RV-8A AOA Utility

As a former Navy carrier guy, I thought installing an AOA (AFS Pro) system on my -8A would be really cool. However, after 130+ hours I stil find that I never use it. The plane trims up solid as a rock at 70 KIAS on final, stalls clean at 52 and dirty at 49 - sraight ahead. During acro I rely on pre-stall nibble to tell me not to pull harder.

Have any of you more experienced RV'rs found more AOA utility?

I have lots of AOA time from the USAF, where I almost exclusively used it as my primary instrument on final. In my 60+ hours in the RV-8 I find I use it less than I should, but that is a matter of training. I plan to use it as the primary final instrument with airspeed as the backup as I get more hours in the plane.

Other areas where I find it useful:

1. Max angle climb. Immediately after lift off I rotate to "2 green bars" on the Dynon system, and hold that until the airpeed is 75 KIAS (1/2 flaps) I then hold airpeed after that.

2. Like you do, I use stick burble over the top on loops and immelmans, but I have found that the stall warning aspect has come in handy more than once.

I am still trying to work up a workable system for using it during hard turns.

I wish the Dynon tone system was louder, as I refer it to the classic "Stall, Stall" voice. However, I find that I can't hear the tone well enough during hard maneuvering.

-John

pvalovich said:

As a former Navy carrier guy, I thought installing an AOA (AFS Pro) system on my -8A would be really cool. However, after 130+ hours I stil find that I never use it. The plane trims up solid as a rock at 70 KIAS on final, stalls clean at 52 and dirty at 49 - sraight ahead. During acro I rely on pre-stall nibble to tell me not to pull harder.

Have any of you more experienced RV'rs found more AOA utility?

Click to expand...

I have the pro AOA system in my RV6. I found I did not use it initially but the more hours I get in the aircraft the more I reference it. I have made it a habit to always cross check the AOA to the airspeed. It is nice when heavy in that it gives me a quick reference to bump my speed up a bit. The Pro system also gives a nice warning in the landing flare. I know I am right where I want to be if I get the "ANGLE ANGLE PUSH" when I am a few inches above the runway. Not a factor however on a nose gear aircraft.

George

pvalovich said:

As a former Navy carrier guy, I thought installing an AOA (AFS Pro) system on my -8A would be really cool. However, after 130+ hours I stil find that I never use it. The plane trims up solid as a rock at 70 KIAS on final, stalls clean at 52 and dirty at 49 - sraight ahead. During acro I rely on pre-stall nibble to tell me not to pull harder.

Have any of you more experienced RV'rs found more AOA utility?

Click to expand...

The RV-8 is an honest airframe that "Talks" to you if you are listening. As you have learned, AOA is really not needed.

When I switched for steam gauges to the Garmin G3X system, I found myself flying the aircraft, and then referencing the instruments, instead of the other way around. I had switched to knots for MPH, and the display was in EFIS format instead of the familiar round dials. My eyes had a problem "Locking" on to what I wanted to look at. So I simply flew the Doll by feel, and then looked to see what the display said. After a few hours, I have re-referenced my brain to all the new numbers. Still during the first few flights, the Doll talked to me and I listened. Flying the pattern with the new display and in Knots instead of MPH was a non event.

IMHO AOA is not necessary.

I don't qualify as one of the more experienced around here, but with a bit over 300 hours on my 8a I rely on my AOA indicator so much that I have to stop and think about what my actual approach speeds are. For landing I use my AOA exclusively unless I am specifically practicing doing without it.

I don't think the AOA warning in my headset prior to the burble hurts anything either. I like to think I'm good enough to not need it, but I don't see a down side to having the stall warning.

As an Aero Engineer and Flight Test guy, I'd like to tell everyone just how important an AOA indicator is to flying precisely, staying on the bug, etc. In some of the stuff I have flown, AOA is the ONLY thing you can refer to at certain times (vitally important during some phases of atmospheric re-entry for instance). But.....I've had the GRT AOA in my -8 for a few years, and I've flown a number of RV's with it - and it simply doesn't get into my "scan". I think the problem is, I was spoiled by learning to fly in Cubs almost 40 years ago, and not having it through so many years of flying. Like Danny says, the -8 is very honest (as are all the RV's I've flown), and I tend to fly them by feel.

