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EarthX Battery Faults: Seen any?

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Moderator, Asst. Line Boy
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For the EarthX users:

As you know, the EarthX battery features a wire lead that can connect to a panel-mounted warning light to remotely notify the pilot of internal battery faults. I've got almost 100 hours on my EarthX and I absolutely love it. However, I did not mount a cockpit light for the battery.

My question: Have any of you EarthX users experienced any internal faults? I haven't, that I know of. If there's any sort of trend, I'd like to know about it: It'll give me a good reason to run a wire and mount a battery warning light.
 
I have the ETX 900 in my rocket and am very happy so far. I did install the light as a precaution and have seen nothing so far, I probably have around 25 hours on the battery. I will admit I am not 100 percent confident in this new technology and am watching it carefully but so far so good. This little battery spins the 80 inch propeller on my IO540 like the spark plugs have been left out. Unreal.
Ryan
 
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I bought one to "test" for a while in motorcycle. It's too small to have the fault light hookup, but I must tell you, the battery is the smallest one they make, super light and cranks like a dream. I probably have enough room in my motorcycle's little battery box to store a tool kit, next to this thing!
 
Question

What charger are you using for these batteries?
With the built in regulator do you use a standard automotive charger?
I am looking at replacing my 3.5 year old odyssey, which has it's own special charger..
 
BruceEicher said:
What charger are you using for these batteries?
With the built in regulator do you use a standard automotive charger?
I am looking at replacing my 3.5 year old odyssey, which has it's own special charger..
Click to expand...

I added the one Earth X calls for to my order. They sell them too. I'm not sure that it's not something you couldn't pickup yourself, but you'd have to know (for sure) that it meets their criteria for a trickle charger. By ordering theirs, I was assured of that and the price seemed in line with other chargers.
 
Bruce,
You really need to buy the special LiFePO charger that EarthX sells. Reason: the EarthX lithium iron phosphate battery features two independent battery controller circuit cards, and their charger communicates with these controllers to optimally charge the battery. If you discharge the battery fully, the battery is ruined. Thus, the internal controllers disable the battery when it's about 95% discharged to save the battery. You can't simply hook up any old charger: you need the EarthX charger, which interfaces with the controller to reactivate the battery, allowing it to accept a recharge.

http://earthxmotorsports.com/shop/optimate-lithium-battery-charger-lifepo4

Big picture: I have this charger, but have not needed it (yet). If I leave the master on, I'll be glad I have it. I take it with me on every XC flight.
 
so i guess i have to ask why you need a charger if the lipo holds its charge for so long.
different chemistry but i used to keep my 625 on a maintainer. odessey said i needed a special charger and also their batteries held a charge for months. since i fly every week or 10 days i just stopped the charging.
even in the winter if you fly every 2 weeks odessey says their battery keeps its charge so why bother? i can see it with old technology batteries that you can measure the voltage drop almost daily.
 
Bob,
You are right. You don't have to keep the EarthX battery on a battery charger for charge tending. It keeps its voltage.

You need the EarthX charger if you accidentally run the battery down to almost fully discharged. The battery's internal manager will disconnect the battery when 95% discharged, saving it from ruin. You can't reengage and recharge the battery with just any old battery charger: only the EarthX charger will connect/communicate with the battery manager to reengage it for charging.
 
Did it...

Placed my order for the ETX680, "Van's Clone" battery box, Optimate 5 amp charger, and the LED monitor.

So I am all in with both feet.

The Battery is on Back Order till 6-13-16.

Kathy, can you see that I receive my order ASAP? I would love to install before my July 4th weekend trip. ;)

Thank you all for your help!
 
Hi Bruce,

Sorry, I didn't see this post until today. Of course we will get it to you ASAP and you will have for your July 4th trip! Thank you for your business, we do appreciate it!

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
We did have one chance to see the fault indicator in action, but it wasn't the battery's fault - it was a combination of too many people working on the Tundra's EFIS and running the battery down. The fault indicator light came on when the Skyview went dark, and we were able to charge the EarthX using the charger they recommend - it came back fine and has been doing well ever since. It was really nice having the fault indicator to let us know what was going on, and that it wasn't "hard" failed.

