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EFII System32 - UPDATE

rcpaisley

Well Known Member
Here's the System32 update (more info at www.flyefii.com).

System32 has been running for a year now.
100 systems sold, 50 systems delivered, 20 already flying.
Modern engine management has finally made it to the experimental aircraft world.

System32 is the only fully mapped ignition and fuel system designed specifically for experimental aircraft. The 1990s technology gold boxes we used to use have a simplified mapping scheme that steps from point to point (no interpolation, batch fire system).

The System32 ECUs have more than 75 times the processing power and 10 times the RF noise immunity of the old boxes. System32 is a semi-sequential fuel injection system with full 3D mapping - just like your car. Upgrade customers report improved starting, smoother operation and increased efficiency over the previous batch fire, simple map system.

We are grateful to all of our patient customers who are ready to take delivery of their System32 kits. We are getting several kits out per week. It will take awhile to work through all the back orders.

It's a seven day a week work year for us. No time to blather daily on internet forums.

Oshkosh was awesome. Multiple System32 equipped aircraft were there.
Reno will be here soon. We will have systems flying at various levels of the Sport and Biplane classes.

We love our customers - thank you for all your support!

Robert Paisley
 
If you want modern EFII for your aircraft call Robert

I?ve got nearly 100hours on my RV8 since it was signed off in October and have been running the System32 since day 1.

The System32 has been fantastic, the engine starts incredibly easily(no such thing as a hot start with the System32),it runs smooth and efficiently. Setup and programming is easy with the controller which also provides key redundant engine information should the G3X fail.

Robert has been responsive to my questions over the last couple years and has worked with me to customize the install for my needs. I highly recommend the System32.

Feel free to PM me if you have questions I?m happy to talk about my experience.
 
Ditto

Same for me. I am not flying yet but Robert has been there for all questions and has helped customize my system32 for my -10 install.

Feel free to contact me as well if you want to discuss it...
 
PERFORMANCE EFII

I purchased the original system in the gold boxes from Robert in 2015 for an RV-14A with a Superior XP400 and Engine.
The technology for Electonic ignition is not new, but to adopt it for an aircraft for me was. I know why we have two magnetos in an aircraft, it's an electro mechanical device that will fail, and that's why we do a mag check prior to every departure. For. Me, taking on Roberts system was a leap of faith, and while there were many that had the system prior to my install, that wasn't me.

In fairness Having not installed any electronic fuel or ignition, the instructions were confusing, but Robert stepped me through them as the system was installed. That included nights, Saturday's and Sunday's. So the biggest question, will somebody be there to help was answered. Did it go smoothly?
For the most part, very smoothly. Since we're all building one off proto types,
There was some of that " how am I going to do that?"
Robert always had a suggestion that helped guide a solution.

How's it run? Smoothest 4 cylinder I've ever sat in, and when others road in it everyone commented on the smoothness of the engine.

I do run LOP on my cross on all my cross countries so the system easily accommodates that, but if you never adjusted the fuel the engine performed flawlessly with out makining any adjustments all the up through 18,000 feet.

Here's the best part, my wife's a non current pilot from many years ago, so she does enjoy flying. But the simplicity and performance, put back in the left seat.

A good friend took on one of the first System 32 systems in a new RV-8
Once the system was dialed in, the engine operated with exactly the same smoothness and performance, he could not be happier.

Thank you Robert for helping to move the industry forward
 
The System32 ECUs have more than 75 times the processing power and 10 times the RF noise immunity of the old boxes.

Did it need the 75x and 10x? If so, why? What does it deliver to the user?

System32 is a semi-sequential fuel injection system with full 3D mapping - just like your car.

Might want to explain how "semi-sequential" differs from batch and sequential.

Anyway, it's a feature. What is the benefit? Why do you feel it is better than other systems?
 
System32 upgrade process

What does it take to upgrade from the EFII legacy product?

Just call or email and we can get you on the schedule.
Upgrades from the old system include:
System32 ECUs, 2ea.
System32 Cockpit Controller.
System32 Main Wire Harness.
System32 Crank Trigger.

There are a couple of wiring differences with the control switches on the new system. The ignition run-up switches control P-Lead signal wires from the ECUs and the ECU select switch wiring is different for the fuel control.
These are minimal effort changes - see the drawings in the new install manual.

