10 yr old RV 10 kit - Should I buy It? Is it a good deal?

I have an opportunity to purchase a 10 year old RV 10 kit. It includes the Emp and the QB Fuselage and Wings. The empennage kit and tail cone have been built. Everything appears to be in good condition. I've looked but didn't read each safety release from Vans since 2010, so I don't know if there have been huge changes to the kits since then. Would a finishing kit from 2020 fit onto the 2010 QB fuselage? Will there be other issues with new parts not working on this 10 year old kit? Is $43,500 a good deal for this kit? (it saves me having to build the Emp & tail cone, and saves me 8-9 months waiting for a QB kit if I ordered it now from Vans). Assuming all the hardware, plans, etc are there, & assuming that all pieces are in good condition, is this a good deal (seems like it). I know he does not have much in the way of pics or documentation to prove that he (as an amateur builder) did the tail cone & Emp work ... but someone at Vans today told me that this happens often when someone sells a partially built kit & the purchaser who finishes the build doesn't have an issue proving the amateur 51% rule despite not having documentation from the 1st builder.

Other thoughts/warnings? Am I crazy? Should I just take the safe/slow route and buy from Vans?

Thx in advance for your advice - I really value it.

My thoughts:
1. Make sure you get a written , signed letter, from the original builder, stating that he (and/or other unpaid workers) did the work completed so far.
2. Carefully inspect any aluminum that still has blue vinyl on it. Corrosion sometimes starts under it.
3. You will miss the tail kit assembly. The instructions for that part are particularly detailed, to get new builders off to a good start.
4. If 1-3 are okay, I’d try to negotiate a somewhat lower price. IIRC $40K is about the original cost, in 2010.

Added: I have paperwork from 2008. At that time these kits were $38.5 K. There have been only a few SBs, none deal killers. However, I think this era will have the pink fiberglass cabin top. The new kits have the gray top, by most accounts, better out of the mold. Ditto for all the other fiberglass pieces, although some of them will come in the finishing kit, iirc. Note Vans has announced that they are going to go to punching holes to final size on the -10, as they do now for the -14. This can be a real time saver. I do not know when this will be fully implemented but could be used as a negotiating point.

Buying a second hand kit is a great course of action. You can get a good financial deal that way which also saves you some time. The RV-10 kit has not changed much at all over the years (other than the recent announcement about going to full sized punched holes), but that shouldn't be an issue as far along as this kit seems to be.

Get an experienced builder to help you inspect the kit. Check for corrosion on assemblies and also unassembled items. Check for completeness. Check for quality of work and conformance to plans.

And if you have found a nice kit, buy it. You'll come out ahead.

But take your time on the inspection. A few errors or bad rivets is not a problem, but if you find big picture workmanship problems, it's time to reconsider.

I bought my kit second hand, but it was from an Oshkosh award winning builder. Everything was exceptionally well built and documented in the plans. Still, I had to order little things like rivets and some hardware. Inevitably the ones that came with the kit got dumped into an organizer somewhere. Be sure to calculate some extra money for hardware that you will almost certainly need to buy.

It can be a bit frustrating when you get to a part in the plans and then realize you don’t have the bolts you need and have to wait a week or two while they get ordered.

One thing to remember about buying a kit that is that far along - you have mentioned in other threads that a great unknown for you is your ability to do the kind of work required to build an airplane, and the reason that folks start a Vans kit with the tail kit is that it teaches you skills along the way, in a manner that is simpler and easier to afford if you make mistakes. Picking up a kit in the middle is far more difficult for an inexperienced builder than starting out with the simple, easy stuff.

There is a saying in this world that when you are 90% done, you only have 90% left to go - and it is fairly true. When it looks like an airplane, you still have as much time to put in as you did getting to that point. And there is a LOT to learn. So if you have doubts about your ability to build, buying into a project in the middle is not always the best way to assure completion.

Paul

Old

Corrosion and that blue wrap are the things to look out for as well as mistakes made by previous person. The blue wrap can be a nightmare to remove if it’s been on there a couple of years and especially is it has been sun bleached onto the metal. Ask me how I know. Just the thought of it gives me heartburn and I got over that 5 years ago.