Paul
 
I have a question about the light. I am coming from this as someone who doesnt' have the battery. What 'fault' does the light report on and what action in-flight would you take? Would this be a "get on the ground ASAP" kind of light or a "It'll wait until you get back to your hangar" type?
 
LED Light

Lemmingman said:
I have a question about the light. I am coming from this as someone who doesnt' have the battery. What 'fault' does the light report on and what action in-flight would you take? Would this be a "get on the ground ASAP" kind of light or a "It'll wait until you get back to your hangar" type?
Click to expand...

Hi Gil,

We do have a full description of the fault light and it's indications in the manual on the website:

http://earthxmotorsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ETX_Manual_111017_M.pdf

But the situation depends on when the light comes on if it is a reason for alarm or not.

For example, the most common light is the flashing light which can indicate low voltage or a weak cell. If the light comes on while you have been doing diagnostics in the hangar, that would mean it is time to charge the battery as it is being drained to the point that the "light" will let you know you need to charge it.

Or, you accidentally left something on (master) and the battery was drained, you would have the flashing light to tell you that you need to charge the battery before flight. If the battery is fully charged, 13.3V- 14.6V but you have a flashing light, then this would be an indication of a weak or defective cell and you should not fly with it and we will cover this under warranty.

The flashing light can also come on if an over voltage situation. This would happen while on a faulty charger, or if during flight, it could be because the alternator is putting out too much voltage and is faulty. You should also have an indicator for this situation on your alternator. This would mean time to land as you can damage many things on your aircraft at high voltages.

If the light is solid this would indicate a component on the BMS board is detected to be defective or not working and you are on the back up or redundant circuit board. This would be covered under warranty and is not an emergency situation.

There are so many scenarios it is impossible to list them.

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
Nice Service Kathy!

It's good to see your quick response times to the inquiries about Earth X above. It speaks well to the level of customer service you provide, which I can attest to as well. Will you guys be at Airventure this year?
 
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ppilotmike said:
It's good to see your quick response times to the inquiries about Earth X above. It speaks well to the level of customer service you provide, which I can attribute to as well. Will you guys be at Airventure this year?
Click to expand...

Yes, we will. We will be located in Hangar C, booth number 3108, same place as last year. :p

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
EarthX shells

Without trying to overly debate "why", I have chosen to place two EarthX batteries in my all electric/glass aircraft. Two separate busses, batteries and alternators.

Also not wanting to upset the CG too much, I decided to place two ETX1200 batteries. EarthX is just now reconfiguring all models to have the same physical size, just different interiors. I am told they plan to have them ready for Oshkosh.

Two ETX1200's weigh almost exactly the same as one PC680, so that fits the bill. Just have to modify the battery hold area. To that end, EarthX sold me two of the new size empty shells. Will help fabrication a lot to have the actual shells on hand. A total of $20, can't complain with that. They were very amenable to help out, and very prompt with communication.

Great customer service, and in a couple of years when I am ready to crank up, I can buy new fresh batteries that didn't sit dormant for a couple years (and use up the 2 year warranty). Sure, things could change between now and then, but it's the best I can come up with at this time.

-Cliff

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0w8F-noHXuvNlNmaUhydnV3LVZOZEVEU1VCZzUyZUJYckJn/view?usp=sharing
 
Kathy,

I intend to upgrade my RV-7A from the Odyssey battery to Earth-X LiPo sometime soon, I will also be getting the Earth-X battery box and the recommended charger... Question: I have Garmin's dual G3X legacy (non-touch) displays that each take about 20 minutes (40 minutes total) to update the databases each month. With the Odyssey battery I have been connecting their charger to my battery for the entire 40ish minutes while the updates are loading. This procedure has kept my battery properly charged as necessary... When I switch to the Earth-X battery, should I expect to follow the same procedure and connect the Earth-X charger to my Earth-X battery for the duration (40 minutes) that the databases are updating?? Or do you recommend a different procedure? Please advise.

