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Approach speeds and standards, RV-7A, C/S prop, 180HP??

tkatc

Well Known Member
Just having bought my RV7A I am a new RV pilot. There is so much to learn (new airplane, new systems, maintenance, etc) I am feeling a bit overwhelmed and that is interfering with my ability to learn ANYTHING. I have to remind myself to concentrate on one thing at a time. I have decided the first thing I want to master is the landing sequence.

I have had transition training in a -6A with a 160hp, fp prop. I was taught a landing sequence that made sense in my head. When I went out to buy the RV I had a different instructor run through the sequence but he had an entirely different theory and so I now find myself confused. I find myself coming in at a higher speed for fear of the stall, and I am splitting the difference between 2 theories for pitch attitude. One instructor taught to keep the nose on the runway numbers, the other had a nose high attitude.

I would be very interested in hearing about your approach sequence. I am talking every detail starting at the 45* entry. MP, how you slow it down, speed in kts, when do you push the prop forward, flaps, decent rate and when you start the decent, speed you hold etc etc.

It seems crazy that I would be so confused after flying the airplane across the entire country but I obviously do not have a standard set of values that I am using. I am torn between 2 theories and nothing is consistent. I want your opinions so that I can establish a standard of my own.
 
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landing

Nose on the numbers untill you are over them, then gentle flair carrying just a little power and let her settle down on the mains,,,,keep the nose wheel off as long as you can, then down gently....
 
Approach speeds and standards, RV7A

Just having bought my RV7A I am a new RV pilot. There is so much to learn (new airplane, new systems, maintenance, etc) I am feeling a bit overwhelmed.

I am torn between 2 theories and nothing is consistent. I want your opinions so that I can establish a standard of my own.

"Your results may vary", but................ for my airplane here are the #'s I strive for when landing:

1) Enter down wind @ 120 MPH & trim for 105 MPH
2) 20 deg of flaps and trim for 90 MPH and a desent rate of 500 to 700 FPM
3) 30 deg of flaps on base and 85 MPH
4) 40 deg of flaps and 80 MPH over the numbers

BTW, I'd strongly reccomend not using 40 deg of flaps until you have a bunch of landings under your belt! Just hold the 30 and 85 over the #'s and slowly bleed the speed off with a little back pressure on your stick (over the runway). Then, as David said, .........."gentle flair carrying just a little power and let her settle down on the mains,,,,keep the nose wheel off as long as you can, then down gently...."


Hope this helps!
 
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I never think about the sight picture when landing.

I enter the 45 at whatever speed I feel like for that day, or whatever fits in with traffic. The C/S prop will have the plane slowed down enough for the base turn.

On downwind I dump all the flaps in when in the white arc.

Turn base at ~ 80kts...turn final and pitch for 70kts. Sometimes I'll slow to even 65kts IAS for final if I'm trying to lose altitude.

If you haven't done a lot of slow flight I would highly recommend it. It will make you much more comfortable with landing speeds.
 
You bought that beautiful bird from Bob Barrow, right? It would seem he would be "the man" for advice, numbers, etc... Have you talked to him about it?

FWIW, just before I turn final I'm at flaps 40, 70kts if at gross then bleed off to 65 to the flare. If solo, 5kts less. Works well in my -6a. However, your ASI and everyone else's may vary some. Have you stalled it flaps up and down? Note the stall speed and initially land at that times 1.3 is your final.

I push the blue knob in on downwind when I'm slowed to 100kts, throttle back, pitch up, flaps at 85kts.
 
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Nose high slow approaches can get you behind the power curve fast in an RV....the high decent rate will also scare your passengers.

I like to always keep myself in a position that I can make the field if my engine quits anywhere from abeam the numbers on in. A nose high slow approach may not get you there depending on how far out your base turn is. Even having enough elevator control left to arrest the decent with no power might be a problem as well. Not a happy place to be...

I have a FP but:

Like Jamie, get slowed to top of White arc abeam the numbers and get all the flaps out, fly 75-80kts around the base turn, slow to 65-70kts on final, I forget the ASI once the field is made over the threshold and I am looking outside. I adjust the final speed depending on how the plane feels.
 
