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TAXI ETIQUETTE

avi8tor50

Well Known Member
Hi all. Had a "first" today while taxiing and wanted some input.
I was taxiing at an uncontrolled airport, specifically, I WAS moving, not stopped, going at a normal slow taxi speed. A Cessna had landed and just turned off the runway onto the short taxiway that existed between the runway and the parallel taxiway that I was on. He had stopped either at or just beyond the hold short line (could not tell which) and was just a short distance ahead of me and TO MY RIGHT. He was stopped and I was moving. I assumed that he was waiting for me to pass and then he would turn onto the main taxiway behind me. Anytime I have exited a runway onto a short taxiway that connects me to the main taxiway AT AN UNCONTROLLED field I have ALWAYS held short for any aircraft that was already moving on that taxiway regardless as to whether they were on my right or my left unless they were far away from me. As I passed him he "scolded" me stating that since he was on my right I should have stopped my taxi and allowed him to enter the taxiway AHEAD OF ME. It did not seem logical that I should come to a dead stop on the taxiway when I WAS ALREADY MOVING AND HE WAS STOPPED. Seemed like the courteous action would have been for him to wait until I had passed which is what I would have done and then entered the taxiway behind me. My thought was that I had the right of way on the taxiway since I was already moving and he was stopped. BUT... I am "getting old" and perhaps I need to review taxiing protocol at uncontrolled airports.
What do u think?
Sorry for such a long post.

Peter K
RV9A 750 hrs
 
You should of quipped back "did you skip your after landing checklist?" and got him really fired up. :D

On a more serious note I do believe he had the right of way but I also think he was being a royal prick. I have never understood people that don't yield the right of way when it makes sense to do so. Just the other day I was flying and spotted aircraft to my left converging. I may have had the right of way but I called him up and let him know I was giving him a turn to the south to avoid a situation. Sometimes it just makes sense...
 
You have the right away as you were established on a specific taxiway. Also he is transitioning from ?flight operations? to ?ground ops? and should give way to all traffic until he can merge in.
For continuity, control fields require stopping until communications is established with ground and taxi instructions received. Ground Control busy, we stop and wait. Uncontrolled..busy..we stop and wait.
I always assume though the other guy is not going to stop.

R
 
It is true that when two aircraft are converging, the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. But that's in the air. Is there such a regulation that applies on the ground that states that the one to the other's right has the right-of-way?
 
You have the right away as you were established on a specific taxiway. Also he is transitioning from ?flight operations? to ?ground ops? and should give way to all traffic until he can merge in.

Uh... there is nothing in the FAR/AIM that supports this statement.
 
At an uncontrolled airport, there is no right of way for somebody who just exited a runway. Landing aircraft clear the runway, hold short of the taxiway, and then wait for any other aircraft that are already on the taxiway. Of course, there's really no professional and courteous way to reply to somebody who demands that you live in their imaginary world. But I've always wanted to say "if you can find it in the FAR/AIM, I'll buy you a steak dinner." That eats up too much comm time on the radio though, so best to just wave and move along. :rolleyes:
 
I honestly cant think of a written rule covering your case, and arguing on the radio is discouraged by the AIM, but people thee days just seem more prone to chew others out, assuming that they are always correct, and everyone else is wrong. Nothing you can do about that....

One interesting thing I have observed about those stub taxiways - at some airports, in order to get the required “clear zone” distance from the centerline, the hold short line is almost at the edge of the parallel taxiway (it is this way at Carson City, NV - KCXP). So in order for an aircraft to actually fully clear the runway, they pretty much have to Impinge on the taxiway - which means they might as well pull out ahead of anyone already on the taxiway, or they are technically blocking the runway. To me, its common courtesy to not block the runway, so I give exiting traffic the right of way.

Situation and airport layout dependent....

Paul
 
At an uncontrolled airport, there is no right of way for somebody who just exited a runway. Landing aircraft clear the runway, hold short of the taxiway, and then wait for any other aircraft that are already on the taxiway.