Thank you.

Victor
 
You could also use the light lead to power a solid state relay to ground. This will allow a AFS 5600/5500 to display a battery problem.
 
Fault discrete output?

Update 09/22/2016. The questions below have been answered. Download the newest owners manual from EarthX's website for corrected and clearer directions and expanded information on the fault sensor system.


How would I wire up the Earth X battery fault discrete output to the Skyview System? Is it as simple as connecting the battery fault wire to a general purpose discrete input on the EMS module?
Will the Skyview show the two fault modes "Flashing" and "Solid"
How would I test the system?

Here are the two instructions...

ieph5g.png


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EarthX and lead-acid

I just picked up an EXT980 at Oshkosh and am eager to install it. However I ran into one small issue that others may want to consider. I have dual Lightspeed ignitions, and therefore installed a small 5 ah lead-acid battery to provide backup power if needed (per Lightspeed's drawing). The backup battery is charged in parallel with the main battery during normal operations, and can power one ignition independently in an emergency.

What I hadn't considered is that you're not supposed to charge these two different battery chemistries in parallel; according to EarthX this will damage the lithium battery. This would be an concern as well for anyone who is using a small lead-acid battery to back up an EFIS or other avionics.

It looks like I'll need to install a second small lithium battery for the ignition backup. I'm curious if others have already done this, and if so which battery they used?

This is not a fault of the battery obviously, its just a design consideration. Customer support from EarthX has been superb; they've answered multiple emails on a Saturday (which I certainly didn't expect).
 
EarthEx dead battery

I attended the lithium battery forum at Oshkosh, the chief engineer from EarthEx was the presenter. He said:
-EarthEx batteries lose about 2% of their charge per month when inactive, so there is no need to use a battery maintainer if you fly at least once every two months. (Make sure you don't have clock, or other draw that bypasses master solenoid)
-if the BMS shuts down the battery to protect it from dropping below 5 volts, the reason a regular (modern) charger won't work is because these chargers must sense residual voltage before they will start charging. Since the BMS doesn't allow residual voltage, a normal charger can't start. A simple solution is to hook up a normal charger, then jump the EarthEx with a car battery, which gets the charging process started.
- don't use a battery charger with de-sulphating feature, these will damage an EarthEx if left on long term
-charge EarthEx batteries between 14.2 and 14.4 volts for maximum life

I am planning to buy an EarthEx when my 5 year old Odessy PC680 shows signs of weakness. (I never use a charger on it, and fly regularly)

Jay
 
Back to the original posted question...YES.

Yes, I had a fault flying Thursday, about 30 hours, fifteen flights on new battery.

I have the battery fault wire hooked up to my Skyview, see my post number 22 on this thread for my hookup.

The battery has been cranking and acting as advertised until; during a short flight Skyview announced an EMS ground fault, then the battery light pulsed from green to red indicating a charging or cell balance issue. I cycled my main and the warning went away for a few minutes only.

I had dinner waiting so I landed and will return to the hangar tomorrow to check things out.
I have EarthX's deluxe charger/tested/repair/balancer so the battery will get a complete recycle and be just fine.
Stay tuned for updates.

You can see more of my install and report here; http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=1091484#post1091484

UPDATE 09/19/2016
I ran the charger/balancer two more times, each time with all green lights = healthy battery...BUT I flew the plane only to have the warning come on as soon as the battery stopped drawing more than 2 amps. I stayed in contact with EarthX...I also switched the fault monitor from my Skyview to EarthX's LED to eliminate one possible cause but still same results.
EarthX sent me a new battery, I installed it today with the fault wire back to my Skyview EMS, flew one hour with no faults.
I will ship the old battery back, and may hear why the fault warning.
The EarthX battery, my starter, my alternator all performed as they should throughout all this. Without the fault monitor hooked up I would not have known any problem, including the charger/tester/balancer reporting all well.
EarthX also updated the owner's manual to give better instructions on wiring to EFIS systems including a change to Dynon, plus more information on why the fault warning might come on. Visit their website...
I will report more if anything changes but I hope for fast starts and flying light!
Thanks Kathy and EarthX!
 
