flap cycle issue as a real issue. We fly some expensive machines, if I have to replace a flap motor at some point to avoid someone stepping on a flap it's not going to break my heart. On the other hand, if I have to replace a flap that is already painted... well that one will make me mad. :)
 
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