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Brantel, that makes a lot of sense to me. That is how I was initially trained but the conflicting data I got was from a highly qualified RV pilot. I think I like the nose down approach. What altitude are you guys turning base and how far out? Seems like to me, the RV base turn would be much closer in than the Cherokee I used to fly.

I agree that slow flight will help a lot. Lower ceilings has prevented me from really getting into that but it is on the agenda.

Keep the details coming.
 
Nose high slow approaches can get you behind the power curve fast in an RV....the high decent rate will also scare your passengers.

I like to always keep myself in a position that I can make the field if my engine quits anywhere from abeam the numbers on in. A nose high slow approach may not get you there depending on how far out your base turn is. Even having enough elevator control left to arrest the decent with no power might be a problem as well. Not a happy place to be...

All my VFR landings follow this approach said here.

Having a similar power plan/prop, here are my steps that I try to follow and if followed gives me a very smooth landing

The speed in the 110K range in the down wind leg and I pull to idle a beam of the numbers. I wait till I am at flap speed 87-90k and put first flap (15 degree), will slow down to about 75-80K and on base I will set second notch of flap (30), on Final once I know I have made the runway, I will set full flap and typically nose down to the numbers, with this I am aiming at 70K speed. With a gentle flair, it can be greased in to the runway.

Good luck, you will really like your new plane.

PS. Like Brantel said? last think you want is to be slow closer to the ground. With RVs they descend really fast when slow and it is not that quick to get the speed back.
 
My base turn is pretty close in for the reasons listed above.

Here is a typical pattern for me at my home field of MOR in Green. The Red line is .85 miles and the Yellow one is .95 miles. My typical max base turn distance is between .6 (that road and bridge off the end) and 1 mile depending on conditions and traffic.

1zgb9z5.jpg


Most of my downwind-base-final turns look more like a 180° than a rectangular pattern, this seems to fit the RV's better than square turns.
 
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all is correct. I have the set up you do. I run in at 165kts and pull back on the throttle at 3 miles out. It will slow to about 110kts no problems, slower than that is a trick in this airplane. I find that if I'm at 1000agl and doing 110kts it's ok to put in 10% flaps, the plane than slows very fast to the white ark. depending on traffic I'll either leave the flaps where they are or dump them to 40%. Now if I leave them at 10% I'll maintain 85 kts until about 1 mile out than dump to 40%. Than the speed goes right down to 70kts, than I need to put in a bit of power, usually the decent is about 600vsi. I maintain this all the way down to the runway, as I round it out I make my speed about 62kts and land the plane. This is done on a straight in, which is what the tower gives for an entry in.
 
One other tip FWIW?

the biggest hurdle for me was the side view. I was not use to such rather steep looking-down-the-numbers when I flew the DA20 and if I was going to go by the same visual as the DA20, I will be getting way too slow and unless I add power I will be slamming down. When I was doing my IFR training, on many of the landings my instructor would said, "you are too high to land and should go around". 10-15 seconds later, he goes "wow? I guess you know your plane"
 
As was stated earlier, you need to find out what IAS your airplane stalls
at. Although I have an -8A, the speeds and power settings should be
close. My airplane's Vso is 50 knots IAS. 1.3 X Vso is 65k IAS. With that
determined, my over the fence speed is 65 - 70k when I'm light and 70 - 75k
when heavy.

On the 45 I reduce power to 15 inches. This will slow the airplane to
approx 90k, at which 10* flaps are lowered. Trimmed and stable abeam
the numbers, reduce power to 1800 rpm and 80 knots. Now that the prop
is on the low pitch stop I go thru GUMP, Gas fullest tank, no U :), Mixture
rich, prop full forward. When the touch down zone is 45* off the tail, turn
base, adjusting the flaps and power as needed. Usually turning base it's 20*
and then full flaps turning final. Maintaining 80k until on final and then slowing
to what ever my over the fence is. Usually with the C/S power is required right up
until the flare (I usually reduce power just before flaring). Eyes outside, hold it off nose high.
Does this sound like the approach your instructers taught during PPL training?
It is, just adapted for this airplane. The instructor in me just won't go away.
At my home airport it rarely is so straight forward. With traffic, extended downwinds
or short approaches are more the norm. The value of being able to fly forever at 80 Knots IAS
or even 70 knots IAS (like following Cubs into OSH) can't be understated.
Practicing slow flight frequently will greatly improve your pattern skills and will
help you determine what power settings you need for speed/flap settings.
Every airplane is different. Learn yours.
 