I would echo Paul’s comments. My thought is that if you have never built before, I would be careful. When a new builder starts off with the tail kit, if they decide its not for them, you’re out $5k. You could lose more than that, along with the hassle of you trying to sell this kit if it doesn’t work out.

The tail kit is where I learned most of the skills i needed to finish the rest of the kit

I had the option to buy a emp kit at a little discount before I started my build and I passed on it. I really wanted to do the whole build myself. I wanted the learning curve to happen the way Van’s has engineered it. If you had built a few planes, no big deal. For a first build, I’d build the whole thing. Full price for a 10 yr old kit is ridiculous. Partially built kits are worth less than their cost, and that is inversely proportional to their percentage complete. A kit still in the crate is worth close to Van’s price. Half finished or more and it is worth less.

You can see the couple of nearly complete 10’s that have been posted here recently. They are priced at a huge discount from those that are finished and flying. The commitment really has to be to the very end or prepare to lose money.

Every Van's kit has a build number. Comes with the empennage kit.
When buying a partially-built kit like this, you need a Bill of Sale that includes the build number sent to the factory, and they will transfer ownership to you.
Whenever parts are ordered, you will include the build number. This helps insure you are getting exactly what you need for your kit.

I bought my empennage kit when I took the factory tour. Awfully convenient to stuff it in the car and take it home with me.
(Also- No sales tax in Oregon)

About the time I was to order wings & fuselage, a guy local to me put his kit up for sale, as he was a one-man transmission shop who didn't have time to continue building- It was just taking up valuable space in his shop.
Having sat for a few years I was concerned about the blue vinyl, but it has been no problem. Never in sunlight, always dry, it peels of almost as easily as new, and zero corrosion.

My wing kit was about 12 years old when I bought it second had. You will have to do the aileron hinge mod that attaches to the rear spar. The older ailerons also are built a little different than those being delivered for the last 5 years or so. No big deal, just be aware of it and know what you have will not match the videos and pictures of folks building the more modern ones. When you order the digital plans, you will see both sets of plans for the different types of ailerons. Also the older wings have the older wingtips that will need a little "fixin" as we say here in the south. If you plan to go aftermarket tips, this is not an issue.

As always, thx a ton for so many thought provoking replies. The appeal of jumping forward in the process is huge for me b/c it means more years of flying with my kids while they're living at home. But good points were made about missing the more thorough parts of the instructions on the Emp kit - hopefully local mentors (and Synergy classes) etc can help me past that if needed. That said, .... The local FSDO ran my question up the ladder this morning (I asked: if I buy an RV10 kit where the tail cone, Emp, ailerons & flaps have all been built by someone who did NOT document it in a build log or pics/videos, and if the kit includes QB Fuse and Wings, would I be able to get it certified as a reg Exhibition aircraft by logging/documenting my work to finish it, etc) - FSDO higher ups here in SLC looked up stuff & cited FAA order 81-30.2J & said that when I go to get it certified, they'd have to certify it as Experimental Exhibition. Too many limitations there. I have told seller that I'll only buy it if he can find his builder logs & documentation & he reiterated that he doesn't have it. Unless he finds it, I'll pass.

Exhibition? Nearly everyone certifies as EAB, experimental amateur built. Are you sure you want exhibition? That brings restrictions with it.

golfmogul said:

As always, thx a ton for so many thought provoking replies. The appeal of jumping forward in the process is huge for me b/c it means more years of flying with my kids while they're living at home. But good points were made about missing the more thorough parts of the instructions on the Emp kit - hopefully local mentors (and Synergy classes) etc can help me past that if needed. That said, .... The local FSDO ran my question up the ladder this morning (I asked: if I buy an RV10 kit where the tail cone, Emp, ailerons & flaps have all been built by someone who did NOT document it in a build log or pics/videos, and if the kit includes QB Fuse and Wings, would I be able to get it certified as a reg Exhibition aircraft by logging/documenting my work to finish it, etc) - FSDO higher ups here in SLC looked up stuff & cited FAA order 81-30.2J & said that when I go to get it certified, they'd have to certify it as Experimental Exhibition.