Jets and supersonic aircraft are a completely different world - you have to fly them by the numbers. And if you are new to this flying thing, AOA can be the cat's meow if you start using it from the very beginning. And I won't say anything bad about ANYONE that is using it consistently and getting good results - because it works!

But I simply can't seem to retrain my old brain to use it in light aircraft....still trying though - I like to encourage the development o fgood tools!

Paul

Interesting discussion. I have never flown in a plane with one, but am putting one on my RV12 mostly for the fun of it, for my own education about them.

If we're talking about keeping the proper AOA on base and final, depending on only one system totally is not the best technique, IMO. The more info streams you have, the better off you are when something fails. Use everything: AOA, airspeed and "feel".

The issue seems to be what is the primary indicator. My guess is that most will use airspeed as primary with AOA and feel as a backup. However, that is not the optimum technique if one has reliable AOA measurement. IMO, the best way to do it is to slow to a predetermined airspeed on base and check the AOA for accuracy. Once it is determined to be accurate make it primary and continue to cross check airpeed (and feel) through the final turn, down final, and into the flare.

Why base (as opposed to final)? It has been my experience that the place where you need AOA the most is in the turn to final. That's where stall airspeed varies widely, depending on angle of bank, pitch rate change, etc. We all tell yourselves (or we should) that we will not try and save an overshoot to final, but we're probably all are guilty of doing just that. And the base to final turn in an overhead pattern is basically an overshoot waiting to happen. That's where the AOA indicator is your friend.

-John

If my AOA indexer were wired to my Dynon, I'd probably refer to it more than I do. I find it unnecessary to take my eyes off the runway to glance at the AOA indicator on my EFIS when the airplane pretty much tells me what it's doing, as Danny said.

In fact, the last time I flew the pattern a few times, I deliberately did NOT look at my EFIS until I turned final -- just to see if I was really "feeling" the plane accurately. Just by feel and the sound of the engine, I was within a knot of my normal approach speed of 70 kts. When I flared, I glanced again and saw 64 knots, pretty much the speed at which I normally land.

It was reassuring that I AM actually getting to know my plane. However, realizing that as flight conditions and CG change so do the stall parameters, I find that I refer to the AOA more when heavily loaded or carrying a passenger. I just haven't seen any surprises yet, except that I'm generally a bit faster than ideal when loaded to the gills.

Ironflight said:

... AOA is the ONLY thing you can refer to at certain times (vitally important during some phases of atmospheric re-entry for instance ...

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Then, of course, we have those pesky atmospheric re-entry moments. OK, I'll admit it ... I DO rely on the AOA a whole lot more when I'm coming back through the ionosphere ...

Not enough info?

All of the AOA indicators I've seen are reserve lift needle gauges, or a few LED light bar segments. I have not flown behind any of these, but I wonder if they really provide enough information to be useful - seems you're either green, yellow or red.

I grew-up flying AOA with an indicator that provided AOA in 1 degree increments. Of course we all know that the wing always stalls at a specific AOA regardless of gross weight, density altitude, bank angle etc, but where I found AOA information useful was in getting TO my desired airspeed (take off or landing). Set for example 9 deg AOA and you know the airplane will settle at a particular airspeed every time. It takes a few seconds or more for the airplane to settle on a new airspeed with changes in pitch whereas the change in AOA is nearly instantaneous.

I'm not sure the current instruments are capable of providing this degree of information.... I'd like to hear what others think.

Tom

I'm thinking that an AOA would provide some valuable information, you would be hard pressed to find a situation where it was significantly "better" than flying an -8 by feel. It's a very honest, straight wing kite of an airplane - not an F-4.

I'd think AOA on an -8 is right up there with having a Mach number display on a Cub.

Toobuilder said:

I'd think AOA on an -8 is right up there with having a Mach number display on a Cub.