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My 7

Down to 100kts abeam the numbers, 4 count on flaps (half flaps). Trim for 80 kts. Turn base, remainder of flaps. Trim for 70kts on final. Over the fence, 65 kts to landing.

You'll find the 7 will really float if you are too fast.

The best method for speed reduction is a turn. When I arrive at my field from the West it is a mid field cross over. I come across fast and turn relatively hard to downwind while reducing power. I can be at 100 kts abeam the numbers for the approach.

As Tom noted, know where YOUR plane stalls. Then multiply that by 1.3 and that will be a good solid "no slower than" speed for final. (50 x 1.3=65).
 
RV6A O320 sensenich.......

When I enter down wind, I normally stay close enough to the runway to make a dead stick landing if I am in first place. abeam the numbers I cut the power and lower the flaps one notch. I then lift the nose just enough to see 85 mph and I hold that speed and start to descend. When I see the end of the runway show up behind my wing, I turn base. At this point depending where I am with remaining altitude, I will pull full flaps if I am high, or wait till I am on final. From the start of the turn form down wind to final it is a continues standard rate descending turn. With wings level on final, I slow the approach down to 70 mph, and see about 65 mph at about 6 feet above the runway.

The 6A can flair deeper that the 6 due to the location of the mains. And this will allow you to land like a bird. On a steep approach like this, that last few mph is burned off during the flair and the airplane is stalled when the tires touch the runway. This is all done at idle power.

Once you get the feel for the a/c in slow flight and the picture of the flair out the SIDE of the canopy, you will find that the 6A is really easy to land. If you have a long runway, say more that 3000ft, make your landing with full flaps but instead of holding the flair, ease off a little on the stick and add just enough power so the mains don't touch. With power, just hold it there and look around to see what the attitude of the a/c is. That is what you will see during your flair.

At mid field apply full power establish your climb, and then slowly retract the flaps.
 
It will come with practice

I owned a Piper Archer II for 22 years before I finished the RV-6A so I sense what you are going through. The oleo struts on the Cherokee and the nose wheel steering are great as are its docile flight characteristics. I do not have a textbook procedure for landing but what has been described here with the nose down approach is consistent with what I have found to work for me over the past seven years in the RV-6A. Transition training with Mike Seager was great for the constant speed prop operation. At some point in the throttle closure process the manifold pressure bottoms out enough so the constant speed prop becomes a fixed pitch prop in that you can push the prop control to high RPM and there is no change in RPM. That is where you want it for landing for slow down drag and climb performance if needed. When I have the plane slowed enough to lower the flaps (top of the white arc) I lower them to the full deployed stop. I typically make a short approach so I can't tell you what the airport environment picture should look like - I know my target is the approach end of the runway and that is what I aim for. If I am getting too close to the airport at too high of a speed for lowering the flaps, I pull up the nose until the airspeed is OK for flaps. If I am too high I slip the airplane to lose altitude. I start final at 85 kts and never get below 65 until I am bleeding speed in the landing flare. I never get the nose too high in the flare but I never let the nose gear touch until the plane is at taxi speed - this is a balancing act. I always have my hand on the throttle and add power if I get that sinking feeling - I always want to fly it on softly and never drop in on.

You are right to be focusing on the landing procedure that works for you I think since this is where you and the plane are most vulnerable. Hopefully your apprehension and focused practice will get your comfort level up without damaging the plane or yourself in the process. In cross country cruise it flies just like a cherokee. On takeoff pretty much the same but there is a tendency to get on the right brake along with the rudder and it is not unusual for the right brake pads to wear out early because of it. This can be serious if you don't stay on top of it (I replace my pads every year) remember no nose gear steering. Practice taxiing turns using the rudder and avoiding the brakes as much as practical.