The rest of your old system remains unchanged. The new control electronics can be installed in a day. It's a pretty easy upgrade.

Robert
 
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With the semi-sequential injection, does the fuel flow go down since you are injecting on demand instead of constant fuel flow? An estimated of how much is saved?
 
Why System32 ????????

Did it need the 75x and 10x? If so, why? What does it deliver to the user?

Might want to explain how "semi-sequential" differs from batch and sequential.

Anyway, it's a feature. What is the benefit? Why do you feel it is better than other systems?

Good questions Dan,
System32 is a migration from entry level automotive electronics designed in the 1990s to state of the art, current technology electronics designed with the reliability, redundancy, engine interface, airframe interface and pilot interface required to properly serve this market. That may sound nebulous, but that's the glossy overview.

We've been involved with microprocessor based engine electronics since the late 1980s. A lot has changed since then with microprocessors and engine management. Not unlike the change you have seen with cell phones from the Motorola brick phone to current smartphone technology. The user interface and processing capabilities available today are light years ahead of what was available 30 years ago. Coincidentally, the processor used in our legacy system was similar to what was in a Motorola brick phone (same brand even).

System32 uses a 32 bit RISC processor (that means it's extremely fast, especially with math processes), a four layer gold plated circuit board, EMI filtering on every connection to the outside world, a high end internal power supply that keeps the ECU running with input voltages from 3.5v to 40v, a high speed user interface (to the Controller) for display and control, seamless integration of two ECUs (the user manages one system).

The high speed math capability of the 32 bit processors allows us to implement fully interpolated 3D mapping for both ignition and fuel control.
This solved a couple of problems that we had with the old system. The old simple mapping causes limitations in handling detonation margins at take off for fixed pitch props and during decent with constant speed props. The new mapping fixes both of these issues and surprisingly is a much simpler scheme to work with as a user. If you Google "fuel map" and look at the images, you will see countless examples of 3D mapping. This is how all modern engine management systems work. The System32 ECUs build the curve between map points, there is no stepping from point to point as in the old simple mapping scheme. New values for fuel delivery and ignition timing are re-calculated after every ignition event (2 times per rev for 4 cyl, 3 time per rev for 6 cyl engines). You have to have a high speed processor to do this. 30 year old hobby processors are not up to this task.

Aircraft environments have a lot of radio frequency events occurring - comm transmissions, transponder transmissions, ADSB output, ignition spark events.
These are all highly energetic electrical events in a vehicle that may or may not have systems properly grounded. The more electrical noise immunity available in critical systems, the better - especially in engine management systems. System32 has extremely good EMI resistance.

System32 is a semi-sequential fuel injection system. Our original system was a batch fire system - typical in original implementations of automotive electronic fuel injection. Batch fire means that the fuel delivery is not timed to the intake valve position. Fuel squirts into the intake tract at some time and the next time the intake valve opens, the fuel gets sucked into the cylinder along with the induction air. Batch fire systems end up with different fuel timing on each cylinder - this works, but is not ideal. Semi-sequential fuel injection is timed to the intake valve opening. Full sequential systems use a crankshaft position sensor to determine which cycle the engine is on and inject fuel only on the intake stroke of each cylinder - fuel is delivered to a given cylinder once every two revolutions of the engine. Semi-sequential systems (like System32) do not include a camshaft position sensor. They deliver timed fuel on every rotation of the engine. On one rotation, the intake valve is open (intake stroke), on the next rotation the intake valve is closed (power stroke). Half of the fuel is delivered when the intake valve is open, the other half of the fuel is delivered on the opposite stroke when the intake valve is closed. The result of sequential or semi-sequential fuel delivery is that there is always fuel delivered in concert with the opening of the intake valve. This yields improved starting, smoother operation, better off-idle throttle response, and greater efficiency.

Other fun things about System32:
Firmware can be field updated with an SD card.
The system logs all system data to the Controller SD card (1, 5, or 10 second increments).
Live fuel tuning via the Controller is VERY simple.
3D maps can be viewed and manipulated in Excel.
Compatible with Tecat torque sensors for live cockpit display of torque and horsepower (turn your run-in stand or your airframe into a dyno).
Proportional and tunable ADI (methanol injection) control for highly boosted engines (Reno).
System32 can be remotely tuned and controlled (UAV).
Live telemetry interface (UAV and Reno).
**** The above functions are all included in the current firmware****
(Now you can start to see the advantages of having a powerful ECU :)

We had a LONG wish list of features we wished we had when we were using the old ECUs - now we have all of these features and more.