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Actually, AOA in an -8 is right up there with AOA in a Cub. Why is it that nobody preaches the benefit of AOA in Cub-like planes? An RV-8 has the exact same type of control feedback as a Cub. The -8 just happens to go faster. Maybe it's because some RV'ers are wannabe military pilots? I mean look at the paint schemes.

Danny King said:

When I switched for steam gauges to the Garmin G3X system, I found myself flying the aircraft, and then referencing the instruments, instead of the other way around. I had switched to knots for MPH [...] Flying the pattern with the new display and in Knots instead of MPH was a non event.

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You know you can change it to display airspeed in MPH if you prefer to see it that way, right?

mcb

Guy Prevost said:

I don't qualify as one of the more experienced around here....I rely on my AOA indicator so much that I have to stop and think about what my actual approach speeds are.....

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boomer said:

.....Why base (as opposed to final)? It has been my experience that the place where you need AOA the most is in the turn to final. That's where stall airspeed varies widely, depending on angle of bank, pitch rate change, etc....

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Similar to Guy's comment, I certainly don't feel I come close to qualifying as one of the more experienced pilots in VAF and don't even pretend to. During the build phase, I made the decision to install some sort of stall warning device. With no draggy vane protruding from the airframe and no sickly sounding reed generated stall warning like in my old Cessna 150, the AOA Sport had everything I was looking for. At that time, the only thing I knew about AOA was that Navy guys use it so it must be good.

Like Boomer so eloquently explained in his post, early on I got comfortable noting the AOA's bright LED array on that famous (infamous?) base to final turn. More than once and with plenty of margin, that AOA has prompted me to shallow the bank or lower the nose.

A lot of it has to do with how you calibrate the AOA. In my case, as long as the uppermost red LED continues to remain unlit, I know I am well above stall and won't be cause for adding my name to a grisly statistic that clearly snags too many pilots. When, by conscious effort that last red LED does illuminate, I know I am still good for another 3 or 4 knots. That is good information to know when I intend to land and stop short and at the very least, that AOA sure settles my concern when low and slow.

To those who dismiss the AOA as a wannabe frill, they would do well to remember that the two things a Piper Cub and an F4 Phantom commonly share is a critical stall speed and the capacity to kill its occupants caught unaware.

AOA Systems

The stall warning vanes and reeds we all found in training airplanes are the result of stall/spin accidents that occurred in light airplanes after WWII. These were typically the Cubs, T-Crafts, and Luscombes, etc. Great airplanes all of them, but accident statistics point out that they could surprise you when it was least expected, hence stall warning systems were required in later designs.

At the insistence of Jerry VanG (and a demo in his RV-8A), I installed an AOA Sport in my RV-8, but struggle to use it properly. It has a flaw that vanes and reeds do not have - you have to be looking at it to see where AOA is headed. The sight task is digital - you have to see it and interpret it. Sounds are generally perceived in analog - you are hard-wired to interpret a sound. The F-4 Phantom II had the best of both worlds, indexers and a terrific tone system. You could fly the airplane "on speed" and you knew exactly where you were in terms of maneverability. Before I headed off to Airbus, I had a guy begin development of a tone system that is fed off the AOA Sport, and would duplicate the F-4 system. It will be ideal for maneuvering and for pattern work. Used properly, it would help all of us to fly AOA precisely.

Going out on a limb here, those of you who enjoy going over the top and feeling the nibble, please do some 1g stalls in level flight and note the speed where the nibble begins and the speed where the airplane stalls. That's how close you are to the stall while inverted over the top. While the RV-8 has nice stall characteristics, my opinion is that if you are in the nibble over the top, you need to modify your technique to give yourself more margin to the stall. Works for me.