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Alan Carroll said:
I just picked up an EXT980 at Oshkosh and am eager to install it. However I ran into one small issue that others may want to consider. I have dual Lightspeed ignitions, and therefore installed a small 5 ah lead-acid battery to provide backup power if needed (per Lightspeed's drawing). The backup battery is charged in parallel with the main battery during normal operations, and can power one ignition independently in an emergency.

What I hadn't considered is that you're not supposed to charge these two different battery chemistries in parallel; according to EarthX this will damage the lithium battery. This would be an concern as well for anyone who is using a small lead-acid battery to back up an EFIS or other avionics.

It looks like I'll need to install a second small lithium battery for the ignition backup. I'm curious if others have already done this, and if so which battery they used?

This is not a fault of the battery obviously, its just a design consideration. Customer support from EarthX has been superb; they've answered multiple emails on a Saturday (which I certainly didn't expect).
Click to expand...

My 5AH back-up will hold a full charge for well over a year..... It does not need to be charged from the aircraft power source and is only there for the lightspeed ignition.
 
Different chemistries in parallel?

I have a similar question - what I want to know is: is it bad to charge them in parallel or to discharge them in parallel or are both conditions somehow bad? If they both charge just fine at 14.4 volts, what's the problem there? The way I read their literature, it was a concern that the lead acid battery would suck the lithium battery down. That would only happen with the alternator out, right? So, if they have separate contactors, and you don't leave them paralleled during battery only ops, is there really a problem?

If EarthX agrees with my premise, Alan, you could wire your lead acid battery to the ignition, maybe through a diode or a separate Emerg Ign switch to prevent sucking down the lithium battery, provided you have a way to separate the Pb battery from the main bus when the alternator is out. Call their tech support and let us know what you find out.

Ed


Alan Carroll said:
I just picked up an EXT980 at Oshkosh and am eager to install it. However I ran into one small issue that others may want to consider. I have dual Lightspeed ignitions, and therefore installed a small 5 ah lead-acid battery to provide backup power if needed (per Lightspeed's drawing). The backup battery is charged in parallel with the main battery during normal operations, and can power one ignition independently in an emergency.

What I hadn't considered is that you're not supposed to charge these two different battery chemistries in parallel; according to EarthX this will damage the lithium battery. This would be an concern as well for anyone who is using a small lead-acid battery to back up an EFIS or other avionics.

It looks like I'll need to install a second small lithium battery for the ignition backup. I'm curious if others have already done this, and if so which battery they used?

This is not a fault of the battery obviously, its just a design consideration. Customer support from EarthX has been superb; they've answered multiple emails on a Saturday (which I certainly didn't expect).
Click to expand...
 
gasman said:
My 5AH back-up will hold a full charge for well over a year..... It does not need to be charged from the aircraft power source and is only there for the lightspeed ignition.
Click to expand...

Good point. I think this is the solution for me as well.
 
gasman said:
My 5AH back-up will hold a full charge for well over a year..... It does not need to be charged from the aircraft power source and is only there for the lightspeed ignition.
Click to expand...

I have to ask what kind of battery will hold a full charge for a year and will you bet your life on it?
 
Bicyclops said:
I have a similar question - what I want to know is: is it bad to charge them in parallel or to discharge them in parallel or are both conditions somehow bad? If they both charge just fine at 14.4 volts, what's the problem there? The way I read their literature, it was a concern that the lead acid battery would suck the lithium battery down. That would only happen with the alternator out, right? So, if they have separate contactors, and you don't leave them paralleled during battery only ops, is there really a problem?

If EarthX agrees with my premise, Alan, you could wire your lead acid battery to the ignition, maybe through a diode or a separate Emerg Ign switch to prevent sucking down the lithium battery, provided you have a way to separate the Pb battery from the main bus when the alternator is out. Call their tech support and let us know what you find out.