This is the problem. What if you can?t clear the runway AND hold short of the taxiway. Most of the uncontrolled fields have small tie ins to the parallel taxiway. The aircraft on the taxiway should give way so the aircraft exiting can clear fully. A lot of guys think there clear even though the tail is hanging over the hold short line by 10 feet.

Imagine being the guy short final that has to go around because someone didn?t clear the runway because someone didn?t give way on taxiway. This is how it?s done at all the big boy airports
 
Taxi

That?s probably the same jerk CFI at my airport that has his students do their run up at the hold short line at the runway instead of the run up area, and when you ask him what he?s doing, he tells you to be patient with a student! Meanwhile you are roasting in the hot Florida sun under the bubble canopy.
 
This is the problem.
Imagine being the guy short final that has to go around because someone didn’t clear the runway because someone didn’t give way on taxiway. This is how it’s done at all the big boy airports

Not really. If you are so close to the preceding traffic that they haven't cleared (they own the runway until they exit), you can expect to go around. Period. I've been told to "give way" to a taxiing aircraft when I was holding short of the taxi way after landing (KLGB controlled field). The controllers will usually merge you in when they can.

-Marc
 
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I'm of similar mindset to Paul's. A pilot exiting the runway is in a potentially busy and higher workload phase than the pilot taxiing on the parallel. I'd lean towards giving way to the exiting pilot. It's a practice or technique similar to being told to hold for the exiting aircraft at a towered field (a pretty common occurrence).

I looked at AIM Section 3, part 4-3-20...which admittedly is discussing towered operations...and it says, in part: "In the absence of ATC instructions, the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding position markings associated with the landing runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area." It also says that once clear, pilots are expected to hold for further instructions. There is not much written about operations at non-towered fields, and nothing I could find on this specific topic. Applying similar logic to the situation however, when taxiing, if a landing aircraft is exiting the runway, I'd expect them to fully clear, which might impede me...so I'll give way. I would hope they'd plan to stop when clear, but I'd probably make a radio call to let them know I'm giving way. Then again, they might be turning towards me, causing a beak to beak situation, in which case they might suggest I continue and they'd hold for me. Collaborate to graduate.

I'd do this whether they were to my right or left. 91.113 describes the right of way for aircraft operating at nearly the same altitude (give way to aircraft on your right). I reckon you could say that is the case if both aircraft are on the ground, but this reg seems to be referring to aircraft in flight. Probably courteous to apply it to taxi operations, but the same reg also says this: "(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface." Is an exiting aircraft still in the landing phase? This may be one for the sea lawyers, but this still has me leaning towards giving way as the taxiing pilot. An exiting aircraft's potential for brake issues is another item that leans me that way.

That's just my technique, along with some positive radio work, if appropriate. Like Gash said, the other pilot is claiming right of way that is not really his, and I also concur that being snippy or bossy on the radio is lacking etiquette.

Just something for your consideration...each scenario is different, and there may be a time when getting outta the way might also be the best course of action.

I'm hoping to win that steak from Gash-man someday too! :D

Cheers,
Bob
 
Runway Hold Short Markings

I think this really depends on how the taxiway/runway hold short markings are placed. One thing I learned many years ago on my PPL Solo Long Cross Country is that some airports that have a short distance between the runway and parallel taxiway have the hold short lines on the cross taxiway so close to the parallel taxiway that you are technically not clear of the runway until you taxi past those lines and onto the parallel taxiway. In the case of my long cross country, I landed and turned off onto a cross taxiway and I stopped short of the "hold short" lines due to a twin turboprop commuter aircraft that was taxiing along the parallel taxiway. I told the tower that I was clear of the active and was admonished because I was technically not clear until I crossed the lines and was told to cross the lines then contact ground. This of course meant that I had to pull in front of the taxiing commuter. My home airport has the hold short lines spaced well back from the parallel taxiway so that you can clear them without entering the parallel taxiway. So my takeaway from this is that if the hold short lines are so close the the parallel taxiway that you literally have to be on that taxiway to be considered clear of the active runway, then technically the aircraft "clearing the runway" has the right-of-way over an aircraft that is taxiing along the parallel taxiway.