Terry Lutz said:

Going out on a limb here, those of you who enjoy going over the top and feeling the nibble, please do some 1g stalls in level flight and note the speed where the nibble begins and the speed where the airplane stalls. That's how close you are to the stall while inverted over the top. While the RV-8 has nice stall characteristics, my opinion is that if you are in the nibble over the top, you need to modify your technique to give yourself more margin to the stall. Works for me.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but this sounds a bit like an admonishment to folks who are well-aware of where the limits are, are able to fly them, and know that exceeding them (stall-wise) is a complete non-event, regardless of whether you're inverted or upright. Do you fly aerobatics? To extract maximum performance, sometimes you need to fly on the edge of stall. Part of the art of flying is getting a feel for exactly where the limits are AND actually using them. With experience, you can fly on the edge of stall with consistency. And nothing bad can happen if you do happen to stall. Immediately move the stick an inch forward and you're flying normally again. If someone might get into trouble by stalling, they should not be flying aerobatics to begin with. A prerequisite to doing acro is knowing your limitations and actually applying them for the altitude you have. As long as you have the ability to maintain control and/or have sufficient alittude to recover should you really hamfist things, that's all that matters.

I'm a huge fan of AOA and think every aircraft should have one, why... simple: IT SAVE LIVES

You may be Mr. Super pilot but not everyone is (I know I'm not), and someday someone else may own your RV, maybe it's his life you'll save.

It one of those things that sure can't hurt and may just save your bacon one day, so the question is why not have one?

I've flown the F-4, and learned to appreciate the aural AOA. I've also flown the F-15 that had an identical AOA system (albeit with a programmable tone for AOA as well as a G-limit tone). Like RV's, both of these jets depend on the pilot not to exceed aerodynamic limits. Our RV-4 also has reasonable aerodynamic cues and is easy to fly by reference to the conventional airspeed indicator.

However, a good AOA system is a boon in any airplane. A well "mech'd" system will let you know exactly where L/Dmax is (sometimes refered to as ON SPEED). There isn't much sense operating at AOA higher than L/Dmax unless the intent is to work the back side of the power/induced drag curve (an RV-applicable example might be the final portion of an intentional short-field approach and landing). The ability to work the AOA between L/Dmax and stall is a valuable handling skill, but unless you're in an emergency dive recovery where altitude is a factor, best overall turn performance occurs at L/Dmax (so does best angle of climb and maximum endurance glide). L/Dmax in the mighty RV-4 coincides nicely with 1.4 Vs Van's recommends for approach speed.

As Paul said, much jet flying is "by the numbers," but for the purposes of landing or maneuvering flight it's still just a substitute or back-up for AOA. Wolfgang Langewiesche does a great job of explaining how to fly the wing in the classic "Stick and Rudder." At some point a long time ago, we became enamored with speed which is only a surrogate for AOA during takeoff, landing and maneuvering flight anyway. Even cruise is simply a function of power setting/fuel flow and the resultant groundspeed. For every "speed" you fly, there is a suitable AOA; but it's really a lot simpler than that. The reality is that if you're taking off, landing or max performining the airplane, you're either on speed, fast or slow. If you're cruising, you're at a specific power setting that produces a groundspeed/fuel flow combination.

The other really nice thing about AOA is that it's a great teaching/learning aid. It's interesting to watch a student or transitioning pilot ignore an aerodynamic cue (or drop the airspeed indicator out of the cross-check), but most of them respond readily to an aural AOA tone or easily visible display. The aural feature (or a well-placed display) allows them to do this "eyes out," i.e., not looking at the cockpit displays. Eventually, as they gain experience, they become better at inerpreting the aerodynamic cues, all the while AOA keeps 'em honest. Eventually, they may not even need the AOA provided cues (most of the time), but that's only because they've learned to judge AOA and breakdown in stability by aerodynamic feel.

We all make handling errors. AOA is just another arrow in the quiver. Is it necessary in an RV? No, but you could just as easily dispense with the airspeed indicator and utilize an AOA display in lieu of that. Would a slow tone or display prevent a stall/spin in the final turn? Don't know, but it probably wouldn't hurt...

Cheers,

Vac

One thing I'd add to my previous post is that in playing around with various AOA devices in the RV, the biggest problem I have seen is getting it into the pilots' field of view during maneuvering flight. GRT has a great display, right on the screen - but it is just not where you are looking during the base to final turn. I tried a remote head, mounted up on the glare shield, and even IT wasn't really where it caught my attention.