Ed
Click to expand...

My understanding is that the problem relates specifically to charging, due to the fact the the two battery chemistries have different electrical potentials (voltage). I didn't get a detailed explanation beyond what is on the web site however. In my present configuration there would not be an issue during discharge because in the event of an alternator failure I can isolate the two batteries from each other.
 
Bicyclops said:
I have a similar question - what I want to know is: is it bad to charge them in parallel or to discharge them in parallel or are both conditions somehow bad? If they both charge just fine at 14.4 volts, what's the problem there? The way I read their literature, it was a concern that the lead acid battery would suck the lithium battery down. That would only happen with the alternator out, right? So, if they have separate contactors, and you don't leave them paralleled during battery only ops, is there really a problem?

Ed
Click to expand...

For the charging situation. If the alternator is providing a higher voltage than either of the battery terminal voltages, current will only flow from the alternator to the batteries, not between the batteries. Current flow to each battery will be a function of the battery internal resistance and battery internal voltage. Here Terminal voltage = battery internal voltage - (battery internal resistance x current).

For discharge, if you don't have a failed battery any load will be a more attractive current path than between the batteries. Each battery's internal resistance will, typically, be higher than any load. How much of the current load is carried by each battery will be a function of battery internal voltage and battery internal resistance. It is conceivable that one battery will carry all the load until it's internal voltage minus internal resistance voltage drop exceeds that of the other batteries terminal voltage. At that point the other battery will pick up a proportional amount of load.

Warning - if you have a failed battery (dead cell, internal short, etc.) the above does not apply. This is where having a master solenoid for each battery to provide fault isolation comes into the design.

Please note that this is a cursory explanation. Any system design should look beyond this to examine what happens when something goes wrong, a component fails, etc. As example, for those using small LI batteries for EI back up I recommend isolation diodes to make sure the backup battery only feeds the EI if you loose the rest of the system. I also have isolation diodes on the output of my backup alternator, not for battery charge concerns but to make sure the backup alternator is not feeding into whatever fault caused the primary alternator to fail.

Carl
 
Carl Froehlich said:
For the charging situation. If the alternator is providing a higher voltage than either of the battery terminal voltages, current will only flow from the alternator to the batteries, not between the batteries. Current flow to each battery will be a function of the battery internal resistance and battery internal voltage. Here Terminal voltage = battery internal voltage - (battery internal resistance x current).
Click to expand...

Carl,

Possibly what EarthX was getting at is that with the alternator off the the lithium battery would discharge to the lead acid battery, trying to even out the voltage difference? (unless you disconnect them from each other).
 
Blanket prohibition

That's what I get out of it Alan. Carl, what you said makes perfect sense and is pretty much the way I have it figured. It's just that they say, in RED CAPS, that you can't wire them in series or parallel. I get series - that would definitely be a problem. I just can't see why parallel for charging is trouble if you isolate the batteries during discharge. Manufacturers - can't live with 'em. :)

I've got 2 lightspeeds, each wired to a PC680 (I've only bought one of them, so far - so I could buy the lithium before I fly it) through a fusible link. Each battery has it's own contactor. I figure that, if the flashing yellow light tells me the alternator is gone, I'll switch one of the batteries to the E-bus alternate feed and open both contactors. If I turn off my MFD, I'll be pulling about 4.5a from batt 1 and 1.5a from batt 2 (or I could even just run on the one ignition and save the second battery for later). When the battery in use is about 10 volts, I'll switch the second one to the E-bus and turn off the first one, which, in theory, will still carry the ignition for a while more. I should be able to get at least 5 hours of runtime, maybe considerably more.

I don't see where it matters if one of them is Lithium. The ETX 900 would run longer than a 680 and that would be the main reason to do the lithium, that and added lightness. The difference in cost is nearly $350 and that's a good chunk of an SD-8 backup alternator. I'll probably wait to buy that second battery til after I do my weight and balance.