Bob Axsom
 
An angle of attack indicator is most useful. I use that D10A feature all the time.

Its accuracy has been proven several times, when the moving line touches the red mark the airplane stalls so if it is in the green just below the yellow bar everything is good. With a light airplane that equates to about 62 KIAS on final.

It is a good speed unless there is a gusty cross wind, had the bottom fall out 2 days ago and a ton of aft stick just caught it before touch down....learning never stops in this business, 65-70 KIAS would have been better on that approach.
 
I second David's comments below.

The Dynon AOA indicator has proven very accurate for me as well. Hits the Red and the plane stalls every time. My remote indicator has allowed me to investigate the area on the bad side of the curve. I have found that the RV7 can be pretty far on the bad side before reaching critical AOA. The decent rate is scary in this zone. I suspect that this feels allot like the way the Space Shuttle feels when they get the nose way up in the air. Kinda like trying to fly a brick...more like controlling the fall of a brick.

If I stay in the sweet spot of the curve, the AOD indicator hangs around the middle of the Green zone. Nowhere near the critical AOA.

An angle of attack indicator is most useful. I use that D10A feature all the time.

Its accuracy has been proven several times, when the moving line touches the red mark the airplane stalls so if it is in the green just below the yellow bar everything is good. With a light airplane that equates to about 62 KIAS on final.

It is a good speed unless there is a gusty cross wind, had the bottom fall out 2 days ago and a ton of aft stick just caught it before touch down....learning never stops in this business, 65-70 KIAS would have been better on that approach.
 
It is a good speed unless there is a gusty cross wind, had the bottom fall out 2 days ago and a ton of aft stick just caught it before touch down....learning never stops in this business, 65-70 KIAS would have been better on that approach.

What am I missing here? aft stick during a pending stall.........:eek:

I need help to understand this..........:eek:
 
here's our experience, your mileage may vary:
using AOA as primary approach aid results in quite low approach speeds with potential for very high sink rates in our case...
(7A, 180hp, 2blade c/s)

we aim for max 100kts mid downwind, and make sure prop is set to fine pitch latest now so no need to manipulate later/in case of go around.

abeam the numbers, cut throttle, and trim way up to a memorized position, wait for speed to decay, flaps 1 (approx. 10?) below 95kts, flaps 2 (approx 20?) below 87kts.

turning base with about 80kts. on base full flaps, pitch for 70kts, glidepath with throttle.

on final we use between 67kts (light) and 70kts (heavy) which is both above what the AOA system would suggest. if too high on the glide, we temporarily go back to 64/65 kts resulting in a instantly increasing sink rate. before the flare we increase back to 67-70kts in such a case, so as to start the flare from a stabilized and well known condition.

cut throttle early enough yet not too early (takes some practice) in order to neither float for too long nor "sink through and into the ground".
for safety's sake and assuming a long runway is available, start by cutting power late. arresting a high sink rate late in the flare requires brisk reaction and carries the risk of a bounce.

touchdown smoothly on mains only and keep the nose up until it gently drops around 40kts. in our case, the nosegear has some fore/aft shimmy in the region around 32kts, so once the nose is on the ground, we brake "through" the simmy zone in one application so the gear never gets a prolonged chance to resonate.

some readers might smile at the exact numbers... for one, our advanced efis has an awesome speedtape (way way better than the garmin g1000 i flew previously on a da40, it sucked so bad we always used the analog backup instrument!) and the rv-7a a very nice speed stability, so one can literally control speeds to the order of half a knot!
secondly, we both were trained to airline standards, which in some areas may be the other extreme of ideal for small airplanes but it certainly tought us to fly "by the numbers".
the advantage of it is, that almost every landing starts from a very similar condition, and because of that tends to be good and almost the same every time (touchdown zone, touchdown speed, etc...). small deviations are then much more easily recognized and corrected, since you have a lot of repeated experience on how it should look like.
think "safety from consistency".
now, this doesn't take any of the fun or challenge out of flying and besides our takeoffs and landings, the remainder of the flight we neither want to be repeats nor straight and level all the time ;-)

rgds, bernie
 
What am I missing here? aft stick during a pending stall.........:eek:

I need help to understand this..........:eek:

Perhaps the situation was not well stated.