Aural clues would be far superior in these "fly-by-site" airplanes, and for this old guy, I'd just want a tone. I've flown AOA's that are constantly talking to me ("Angle! Angle! Push!"), and now I have an avionics suite that is constantly saying "Traffic! Traffic" or Obstacle, Pull Up, Pull Up!!!" At some point, we have too many voices, and you tune them out.

So I'd vote for an AOA "tone-only" on the next one I'd try.

And to make sure folks don't mis-understand, I think AOA is valuable, and is far better than a stall warning vane!

I sense that we are getting away from the OP's question in this thread which was essentially asking for a cost/benefit analysis of retrofitting an AOA system and we are instead discussing the overall merit of an AOA.

I think we're mostly in agreement that AOA is a superior method of indicating L/Dmax and stall, but does having a "better" indicator on an airplane as benign as an -8 justify the expense of the retrofit? It's like having a glass panel and Garmin 530 on a Day/VFR airplane. Sure, you get a lot more information out of that $50k instrument panel, but if all of your flying is with eyes out (as you should be day/VFR), was that money well spent? Some of you may remember the concept of "marginal utility" from their economics classes.

So to the OP - I'm sticking with the opinion that an RV-8 can be flown by feel to a very high degree of safety - an AOA is a luxury, not a requirement. Unless it can be installed for (nearly) free and without weight penalty, it does not "buy" its way onto the airplane as a cost/benefit problem.

AOA is not a requirement in any aircraft. It is however I think one of the biggest bang for the buck safety items you can install. It accomplishes several things at a modest cost. It gives you the best stall warning available. It also gives you a back up AS indicator. If your running a modern EFIS and have AOA installed in a isolated system you don't need another ASI.
The stall/spin accident has always been one of the largest killers in general aviation. I know most aircraft talk to a pilot and give many cues. Most of us would like to believe we will always hear the aircraft talking to us. The facts however support a quite different reality. Distractions and other things occur that can cause even the most experienced pilots to miss critical warnings. Almost every accident is a chain of events. AOA is a great tool to break that chain. Yes you might be the pilot who can fly with 100 percent precision and feel every subtle cue the airframe gives off. I am certainly not that pilot.

Consider a pilot flying his RV8. He is taking a cross country flight with a heavy friend in the back seat and lots of bags. He is near max gross weight where he has rarely flown the aircraft. Coming into the pattern his radio is acting up and he is try to isolate the static. There is moderate turbulence below 2000 feet. Turning base he is unaware there is a 15 knot decreasing performance shear at 500 feet. Another pilot who he did not hear on the radio is flying a non standard right hand pattern into the field. As he is rolling out on final he spots the other aircraft and tries to go around rolling into a steeper bank angle and pitching up as the shear impacts the very heavy aircraft. Is this pilot who always recognized the cues to a stall going to pick them up in this situation. Is he going to pick them out while focusing on the other aircraft with the airframe in moderate turbulence at a weight he does not normally fly at?
I know all that sounds like too many events in one approach but as a trained accident investigator it mirrors so many accidents. There is always a unlikely confluence of events. The above is actually from memory of a accident we studied many years ago.
This thread kind of reminds me of TCAS for part 121 aircraft when it first came out. Many senior captains did not believe in it. I flew with one captain he would not even turn it on. He had lots of reasons why. 5 years later I flew with that same captain. He stuck out in my mind because he had refused to turn on the TCAS. We picked up a aicraft in DFW where the TCAS system was on maintenance carry over as being inop. It was legal to fly without it for a certain number of days before it had to be repaired. The same captain who once refused to turn it on now refused to take the aircraft even though it was legal with it broken. I asked him about his change of heart and he replied "I may be dumb but I am trainable".
AOA is simply another tool like TCAS or TIS. Its a great tool to have and might just one day be the one thing that breaks the link in a chain of events leading to a accident. Its also a excellent training aide. You certainly don't need it and the majority of aircraft have flown without it since 1903. For the price however I think its a excellent cost benefit item to have in your aircraft.

George

pvalovich said:

As a former Navy carrier guy, I thought installing an AOA (AFS Pro) system on my -8A would be really cool. However, after 130+ hours I stil find that I never use it.

Have any of you more experienced RV'rs found more AOA utility?

Click to expand...