Ed

Alan Carroll said:
Carl,

Possibly what EarthX was getting at is that with the alternator off the the lithium battery would discharge to the lead acid battery, trying to even out the voltage difference? (unless you disconnect them from each other).
Click to expand...
 
Bicyclops said:
That's what I get out of it Alan. Carl, what you said makes perfect sense and is pretty much the way I have it figured. It's just that they say, in RED CAPS, that you can't wire them in series or parallel. I get series - that would definitely be a problem. I just can't see why parallel for charging is trouble if you isolate the batteries during discharge. Manufacturers - can't live with 'em. :)

I've got 2 lightspeeds, each wired to a PC680 (I've only bought one of them, so far - so I could buy the lithium before I fly it) through a fusible link. Each battery has it's own contactor. I figure that, if the flashing yellow light tells me the alternator is gone, I'll switch one of the batteries to the E-bus alternate feed and open both contactors. If I turn off my MFD, I'll be pulling about 4.5a from batt 1 and 1.5a from batt 2 (or I could even just run on the one ignition and save the second battery for later). When the battery in use is about 10 volts, I'll switch the second one to the E-bus and turn off the first one, which, in theory, will still carry the ignition for a while more. I should be able to get at least 5 hours of runtime, maybe considerably more.

I don't see where it matters if one of them is Lithium. The ETX 900 would run longer than a 680 and that would be the main reason to do the lithium, that and added lightness. The difference in cost is nearly $350 and that's a good chunk of an SD-8 backup alternator. I'll probably wait to buy that second battery til after I do my weight and balance.

Ed
Click to expand...

If you want another opinion, stay with the two PC-680 battery option. Send me your email and I'll provide a power distribution design or two that you might find of value.

Carl
 
Update on fault....

Yes, I had a fault...see my earlier post

UPDATE 09/19/2016
I ran the charger/balancer two more times, each time with all green lights = healthy battery...BUT I flew the plane only to have the warning come on as soon as the battery stopped drawing more than 2 amps.
I stayed in contact with EarthX...
I also switched the fault monitor from my Skyview to EarthX's LED to eliminate one possible cause but still same results.
EarthX sent me a new battery, I installed it today with the fault wire back to my Skyview EMS, flew one hour with no faults.
I will ship the old battery back, and may hear why the fault warning.
The EarthX battery, my starter, my alternator all performed as they should throughout all this.
Without the fault monitor hooked up I would not have known any problem, including the charger/tester/balancer reporting all well.
EarthX also updated the owner's manual to give better instructions on wiring to EFIS systems including a change to Dynon, plus more information on why the fault warning might come on. Visit their website...
Yes, I recommend the hookup of the fault monitor.
I will report more if anything changes but I hope for fast starts and flying light!
Thanks Kathy and EarthX!
 
While flying tonight under the hood I received a flashing light on one of my EarthX batteries. We were still near the airport and landed. From what I am reading it appears the fault is due to a weak cell and should be covered under warranty. Looks like I will be contacting Kathy tomorrow for next steps.
 
Two failures in low-time service so far is a bit worrisome. I was about to pull the trigger on saving 11 lbs with an EarthX, but now I'll wait to see if there are more reported failures in the near future.

Looks like Ryan's had less than 100 hours of flight time on it (reported as 50 hours in June). Bruce's had only 30 hours, 15 flights. Perhaps some infant mortality issues?
 
krw5927 said:
Two failures in low-time service so far is a bit worrisome. I was about to pull the trigger on saving 11 lbs with an EarthX, but now I'll wait to see if there are more reported failures in the near future.

Looks like Ryan's had less than 100 hours of flight time on it (reported as 50 hours in June). Bruce's had only 30 hours, 15 flights. Perhaps some infant mortality issues?
Click to expand...

Dear Kurt,

Please note that when the fault light indicator is activated, that does not mean the battery is a "failure." The LED light is designed to alert you to a potential situation, one of which could be a failure but it can also alert you to other scenarios.