Started the flare and instead of less sink rate, the airplane sunk big time. You can feel it when it happens.

Sometimes in a gusty cross wind the wind shifts, it can go from a quartering head wind to a quartering tail wind just like that and there is a loss of lift. The only thing that will prevent a hard prang-on is a quick increase in the angle of attack to save it. More power would help but there usually is not enough time that close to the runway.

It happens sometimes when the wind is restless.

Are you unconfused?
 
More power would help but there usually is not enough time that close to the runway.

With my constant speed prop (air brake),.... my rule is..............that I had better be real close to the runway at 65 kias, because the airspeed diminishes very quickly at that point. I'll either add a bit of power, or just be close to the runway from a steep power off descent. Otherwise, it will easily fall through the flare. It isn't like a Warrior!

And yup.............unlike some, I tend to catch my airspeed indicator out of the corner of my eye. I don't have an AOA, and figure I'd have to up the airspeed some for "seat of the pants" landings..........with eyes totally out of the cockpit.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Thanks guys!! Smooth air and high ceilings helped the other day. I did a bunch of slow flight and stalls. She's a gentle staller.

I am right on Van's numbers for the stall just under 50 kts so I have been slowing her down to about 65 kts on final. (Van recommends Vso x 1.4). Low winds, slower speeds, and a nose on the numbers attitude have helped me get just a little more cozy with her. My near term goal is to be able to fly into Oshkosh this year, my first ever Airventure, so I want to be as prepared as possible.
 
Tony, that's the ticket...practice, practice, practice.

You mentioned preparing for OSH. Do practice until you have a familiar standard approach, but then practice more while inserting one variation at a time...close-in downwind with a constant turn to the numbers, long draged-in final, aiming for the threshold then flying another 1000 feet just above the runway to a new spot...you get the idea. You can't expect to get a standard pattern at a large flyin.....never can tell what those crazy controllers might ask for ;)
 
BTW, I'd strongly reccomend not using 40 deg of flaps until you have a bunch of landings under your belt! Just hold the 30 and 85 over the #'s and slowly bleed the speed off with a little back pressure on your stick (over the runway). Then, as David said, .........."gentle flair carrying just a little power and let her settle down on the mains,,,,keep the nose wheel off as long as you can, then down gently...."


Hope this helps!

The thread is old but the topic still remains (at least for me)... I'm very new to my 7 and having trouble to land smoothly (no wheel landings). She hops basically everytime, sometimes a little bit, but sometimes so pronounced that you have to push power at the second hop to go around.

All landings have been done with 65 -70 KIAS on final and full 40° flaps (43° in my plane actually) but here Tommy suggests to use 30° instead. Will the RV7 touch the runway more gently?

i got the advise to use full flaps no matter what but i would like to give less flaps a try.
 
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Sounds like you are touching down with too much speed. Fly it above the runway as slow as it will go until the tail touches then a fraction of a second later the mains touch. Pin the stick back in your guts as by the time the mains touch, there should be not enough energy left for the wing to fly again. Don’t be frightened about using full flap. This will help improve the landing angle and your subsequent visibility. It will also improve the rate of deceleration at that critical touchdown moment.
Alternatively, go grab some time with Mike Sega or someone similar.
Tom
RV-7
 
The thread is old but the topic still remains (at least for me)... I'm very new to my 7 and having trouble to land smoothly (no wheel landings). She hops basically everytime, sometimes a little bit, but sometimes so pronounced that you have to push power at the second hop to go around.

All landings have been done with 65 -70 KIAS on final and full 40° flaps (43° in my plane actually) but here Tommy suggests to use 30° instead. Will the RV7 touch the runway more gently?

i got the advise to use full flaps no matter what but i would like to give less flaps a try.