Robert
 
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The result of sequential or semi-sequential fuel delivery is that there is always fuel delivered in concert with the opening of the intake valve.

I think it would be more fair to say that half of the fuel is delivered in concert and the other half of the fuel is NOT delivered in concert with the valve opening, just like a batch system. Curious how this give the benefits typically associated with sequential injection over batch.

Also, a fair amount of design work is required to get the timing right with sequential injection if any benefits over batch are to be expected. Though not sure this applies to your system, as the injectors are very far from the intake valve. I also struggle to see the benefits of sequential injection when the injector is 6" from the valve.

Larry
 
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I also struggle to see the benefits of sequential injection when the injector is 6" from the valve.

Larry

Our injectors are mounted in the primer ports pointing directly at the intake valve. Half the fuel load is always delivered when the valve is open, the other half of the fuel is already sitting there waiting. This yields all of the mentioned benefits.

Robert
 
EFII vs mechanical injection

With the semi-sequential injection, does the fuel flow go down since you are injecting on demand instead of constant fuel flow? An estimated of how much is saved?

Electronic fuel injection delivers balanced fuel delivery to all cylinders under all operating conditions, starting, idling, mid rpm , cruise power, and high power.
Mechanical (constant flow) injection can not provide this. The result is a better starting, smoother running engine that is both more efficient and makes more max power. The electronic injectors also atomize the fuel whereas the mechanical injectors provide a smooth stream of liquid fuel. This also aids power and efficiency.

Going to our system from mags and mechanical injection will yield a 1 GPH reduction in cruise fuel flow on a 360 engine (1.5 GPH on a 540).

Robert
 
Wait - there's more

Other fun things about System32:
Firmware can be field updated with an SD card.
The system logs all system data to the Controller SD card (1, 5, or 10 second increments).
Live fuel tuning via the Controller is VERY simple.
3D maps can be viewed and manipulated in Excel.
Compatible with Tecat torque sensors for live cockpit display of torque and horsepower (turn your run-in stand or your airframe into a dyno).
Proportional and tunable ADI (methanol injection) control for highly boosted engines (Reno).
System32 can be remotely tuned and controlled (UAV).
Live telemetry interface (UAV and Reno).
**** The above functions are all included in the current firmware****
(Now you can start to see the advantages of having a powerful ECU :) )

Robert
 
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Electronic fuel injection delivers balanced fuel delivery to all cylinders under all operating conditions, starting, idling, mid rpm , cruise power, and high power. Mechanical (constant flow) injection can not provide this. The result is a better starting, smoother running engine that is both more efficient and makes more max power. The electronic injectors also atomize the fuel whereas the mechanical injectors provide a smooth stream of liquid fuel. This also aids power and efficiency.

Going to our system from mags and mechanical injection will yield a 1 GPH reduction in cruise fuel flow on a 360 engine (1.5 GPH on a 540).

Robert

There are areas where EFI is unquestionably superior. Better starting and idle are excellent examples, for clear physical reasons. Why not promote the things a good EFI will actually do?
 
System32 advantages

There are areas where EFI is unquestionably superior. Better starting and idle are excellent examples, for clear physical reasons. Why not promote the things a good EFI will actually do?

All areas of engine operation are improved when you go to electronic fuel injection. We have nearly 600 planes and pilots flying who will back that up.

Why do you think the car you drive now runs so much better than the car you drove 40 years ago.

One thing is for sure - No one ever goes back to mechanical systems once they experience how much better their engine can run with modern control systems.
 
System 32 PIREP

Earlier this year, I finished installing System 32 on Dan Robinson's new Super Berkut 540, Operated by Red 6 Aerospace. Since 2011, I've worked with about 20 EFII projects on various aircraft types, and in different levels of application (from single ECU Igntition, to dual ECU/Complete EFII).

The application on this Berkut was fun and challenging. The fun definitely is due to the well engineered and executed system components and install kit that Robert has dedicated the last two years to developing. The challenges we faced lie within the airframe itself, and the customization that was required to get everything on board and appropriately installed.