Skylor
 
+1 This is the technically correct answer. The OP stated the exiting aircraft was ?at, or a little over? the hold short line, meaning he had not cleared the runway and, technically, had the right of way over other aircraft operating on the surface. The OP should have stopped and allowed the landing aircraft room to fully exit (entire aircraft past the hold short line) the runway. It?s possible the exiting aircraft stopped prematurely because he saw another aircraft on the taxi way and was being careful. And he had good reason, apparently.
That said, common curtesy goes a long way, for both pilots.
 
Plenty or arrogant short man syndrome pilots world wide! Airmanship is optional these days!
Personally I would have given way to the driver exiting the RWY but his R/T was unesesary!
 
Not really. If you are so close to the preceding traffic that they haven't cleared (they own the runway until they exit), you can expect to go around. Period. I've been told to "give way" to a taxiing aircraft when I was holding short of the taxi way after landing (controlled field). The controllers will usually merge you in when they can.

-Marc

Marc

Again, holding short of the taxiway is different than holding short AND being clear of the runway behind you.

In your backyard at LAX, the most important guy is the one clearing the runway. Your not going to find a taxiway that a B777 can hold short of a parallel taxiway while being clear of the runway behind them. Exaggerated example, but translate it to CCB or AJO and it?s the same deal. The guy on the taxiway should be giving way
 
Stop and communicate

I have hundreds of landings on small uncontrolled airports and almost all do not have enough room to pull past line and not partly impede an aircraft taxing on main taxi way. I always stop and then call to ask the aircraft exiting the runway for intentions. 9 times out of 10 they are turning my way and ask me to continue on past if I can get by. Some of the time they will not be “technically” off the runway to allow me to pass. A lot depends on if there is landing traffic behind the guy exiting the runway.

Like all situations, the correct answer is based on lots of dynamic factors. I guess there is nothing in the AIM because it “depends”.

I have learned if any doubt on someone’s taxing intentions to stop my motion. Especially if it is due to landing traffic as they are preoccupied by landing. It is not like you are taxing 55. Stopping from taxi speed and then getting back to taxi speed is very minor inconvenience.
 
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Was at VGT last weekend and was pumping gas at the self serve island. 100 feet away, with the tail pointed directly at me, an Epic turboprop cranked up in his parking spot. He apparently decided to do his run-up in the chocks as we were soon peppered with small pebbles and ramp dust. I cranked up and taxied past while he was just finishing up his process. It was VERY hard to restrain myself on the radio, but I did.

And I still regret it
 
Marc

Again, holding short of the taxiway is different than holding short AND being clear of the runway behind you.

In your backyard at LAX, the most important guy is the one clearing the runway. Your not going to find a taxiway that a B777 can hold short of a parallel taxiway while being clear of the runway behind them. Exaggerated example, but translate it to CCB or AJO and it?s the same deal. The guy on the taxiway should be giving way

This is not a new subject in the world of aviation: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/63520-exiting-runway-right-way-over-taxi.html

In light of the lack of concise direction from the FAA, I maintain that "common sense" prevails, and to me that means that I should not pull in front of a taxiing a/c on a parallel taxi way. If it means that I hold operations on an active runway for a few moments, so be it. No one should be landing that close behind me that a short wait creates a hazard. It's a judgement call but that's how I see it.

-Marc
 
Marc,

Could you please reference for me the reg that basically says "they own the runway until they exit" for me. Thanks
 
Thanks to everyone who replied! The way our field is laid out when u exit the runway you have plenty of room on the "stub taxiway" to be physically clear of the active runway. I am not sure, without actually getting out there and placing my aircraft beyond the hold short lines whether or not I would be protruding onto the parallel taxiway.
I did not appreciate the one comment that suggested that the pilot who had exited the runway and stopped had good reason to do so, the intimation being that I was a reckless type of pilot who had no situational awareness. I was watching him and should he have started any movement toward the taxiway I would have immediately stopped (as I stated I was taxiing at a slow speed). In addition, had he gotten on the radio and asked if I could stop so he could have cleared the runway I would have done so. FYI At our field my experience is that most pilots who exit the runway onto the "stub taxiway" will hold just short of entering the taxiway if an aircraft is already taxiing on the parallel taxiway close to them.
This was a learning experience for me. At any CONTROLLED airport that I have gone to I have ALWAYS been instructed to hold short of the taxiway after I landed if another aircraft was already on that taxiway. I think I may have carried that procedure over to the UNCONTROLLED setting which, according to what most of you have said, was INCORRECT. I will adjust my taxi procedure accordingly.
Finally, and most importantly I think, most pilots display consideration and courtesy when operating at uncontrolled fields. Getting on the CTAF to rebuke a pilot publicly IMHO displays a profound lack of class and potentially dangerous behavior as it ties up the frequency.