My airport experiences a lot of cross winds and typically has rotors, creating mild up/down drafts over the runway. I really struggled with the full stall landing in these conditions (things got better when I stopped trying them in tough wind conditions and smoothly planted the tires with 3-5 MPH of reserve above stall) and the best advice that I got was to use 30* flaps instead of 40. It helped me a lot in the tough wind conditions and I don't think that I have used 40* more than a few times in the last 600 hours.

It is foolish to preach that you MUST use 40* of flaps. You should experiment with many different configuration settings and determine how each one affects your performance. I feel really bad for the guy that has never done a no flap landing and finds himself with a failed flap actuator.

Larry
 
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It is foolish to preach that you MUST use 40* of flaps. You should experiment with many different configuration settings and determine how each one affects your performance. I feel really bad for the guy that has never done a no flap landing and finds himself with a failed flap actuator.

Larry

Quoting this for emphasis. (disclaimer: I have one landing in an RV7. One. I don't know anything about landing an RV. Yet.)

But I do know a thing or two about landing an airplane with flaps. I teach a LOT of slow flight in both flap/no flap configurations before we start landings.

The first things I teach students when teaching them to land is power-off, no-flap landings. This teaches several things:

1) It makes the landing process uncomplicated to a newbie.
2) It teaches energy management
3) It teaches a student to fly a tight pattern where a power loss at any point in the pattern can result in a safe landing.

Once a student can consistently land without flaps, then we start adding in variables with flaps, with power, and build on the primary energy management lesson.

Didn't invent this technique, and wasn't a fan at first, but it does work.
 
The thread is old but the topic still remains (at least for me)... I'm very new to my 7 and having trouble to land smoothly (no wheel landings). She hops basically everytime, sometimes a little bit, but sometimes so pronounced that you have to push power at the second hop to go around.

All landings have been done with 65 -70 KIAS on final and full 40° flaps (43° in my plane actually) but here Tommy suggests to use 30° instead. Will the RV7 touch the runway more gently?

i got the advise to use full flaps no matter what but i would like to give less flaps a try.

Kay, I have only 130 hrs in my 7 and always had the challenge you describe. So, I recently focused on this very issue. I was always making 20 deg flap landings and that is fine if you touch a little faster, flatter and slowly for a wheel landing. I suspect you are intending a "3 point" landing. A bounce (not a skip) was always the result of dropping too fast, too far and at the right speed it drops the tail and results in a balloon at times. Speed allows that and it doesn't take much.

I have nearly always had a little hop on touchdown. A skip skip. I attribute that to the trailing gear and spinning up of the wheels. Lots of argument will ensue.

What I did: make sure to follow the Vans recommendations for abeam (~~80kts), base turn (75kt), and final speeds. I typically use 20deg initially (count method - 1-2-3-4-), establish 75kts to base turn, then depending on descent, will roll to final and go full flaps. This has greatly helped my touchdown visibility. I also put my head left against the plexi to maintain good perspective. A good stable descent for the short final section slowing to 60kts over the end. It is coming down fast so I wait until 5-8 feet to begin the flair and very slowly as it will bleed off speed and drop if the descent is not maintained, although slower. Then, the standard technique of keep-it-flying close to runway as it slows and touches down, keeping the stick back. This way your speed will be pretty low and the stall horn talking loudly.

Just to throw another issue in the mix, I have bifocal glasses and holding my head high and one eye would begin to cross the line. My far vision is pretty good, so now I remove my glasses to land, and that has helped in the runway height judgement.

I also did a lot of approaches to get the speeds correct, and sometimes added power at about 10 feet and climbed back again to practice that portions consistency again. Just do it when it is cool. :D

Good luck and practice consistency, this way you can make a known change and link it to the result.

BTW, the OP of this thread "headed west" as a result of inflight failure a few years back. RIP, Tony.
 
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All landings have been done with 65 -70 KIAS on final and full 40° flaps (43° in my plane actually) but here Tommy suggests to use 30° instead. Will the RV7 touch the runway more gently?

Be careful that your flaps aren’t extending too far. The leading edge of the flap can pop out from under the wing skin. Later during retraction, the popped out leading can cause significant damage.
 
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