We have been flying the aircraft since May 1, 2019 and are approaching 70 hours of time in the air. The performance that we are seeing from the engine and this system is absolutely sensational. After plenty of 4-cylinder EFII applications, this is my first extended exposure to a platform flying a 6-cylinder 540 with the electronic fuel injection. I've never felt a single engine piston aircraft feel smoother, stronger, or safer than this. That kind of user experience and performance is certainly a testament to the capability and integrity of System 32. We have no doubt had our squawks, and dealt with our frustrations through the process, but hindsight has proven that all of the devils within those details were due to our application of the system, and design challenges with the airframe, and limited interior space within the engine cowls. We've got it all figured out, and the support and attention that we've received from Robert and Lyla has been exceptional. Rest assured that they stand behind their product, take pride in their work, and do whatever it takes to ensure the satisfaction of their customer base, which leads to an amazing flying experience.

Ask your questions, educate yourselves, and move forward knowing that the time, effort, and expense that you commit to the completion of your aircraft, and installation/use of System 32 is worth it. Smooth starts, total control of engine performance, increased safety and engine life, reduced fuel burn, and amazing power delivery. Get some System32.

Chris Randall
Long-EZ Builder/Pilot
EFII Installation Specialist/Consultant
Director Flight Operations, Red 6 Aerospace
 
Upgrade

Having just completed the System 32 update on Karl Grove?s super legacy Reno race plane, I can definitely say, wow! I was fortunate to see most fo the parts long ago, but to see how it evolved to its current iteration, they definitely thought of everything. From a sheer build quality perspective, no other EFII type system comes close. I?ve put my hands on all of them.
On the legacy, everything is very accessible. You flip open the canopy and you can stand right there and access everything behind the panel. We had the old system out and the new system in, in a little over a day.
The the engine fired right up and purred. You do have a very good starting point for the fuel maps based on engine and horse power, but you will still have to use the AFR to get your settings at some squared power settings. The good news is, the new cockpit controller is so easy to use, making tweaks is quick and easy.
I?m looking forward to upgrading myself. I?m NOT looking forward to the instal in my plane, only because everything is so difficult to access in my install...:(. Once it?s done, though....
 
After a trip from SoCal to OSH, I surpassed 250 hours on my System 32 installation. Being one of the first installs had a couple challenges, but in the end showed how robust Robert has built these units. The system has been rock solid. The performance and dependability from the airplane is undeniably better. The support Robert has offered, especially for a first time installer like myself, has been better than any other experimental aviation part manufacturer. The controller is a perfect finishing touch to set this product apart from the others in this space. Whether your racing in Reno or racing your RV around the patch, this is the system you want.
 
Proceed with caution

I posted here yesterday about my experience with EFII and Robert Paisley. The site owner, Doug Reeves, felt that I crossed the line into vendor bashing. I totally support having rules on a social media forums, and Doug was reasonable and understanding. To strike a fair balance, and this is entirely voluntary, I'm deleting all but one of one of my posts and replacing them with a timeline of my communications with EFII without any commentary. You are free to draw your own conclusions.

(Bob is my nickname. Either name is fine.)

February 21, 2018
EFII System 32 ordered through Barrett Precision Engines.

August 29, 2018
(Engine is hung and I ask for advice on how to proceed.)

Hi Syrus,
If you think the plane is going to be flying within 60 days. I would get it going with the parts you have now. If you think it will be flying closer to end of the year, I would wait for your System32 parts. ?
Robert

May 28, 2019 ? 1st request for shipment
Hi Syrus,
Everything is in production now. We are building parts as quickly as possible.
Shipments are currently going to planes that are ready to fly now. We have about 60 systems to build to catch up. Let me know when you get closer to critical need and we will get you into a completion group. Thank you for your patience,
Robert

July 8, 2019 ? 2nd request
Hi Syrus,
The next batch of electronics will start to finish in about three weeks.
Your parts will be from this batch,
?
We have shipped the first 50 systems. 20 are already flying.
We are building the next 50 kits now - this will clear all backorders.
?
Thank you for your patience,
Robert

August 12, 2019 ? 3rd request
Hi Syrus,
We have all the parts in house now.
We are shipping completion kits as quickly as we can make wire harnesses.
It's going to be a couple more weeks before we can get parts to you,
Robert

(NOTE: This is where I begin to lose it and complain that he doesn?t have the right to pick and choose which orders he wants to fulfill.)