I do not have any stall warning system yet having one "may" help reduce stall/spin fatalities. As mentioned in RVFlightSafety.org, a system that has an aural element may be better than just relying upon a visual indicator in cases where it may prevent a fatality.

sailvi767 said:

Consider a pilot flying his RV8. He is taking a cross country flight with a heavy friend in the back seat and lots of bags. He is near max gross weight where he has rarely flown the aircraft. Coming into the pattern his radio is acting up and he is try to isolate the static. There is moderate turbulence below 2000 feet. Turning base he is unaware there is a 15 knot decreasing performance shear at 500 feet. Another pilot who he did not hear on the radio is flying a non standard right hand pattern into the field. As he is rolling out on final he spots the other aircraft and tries to go around rolling into a steeper bank angle and pitching up as the shear impacts the very heavy aircraft. Is this pilot who always recognized the cues to a stall going to pick them up in this situation. Is he going to pick them out while focusing on the other aircraft with the airframe in moderate turbulence at a weight he does not normally fly at?

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At this point would he have actually picked out the (visual only) status of the little AOA indicator on the panel?

luddite42 said:

At this point would he have actually picked out the (visual only) status of the little AOA indicator on the panel?

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Nice try. I'd say he would have a reasonable expectation of picking out the (visual only) status of the little AOA indicator.

Rick6a said:

Nice try. I'd say he would have a reasonable expectation of picking out the (visual only) status of the little AOA indicator.

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I see a huge attitude indicator and a small AOA indicator.

Previous poster's scenario led up to the accident pilot maneuvering "while focusing on the other aircraft". I take that to mean his head was not on the panel, AOA or no AOA. All I'm saying is that if folks are distracted enough to miss the cues that the ASI, bank angle, stick pressure, airframe buffet, wind noise, etc. are making, how do we arrive at the idea that AOA will be the one thing they will finally take note of? Yes, it's one more tool that could help, and I have NO problem with that. I just disagree a bit about how strongly some feel that it's that likely to be the thing that breaks the accident chain. To see the AOA, don't you have to deliberately look at it? Aural indicator is another issue. If you deliberately look at it (before you stall, anyway), doesn't that mean that you have some concern with, and are actually thinking about what your AOA might be? Seems that part would be the missing link in the chain of most accidents, and if present, would likely cause the pilot to adjust his AOA with or without the actual visual AOA indicator.

I totally get how AOA can help fly precision approaches, but if we're talking about it being some sort of "dummy light" the pilot sees just before he snaps the plane into the ground on base-to-final, wouldn't a standard stall-warning horn found on every TC'd plane take care of this, only better, since it's aural?

luddite42 said:

At this point would he have actually picked out the (visual only) status of the little AOA indicator on the panel?

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No he would not. However the system should have a aural component. Mine would be screaming "Angle Angle Push". Without a aural component I agree that its not valuable in the above situation.
It could however have caused him to bump his speed a bit on the base leg by giving him cues as to how heavy the aircraft was when he did a normal crosscheck so he might have been carrying a few more knots. That speed bump might have made the difference. Normally a pilot would have bumped his approach speed for weight and conditions but again we all get distracted. The AOA crosscheck can be a good reminder.

Plenty of Vietnam era combat studies proves that humans have an amazing ability to tune out or otherwise ignore aural warnings - especially if those noises are competing for "bandwidth" in the brain of a pilot who is dealing with (seemingly) higher priority activity.

Heck, why would a pilot respond to "angle, angle push" any more than a gear warning horn?

sailvi767 said:

No he would not. However the system should have a aural component. Mine would be screaming "Angle Angle Push". Without a aural component I agree that its not valuable in the above situation.
It could however have caused him to bump his speed a bit on the base leg by giving him cues as to how heavy the aircraft was when he did a normal crosscheck so he might have been carrying a few more knots. That speed bump might have made the difference. Normally a pilot would have bumped his approach speed for weight and conditions but again we all get distracted. The AOA crosscheck can be a good reminder.

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One of these days,
in the not too distance future,
the AOA will push the stick for you as well...

Options?