Click to expand...

I'd call a few of the local DAR's and check. I think if the seller wrote a statement that s/he built it as entertainment/education, and had the signed statement notarized, that would convince most reasonable DAR's to accept the airplane as EAB.

golfmogul said:

As always, thx a ton for so many thought provoking replies. The appeal of jumping forward in the process is huge for me b/c it means more years of flying with my kids while they're living at home. But good points were made about missing the more thorough parts of the instructions on the Emp kit - hopefully local mentors (and Synergy classes) etc can help me past that if needed. That said, .... The local FSDO ran my question up the ladder this morning (I asked: if I buy an RV10 kit where the tail cone, Emp, ailerons & flaps have all been built by someone who did NOT document it in a build log or pics/videos, and if the kit includes QB Fuse and Wings, would I be able to get it certified as a reg Exhibition aircraft by logging/documenting my work to finish it, etc) - FSDO higher ups here in SLC looked up stuff & cited FAA order 81-30.2J & said that when I go to get it certified, they'd have to certify it as Experimental Exhibition. Too many limitations there. I have told seller that I'll only buy it if he can find his builder logs & documentation & he reiterated that he doesn't have it. Unless he finds it, I'll pass.

Click to expand...

You don't need logs. Just a signed affidavit from the original builder (or all builders who owned the kit if more than one), stating that all work was done by himself and other unpaid amateurs and that no commercial assistance was utilized. I have built and registered two kit planes that started their life with a different builder.

Larry

Build log pics requirement

As I understand it, the degree of documentation required depends upon when the building activity occurred. Build log requirements (including pics) have increased, but work performed before the greater documentation requirements went into effect are OK to be documented under older rules, which are less stringent.

As others have said, you want EAB. Not exhibition.

Per the last few comments here, I'll check with some DARs and ask the guy at the FSDO that told me it would have to be exhibition to check again. Sounds like the affidavit might be enough & he offered to do that, along with his amateur friend who helped him build the tail cone/Emp and ailerons. I learned this kit was purchased & the build started in 2007, not 2010 as I previously thought. Hopefully I can still make this work. One of you gave a thorough explanation of how these 2nd hand kits typically sell for significantly less than new kits ... but this seller never advertised and had never considered selling until I found him & offered to buy it. I've negotiated as much as possible & he prefers to keep it & finish it over taking less than the $43,500 we've discussed. For me, I can pay roughly $50k (with crating, freight, options, the Emp, the QP Fuse and Wings) and start from scratch, or I can jump 8 months ahead if I buy his, so I'm still tempted to do it - but only if I can know that the affidavit will be enough to help future DARs certify as reg Experimental ... I will NOT buy this if there's a risk that his undocumented work will cause it to only qualify as Experimental Exhibition. THx again for all the great feedback. I continue to have so much time on my hands & am so eager & motivated to get building (and I genuinely crave a project more than I miss/crave flying while my PA 28-140 is going through its annual) that I plan to order a new 10 Emp kit asap if this 2nd hand kit doesn't work out. Thx

From reading your other post on “can I do it?”, if I were you, I’d just order the emp kit from vans and get started. That way you can see if this project is for you without investing the full $50k right off the bat. It’ll keep you busy for at least a couple of months and will help you learn the skills for the rest of the build.

Honestly, at the price that seller wants, you aren’t getting much of a discount, and a new kit will save you a bunch of time just based on updates to parts, SBs that have been incorporated, better fibreglass, and by the time you get to the wings and fuse, you might be getting the final hole size kits.

Just my 2 cents. I don’t think you’re getting a good enough deal to warrant buying a 13 year old kit.

In a 2007 kit you will be getting the original fuel valve handle which, imho, is the only truly ugly part Vans ever made. - Buy the parts and upgrade to the 2008+ handle which locks (pull up to turn), or get the Andair valve and handle. But seriously: as a new builder, buy a new tail kit, see how you like building. Buy a second hand kit only if it’s a good deal (this one is not).