Thanks again to all who commented.
 
Marc,

Could you please reference for me the reg that basically says "they own the runway until they exit" for me. Thanks

It's a figure of speech but:

91.113 (g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach.//

-Marc
 
That?s probably the same jerk CFI at my airport that has his students do their run up at the hold short line at the runway instead of the run up area, and when you ask him what he?s doing, he tells you to be patient with a student! Meanwhile you are roasting in the hot Florida sun under the bubble canopy.

Wait a minute, this has to be the same DE CFI guy who teaches his students at MBT to do run ups with his prop wash directed right at the hangars or the fuel pumps. Brilliant!

I?ve said it before, the same jerks we see on the highway are slowly invading our ranks. No courtesy, no respect for anyone but themselves, no common sense.

777 exiting, no problem, I?ll give way (law of gross tonnage).
Not enough room to clear the runway at the HS, I?ll give way.
If I see an airplane on final and I?m not past the taxiway, I?ll pick up the pace to get past the intersection and give them room to exit.
If I clear the runway past the HS and I see crossing traffic on the taxiway, I?ll wait if there?s room.
If I?ve got nose position ahead of you, I?m going.
?Tailpipe? courtesy, always.
If I?m not done with my preflight checklist and someone is behind me, I?ll wave them by.
Students, I?ll always cut them a break.

Common sense is not so common these days.
 
Uh... there is nothing in the FAR/AIM that supports this statement.

No, and there is nothing in the FAR/AIM that you must land right side up.
This discussion is about how do you support your actions IF an incident happens ( clip wings). What do you think the FAA Inspector would say after you stated ?there?s nothing in the FAR / AIM about right of way on an uncontrolled field?...
?Huh...what do you do after landing at a controlled field Bob??
He?s now has cause to dig further into your ?Pilot Judgement? with scenario
questions that will lead to a 609 ride.
As far as clearing the runway....FAA Certified GA airport meet certain standards, one of which is the spacing of taxiways with runways. I have yet to see one where a GA aircraft could not clear the runway and remain clear of the parallel. We?re talking little airplanes here, not 747s.
Meanwhile, the other guy saids, ?Sir, I cleared the runway and stopped. After a blue Cessna passed, I proceeded on taxiway H to the ramp. As I was passing C , this guy in a RV exit the runway without stopping, yelling on the radio. I swerved hoping to avoid him. We contact wingtips and here we are.?
FAA..? OK John, we?re done. You?re good to go. Thank you.?
Yeh...Uncontrolled Field doesn?t mean Experimental Flying, anything goes.
Pilot Judgement is a broad brush...with a lot of bristols to keep straight.
You must support every action you do, if asked, or you?re toast.
?Reckless Operation of Aircraft?...oh boy...enjoy your boat! :eek:

R
 
Taxiway fun

I teach new student pilots, those doing recurrent, Flight Reviews, IPCs and kids learning to merge onto freeways: Don’t be ambiguous.

If the aircraft exiting the runway needed to pull forward to get the tail completely clear of the runway hold short line or, in the absence of a line, clear enough to allow the runway to be usable, and the aircraft was out over the parallel taxiway then so be it.

The pilot on the parallel would have to give way.

If the pilot of a small aircraft exits a runway and can fit past the hold short line and prior to the taxi way then it’s sometimes appropriate to turn 45 degrees to clear both. This takes SA and knowing ones aircraft.

If the pilot clearing the runway stops to accomplish a 10 second after landing checklist and there’s plenty of room then it might be appropriate to allow the pilot still moving to pass.