I am installing a G3X dual sreen set-up. I was hoping that Garmin would add a derived AOA feature much like GRT did. I have yet to hear anything about this feature being added.
So if Garmin has no intent to provide a derived AOA, then my optins are Advanced, Dynon, or ???. I personally would prefer something that provides an audible warning. So that rules out the steam gauge versions. Does anybosy have a list of vendors for this type of device?

Thanks,
Brad
-8, panel wiring/fiberglass tips

Interesting

This has been an interesting dialogue. I have been on the fence about an AOA since I started building my -8. Now that I have it flying, I have for the most part dismissed the idea, but this discussion raises some great points.

As for audio, I would think it would be a fairly benign software code change to provide audio alerts for the AOAs that are integral to the EFIS (AFS, GRT, etc).

Right now all my spare change is paying for gas so I'll have to wait in any event.

Toobuilder said:

Plenty of Vietnam era combat studies proves that humans have an amazing ability to tune out or otherwise ignore aural warnings - especially if those noises are competing for "bandwidth" in the brain of a pilot who is dealing with (seemingly) higher priority activity.

Heck, why would a pilot respond to "angle, angle push" any more than a gear warning horn?

Click to expand...

As others have pointed out, the AOA is a very effective and beneficial tool. The fact that everyone may not use the tool well or effectively does not diminish from the merits of the tool.

I have over 1000 hours in high performance sailplanes, all equipped with audio variometers. For anyone not familiar with this technology, when you fly into rising air you get one tone that increases in pitch the faster the air rises. When you fly into sinking air you get a different tone that decreases in pitch the faster the air sinks. My experience flying with this type of audio input is that interpreting the information very quickly becomes second nature, even with competing racket from COM?s, CD players, etc. In no time you?re reacting to the audio input without consciously thinking about what it?s telling you. Even when thermalling I virtually never looked at the variometer gauge in the panel?the audio tells you everything you need to know. Once you have experience this you will be a believer!

I understand that Dynon?s AOA is capable of generating a variable audio tone. All other AOA systems should offer similar options. I have not flow the Dynon yet, but expect acclimating to their audio tone would be very similar to my sailplane experience. I would also plan to train for keying on the AOA tone during critical portions of flight, such as the landing pattern. It could be a life saver!

No system is foolproof, as pilots unfortunately continue to demonstrate. But let?s not make perfection the enemy of the good!

Time for me to chime in.

With near 5000 hrs TT I feel confident most of the time, and that can bite anyone in the butt. About a year ago I was in the -10 aproaching an unfamiliar airport at night. We (better half and I) had the airplane loaded, night, with crappy runway lights. I got distracted looking for the runway as we overflew. Suddenly I hear "angle, angle, push". Between the heavy (aft) loading, night environment, and other factors... I got distracted and tried my best to stall the airplane at 1000ft.


Long story short... When we built the airplane I thought it was a good idea to have AOA. After it saving my butt... I'll install it in my next airplane.

WhiskeyMike said:

As others have pointed out, the AOA is a very effective and beneficial tool. The fact that everyone may not use the tool well or effectively does not diminish from the merits of the tool...

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Agreed it is a useful tool, but it is not a panacea either. So the original question of "utility" is a very personal call. Some here are fans of the device and have incorporated it into their scan with great success. Others have it, but can't quite train themselves to use it. At another end of the spectrum is me... I have a full glass panel with all the toys and yet hardly even look at the airspeed while I'm in the pattern.

My argument is not against the technology - I'm a fan - it is merely to provide a reality check for those that would argue this device automatically makes things "safer" simply because it is better information. For the OP to gain "utility" from AOA, he would have to be safer with it than without - and I'm not sure anyone here has established this yet.

Toobuilder said:

For the OP to gain "utility" from AOA, he would have to be safer with it than without - and I'm not sure anyone here has established this yet.

Click to expand...

That would not be established until he entered a low altitude stall/spin. At that point it is too late...he and any passenger(s) would most likely be dead.

Paddles

Bottom line: if you don't scan AOA, how you gonna shag the OK3 and keep Paddles off your back? Meatball, Lineup, AOA...

Always in View, aural warning included.