Make a careful inspection of all the parts, especially the larger skins, and pieces that still have the blue vinyl wrap on. I had to replace one of my wing skins because a squirrel had got into the wing crate and relieved itself on the skins. The urine got under the plastic (via the pre-drilled holes and edges), and caused deep pitting corrosion that wasn't easily visible until I peeled the sheeting off. The corrosion was so deep it was more than 25% of the way through the skin in places.

Parts can be replaced, but especially the large sheet parts are expensive to have shipped. If you find any with bad corrosion, I'd suggest offering a discounted offer (look up the part costs on Van's web site and estimate the shipping). For instance, one of the bottom outboard skins cost approximately $50 to ship from Oregon to PA (and that was rolled up in a rectangular box). Probably cheaper to ship to UT, but make sure.

A guy trying to sell something at a higher than reasonable price is a completely different matter than a guy offerring to buy something that the owner doesn’t want to sell. I’m absolutely sure that the guy would love to unload the project at full value. I would sell my kit at full cost so I could start over and not make the same mistakes again. Do you really want a kit in that condition?

Just start from scratch and if you find out you don’t like building, you won’t have to find another guy out there that is willing to buy at 2x what the going rate is for what you are buying.

Another option would be to attend an empennage build program and complete a new empennage in less than 2 weeks. You could add a few days and complete the tail cone. It does add cost and it doesn't help with the quickbuild lead time, but it would be a very fast start to the kit along with training so you can learn the skills necessary to complete the rest of the kit.

I texted the seller. I won't buy it without a significant discount and only if he finds his documentation after reading so much here. Thx for the good advice. Getting serious about buying his kit & then having the deal fall through really bummed me out, but now I'll have time to get my shop setup properly & learn from the Emp kit the way Vans intended it. Getting excited - might try to start building the EAA worktable tonight. I've been searching these forums today & can't find the type of thread I'm sure exists here where people talk about & show pics of their shop/garage setups & discuss the pro's & cons of various ways to setup for building. I'm sure that's been discussed tons in the forums but I can't find a thread all about that so please link to it if you know of a thread like that - the internal forum search here, even advanced options, is lacking - I'm often more successful searching on Google & having it guide me to the best thread here in VAF forums. Thx guys.

A member of my local EAA chapter called & offered this idea today: order my own Emp kit from Vans, buy the 2007 Emp/Tailcone & QB Fuse and Wings from this local guy I've been talking & visiting with; build the Emp kit that I purchase from Vans & keep thorough build logs/documentation of my build (and learn the basics from my build, which I need to learn); sell my Emp kit (hopefully for about what I paid Vans for it), then proceed forward with the build from the Emp+QB Fuse/Wings I bought & utilize my documentation to prove that I did the work etc. But could this backfire with a DAR at airworthiness inspection time? Could the DAR say "your build log only pertains to your parts & b/c you don't have build logs/documentation for the Emp kit you bought & used to complete this plane, you lack the 51% & therefore I'll only issue you an Experimental Exhibition certificate? Before this EAA member gave me this idea today, I had settled on buying my kit Monday from Vans & forgetting about the 2007 RV 10 kit this thread is about - right now that's still feeling the best to me. To be clear, I want to do things by the book & take ZERO chance that I might end up with a plane I can't certify as expected (which is why I'm leaning towards just buying everything from Vans ... that said, a few ppl have told me that the FSDO guy who told me that the affidavit of the seller's amateur build isn't enough is more strict than the DAR will be who will actually inspect the plane at the end of the build & that the affidavit will be enough ... )
Confused.
Thoughts?

Way too much thinking going on......order everything from Vans, get started and eliminate all the "what ifs".

I agree with Sam. The price on the 2007 kit is still not great and it’s 13 years old. Just get the new stuff from Vans. When the seller says he’d rather keep it and finish than sell cheaper, let him do that. Though I think he’s full of hot air since if he was keen to finish it, he probably would have sometime in the last 13 years.

Just ordered an Emp kit from Vans directly! Will buy everything new from Vans - thx again for all the good advice. EXCITED!