Not having been there, the technically correct answer is “it depends.”
 
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This isn't responsive to the original question, but I have a story. Asheville has a new runway under construction specifically because there wasn't enough room between the runway and the parallel taxiway. It was impossible for an aircraft to "clear" the runway without its nose sticking out into the parallel taxiway. So they've spent millions of dollars moving the old runway 50' (Your tax dollars at work.) During construction - which has gone on for four years now - the only ways onto and off of the temporary runway is at each end of a 7.500' runway. Needless to say, that slowed things down to a crawl.

Last week, they managed to open up an intermediate taxiway at mid field. After suffering years of long landings and delayed takeoffs, I was ecstatic to see that they finally completed a mid-field taxiway. My joy was short lived, however, because it actually made the traffic flow situation worse. Unbelievably, they the geniuses running that boondoggle closed the taxiway at the departure end so the airlines had to ingress the runway mid-field then back-taxi down to the departure end. Us little guys could take off with 3,250' remaining, but even the C-172s were back-taxiing about 1,000'...that is, when they could get take-off clearance. Yesterday there were a bunch of pudknockers (my affectionate term for student pilots) in the pattern doing touch and goes, plus arriving traffic. I must have been third in line, holding for takeoff for about 20 minutes. Then...Blue Streak pulled out of the terminal and was queuing up to get in line behind me. Not being in a hurry, I took pity on the guy and asked Ground if I could make a U-turn and let the paying customer slip in front of me. There was a long pause - I guess nobody had ever requested that before - but he approved. I taxied about 200' back up the parallel taxiway and let Blue Streak take my place in line. Both of us still had to wait another ten minutes for the pudknockers, but I was cleared for takeoff as Blue Streak was back-taxiing. I broke ground with probably 1,000' to spare :cool: Most of the time, chivalry is still alive...
 
FWIW, at non-towered fields, I will allow aircraft exiting a runway to continue onto the parallel taxiway ahead of me so that the runway exit (stub taxiway) is not blocked for the next arrival.

Not a rule that I'm aware of, just my style.

YMMV,

George
 
I think it was all covered here, but uncontrolled or on-towered is see and be seen... don't assume. Here is a video to prove that.

https://youtu.be/DbZqH6HQ0vQ

At large towered airports with tower and ground with airline traffic, I still have seen some "conflicts" between planes exiting runway and aircraft on taxiway/ramp. Like riding a motorcycle, you might have the right away or clearance but you expect and prepare for others to pull in-front of you.
 
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When exiting a Rwy after landing dont 'assume' it's safe to do so, if you find yourself unable to completly exit due another A/C not safely clear for whatever reason then that Rwy is effectively still occupied if you haven't cleared the gable markers!!
 
When exiting a Rwy after landing dont 'assume' it's safe to do so, if you find yourself unable to completly exit due another A/C not safely clear for whatever reason then that Rwy is effectively still occupied if you haven't cleared the gable markers!!

What the heck are "gable markers" ?
 
When exiting a Rwy after landing dont 'assume' it's safe to do so, if you find yourself unable to completly exit due another A/C not safely clear for whatever reason then that Rwy is effectively still occupied if you haven't cleared the gable markers!!

What the heck are "gable markers" ?


Googling around a bit, found a ref to the Aussie Civil Aviation Safety Authority doc that describes them as triangles 3 meters long, .9 meters wide, .5 meters high. Could not find a doc that said where they are placed. Given Capt (quoted poster) is from OZ, perhaps they are similar to our hold short lines. Learned a new bar bet factoid today! :D

Nasty, the steak dinner is on me next time. I think you bought all the drinks last time I saw you in Fort Lauderdale!

Deal Brudda! Back in FLL next month on Tuesdays...maybe I'll see ya there again! ;)

Cheers,
Bob
 
Googling around a bit, found a ref to the Aussie Civil Aviation Safety Authority doc that describes them as triangles 3 meters long, .9 meters wide, .5 meters high. Could not find a doc that said where they are placed. Given Capt (quoted poster) is from OZ, perhaps they are similar to our hold short lines. Learned a new bar bet factoid today! :D
You yanks don't have Gable Markers? What defines the RWS over there then? Typically, the edge gables are aligned with any hold-short lines, but not always....