His reply:
You knew you were ordering a system that was not yet available. You were approx 40th on the list at the time of order. Full systems started shipping in April.
We are filling back orders as quickly as possible for the upgrades.

September 19, 2019
With no shipment or further word from Mr. Paisley, I begin posting on this forum.
 
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System32 progress

Yes, System32 is in a backorder situation.
We are continually adding additional resources to increase production and alleviate the situation.

Kits are shipping every week and we are making good progress.

Most companies in this industry are currently in backorder due to improvement in the economy. We have a double challenge due to this in addition to the popularity of System32.

Now that Osh and Reno are complete, we can focus all attentions on production.

We thank our customers for working with us through this period,
Robert
 
My experience with EFII and Robert Paisley has not been as positive as some of the others on this thread. I purchased the System 32 in Feb of 2018 through Barrett Precision Engines. On Aug, 2018, I inquired about the date the System 32 components would be available and was told by the end of the year. In May of this year I said I was ready to install when I got the parts, and was told to let him know when the need was "critical". On July 8th I emailed him and said I could start the engine within 2 weeks if I had the parts. I told "3 more weeks". On Aug 12th I finally lost patience and demanded that my parts be shipped. I was told "couple more weeks". It's now September 18th, and I've haven't received the parts and have had no further word from Mr. Paisley.

Thank you for posting this. It has helped me to organize my future plans.
 
curious

Hi Syrus,
Just curious what happened to the full Legacy system that was shipped with your engine to get you going while waiting for the new parts?

Robert
 
Happy to satisfy your curiosity. You instructed me to not install the old system if my plane wouldn't be flying by the end of LAST year. From your email in Aug, 2018:


"If you think it will be flying closer to end of the year, I would wait for your System32 parts.
These projects generally take much longer than projected (as I'm sure you well know)."

And it takes even longer when you're sitting around waiting for parts. A lot longer....
 
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Just a data point here--------I ordered my SDS EFI&I system early August, Ross hand delivered it to me at the air races last week.

5-6 weeks from order to being in my hand.
 
lead times

Just a data point here--------I ordered my SDS EFI&I system early August, 5-6 weeks from order to being in my hand.

We traditionally had a 30 day lead time on systems, until we spent two years and a few hundred kilo$ to bring quality, safe, modern engine management to this market. Thankfully it's here now, fully functional and shipping. Now we have to scale to meet the need. Hopefully we can work back to the 30 day time frame this year. Our production runs 7 days a week, if we had 9 days a week, we would gladly use them.

Robert
 
Why plaster this site with your gripes on every EFII thread you can find? You made your feelings known. Robert has done his best to address them. Seems he went above and beyond by supplying you with a legacy system in the interim.

I for one am extremely pleased with my EFII system. I took delivery of the legacy system instead of waiting. Robert was extremely responsive in helping me set it up.

Great product, great support.
 
The lack of technical understanding, poor design choices, material selections, and the fact the fuel pump bracket I got had holes touching fillet radii (as a designer this is particularly egregious to me) is why I won't be going with EFII.

The back and forth with a customer via forum while ignoring him off-forum is the icing on the cake...
 
quality

We only use the best parts and materials available.
This is not true of all vendors here. Some people want the cheapest product available - they know where to get their parts. Our customers want the best parts available. Some vendors live on the internet selling snake oil - we are swamped with manufacturing and don't like the taste of snake oil - pretty clear distinction.
 
Well...

Well, I was going to stay out of it...but...that last comment about poor design and materials was it.

I have been very happy, overall, with my EFII experience.

I was an early customer of the System32, and although there was some frustration at times with the delivery of the new hardware, my experience with Robert has been excellent. I have NEVER had an issue contacting him or him replying to my questions or concerns. When I found that the new harness would not work well in the place of the Legacy, due to the way I routed it, Robert made it right. He has answered questions and phone calls at times when virtually no other company would have even been available. I have NO complaints with his customer service.

As far as the design and materials go, I have seen nothing in my System 32 that is less than top quality materials and construction. I had no issues with my fuel pump mount or anything else, for that matter. The ECU's are beautiful, the new harness as well.

My only frustration was the delivery schedule...but that was rectified as well.

Keep doing what you are doing, Robert!
 
Question about 30-day lead time.

We traditionally had a 30 day lead time on systems, until we spent two years and a few hundred kilo$ to bring quality, safe, modern engine management to this market. Thankfully it's here now, fully functional and shipping. Now we have to scale to meet the need. Hopefully we can work back to the 30 day time frame this year. Our production runs 7 days a week, if we had 9 days a week, we would gladly use them.

Robert

Mr. Paisley,

On July 8th you said you'd begun production of the 2nd batch of 50 System 32 components that will "clear out all the back orders" (Including mine) and those 50 are still in process. When will you finish that run?

I ask because it looks like close to 90 days for you to complete a run of 50 systems. Given that, how will you get to a 30-day lead time for someone who places a new order with you sometime this year? That seems to indicate you're going to more than double your rate of output in a short period of time. (Less than 100 days left in 2019.) I'm no manufacturing expert, but that sounds hard to believe. I'm sure you've heard the maxim that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". Is there anything you can tell us to make that seem doable?

Syrus
 
System32 kits

Hi Syrus,
We have many kits in process. Several kits ship each week.
Your parts are in the current completion batch,

Robert
 
Data Point(s):

1) Ordered (and paid) for 1/2 system in August--received all items I needed to facilitate build process immediately (all items received within 3 weeks);
2) Ordered (and paid) for remaining system in September--received items needed (as needed/requested) and final system items received last week.

I have NO ISSUES WRT delivery or service!!

Bottom line: IMHO be reasonable/prudent/rational/pragmatic and communicate your needs and the response will be as expected.
 
EFII on my RV10

I have 913 Hobbs on my RV10 which took to the sky 09.15.2015 using Robs original system. I finally received my new system 32. I cannot imagine going mags and mechanical FI, and I have always received good and most times excellent service from Robert.

I am very happy with this system.

Thor Mcilrath

I paid dues but it might have expired, KAWO Arlington, wa
 
I have 110 hours on my System32 and it runs great. My hanger buddies are jealous of engine starting after 3 or 4 blades every time.
 
FWIW

FWIW,
I always received prompt and informative replies by Robert either by mail or phone.
Top notch !!
AerosportPower built my engine and installed the System 32 items that goes on it.
The rest of items are currently being installed/connected.
High quality parts all over.


One detail though, I made a small bracket and installed a small spring to counter just enough the one in the supplied throttle body that closes the butterfly if no cable is linked on.
This way, if (and yes, probabilities are low) the throttle cable or its hardware breaks or disconnects in flight, the throttle will be WOT instead of idle...
Aviation world v.s. automotive world...

Needless to say, the spring will be checked regularly!!!
 

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Please help me understand. I like the system in theory but struggle with the loss of the alternator in IFR needing to be on the ground ASAP. how much weight is saved? If fuel is saved how is the long term engine wear? How much extra heat is generated?
 
Please help me understand. I like the system in theory but struggle with the loss of the alternator in IFR needing to be on the ground ASAP. ?


Being an EDE (electric dependant engine) you need to consider redundancy in case of failure(s). One alternator/one battery would not be prudent in my opinion.

Many options are possible with a combination of one alternator-2 batteries, 2 alternators- 1 battery, 2 alternators-2batteries.
Batteries should be sized accordingly to provide long enough power to essential systems. The more the better. with 2 batteries, it's possible to have close to 2 hours of operation without alternator. The plan should still be to find a place to land ASAP when that happens.
The electrical schematics have to be thought out to avoid single point failures. Implies some research and study, plus more wiring of course...

I can't speak about your other questions, not flying yet but almost there...
 
EFII

I have a dual split bus architecture with dual alternators and dual EXT900 batteries.

The only thing on my essential bus is the EFII system, and according to the G3X, it draws between 5 and 7 amps when the engine is running. The ETX900 batteries are rated at 15.6 Ah, so you can see that there is sufficient reserve available.

As far as single point failures go, if you drill down far enough, you will always be able to find one. There is no perfect system. Instead, it is about risk mitigation...
 
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