As for how they're placed, you can check out the Manual of Standards PDF that covers them if you click here...
 
Oh I guess we better educate our dear friends on the other side of the Pacific who drive on the wrong side of the road, measure in imperial and still use old MPH what Gable Markers are!:D
Gable markets (where used) delineate the physical dimension/s of the RWS:)
You guys have gotta get with the program...lololol
 
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Odd, we have gable markers in Canada. The airport where I grew up had them on both sides of the runway for years, until they fell into disrepair. They were replaced with orange traffic cones, which were less visible... But also more forgiving to an airplane that strayed off the centerline...
 
You yanks don't have Gable Markers? What defines the RWS over there then? Typically, the edge gables are aligned with any hold-short lines, but not always....

As for how they're placed, you can check out the Manual of Standards PDF that covers them if you click here...

Oh I guess we better educate our dear friends on the other side of the Pacific who drive on the wrong side of the road, measure in imperial and still use old MPH what Gable Markers are!:D
Gable markets (where used) delineate the physical dimension/s of the RWS:)
You guys have gotta get with the program...lololol

Odd, we have gable markers in Canada. The airport where I grew up had them on both sides of the runway for years, until they fell into disrepair. They were replaced with orange traffic cones, which were less visible... But also more forgiving to an airplane that strayed off the centerline...

KRviator...my computer didn't want me to open that link without changing permissions, but I did look at a Transport Canada AIM to try to figure out what RWS is (Runway Strip?). Our airport markings are delineated in our AIM...its pretty extensive...and good fodder for pilot certificate oral exams. ;)

Capt...yes, we drive on the "right" side of the road (literally); I'll give ya the metric thing...we can't figure out its the same basic 10's idea as our money; and many of us only use mph when air racing (sounds better/faster). But we did drop one u from colourful, so we are efficient in our spelling, if nothing else. :p

Snowflake...gable markers in disrepair would likely be re-purposed (yeah, that's what we'll call it ;) ) by pilots and turned into chocks here...and orange cones would probably be absconded by the weekend sports car club at my field for their rallies. Nothing is sacred to us Colonists...but as a Canuck, you know that too! :p

Oh, and Runway Strip...hmmmm...sounds like a bar across from an airport...wait, I better not go there! :D

Cheers,
Bob
 
You all haven't lived until you operate at a private airport where one runway and the taxiway is shared by cars, people on bikes, planes, corporate jets, heavy twins, gliders and the occasional race car that gets permission to race down the runway.
Oh yeah, and then there's the Cirrus training center planes that block everything while they do their 20 minute run ups all over the place and can't seem to fly the pattern but opt for the 10 mile straight in approach most of the time.
In general, common courtesy is becoming a thing of the past.
 
Was flying yesterday and after landing checked out how much room I had after clearing the HS marker. I would say I had about 10 feet or more behind my tail to the HS marker and my nose did NOT extend beyond the edge of the taxiway.
I would think that it would NOT be an issue for a Cessna 150 or 172 to clear the HS without extending onto the taxiway. Of course this is at my field. I guess it could be different somewhere else.
 
You yanks don't have Gable Markers? What defines the RWS over there then? Typically, the edge gables are aligned with any hold-short lines, but not always....

As for how they're placed, you can check out the Manual of Standards PDF that covers them if you click here...


https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap2_section_3.html

We have yellow lines, solid and dashed on the hold side on the taxiway. All Americans have 20/15 X-ray vision and can see this easily. Also signage side of the taxiway notes the runway (red with white letters) you are approaching and taxiway (black with yellow letters) you are on. If sign is direction to taxiway yellow black letters.

At large airports with airline traffic we have embedded lights in the taxiway for low Vis Ops and wig wag lights (RED) on each side before entering the runway.

We yanks have it covered. BTW Yanks is an insult to those who live in the South, but we know what you mean Aussie. Ha ha.
 
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Yeah we thieves and beggars from the mother country (UK) tend to forget about your little civil war:);)
 
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