The LED light can be activated for a state of charge indication (if the voltage is low it will flash to let you know you need to charge it and will stop once charged; if the voltage is above 14.6V it will flash to let you know it is being attempted to be overcharged by either the charger or the alternator and stop once the overcharging stops; it will flash if the charge levels within the pack itself is in the process of balancing and will turn off once balanced or it will flash and remain flashing to indicate a weak or defective cell. There is also a solid LED light that will activate to alert you to a detected problem with the electronics on the BMS. This light will not turn off once activated.

This is not to say that out of the thousands of batteries out there, we will not have warranties because we will. It would be awesome to be able to have a product that would never have an issue but that is not a reality, hence the LED fault light indicator , application information, and our warranty coverage.
 
krw5927 said:
Two failures in low-time service so far is a bit worrisome. I was about to pull the trigger on saving 11 lbs with an EarthX, but now I'll wait to see if there are more reported failures in the near future.

Looks like Ryan's had less than 100 hours of flight time on it (reported as 50 hours in June). Bruce's had only 30 hours, 15 flights. Perhaps some infant mortality issues?
Click to expand...

I too, like Kathy would not call my experiance with my EarthX battery a failure. In fact it has done as designed.
 
Thanks Kathy for the deeper understanding of what the flashing light does or could indicate.

Can you give us some items possibly to add to our checklist in the event the light is flashing while we are flying. I saw it flashing and pretty much immediately headed back to the airport as I was unsure as to the reason it was flashing and if it was safe to continue flying.

I have two EarthX batteries in parallel. Only one was flashing. I did not see any difference in volts at this time. One was 14.3 the other 14.1. They have always been about .02 different. Since I was flying at night the only thing different was I had my landing,taxi lights still on and drawing more electricity than normal. Not sure that would make any difference or not. I have a fairly new 60 amp b/c alternator installed as well and was working as per normal.

That being said, I have called EarthX and they have been top notch with this and shipped me a new battery under warranty. I expect to have tomorrow and flying again this weekend.
 
EarthX Lithium said:
Dear Kurt,
The LED light is designed to alert you to a potential situation, one of which could be a failure but it can also alert you to other scenarios.
Click to expand...

Hi Kathy,

I've read the manual and am now trying to boil it down in terms of what to add to my POH/checklist. If I understand correctly the possible scenarios are these?:

Flashing light, <12.8 V = voltage too low (undercharging/discharged)
Flashing light, 13-14.6 V = cell imbalance
Flashing light, >14.6 V = voltage too high (overcharging)
Solid light = BMS fault

It would appear that the appropriate pilot action in the undercharging scenario would be to reduce electrical load, and in the overcharging scenario to turn off the alternator. In the other two scenarios the battery should be disconnected (master switch off)?

I also understand that the BMS will shut the battery off by itself if there is less than 5% charge remaining (approx. 11.5 V), or if the charging circuit rises above 16 V. I'm not sure though what if anything the warning light does in those cases?

thanks
 
Alan Carroll said:
Hi Kathy,

I've read the manual and am now trying to boil it down in terms of what to add to my POH/checklist. If I understand correctly the possible scenarios are these?:

Flashing light, <12.8 V = voltage too low (undercharging/discharged)
Flashing light, 13-14.6 V = cell imbalance
Flashing light, >14.6 V = voltage too high (overcharging but will not disconnect but instead block the excess voltage coming in up to 40V but still allow voltage out to run equipment)
Solid light = BMS fault

It would appear that the appropriate pilot action in the undercharging scenario would be to reduce electrical load, and in the overcharging scenario to turn off the alternator. In the other two scenarios the battery should be disconnected (master switch off)?

I also understand that the BMS will shut the battery off by itself if there is less than 5% charge remaining (approx. 11.5 V), or if the charging circuit rises above 16 V. I'm not sure though what if anything the warning light does in those cases?

thanks
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Hi Alan,

Excellent questions and observations. I am going to copy directly from the EarthX manual:

In the event of a charging system failure where the voltage increases to above 15.2V, the resistance to charging current increases, and above 16V the charging current is completely blocked. This design offers charge voltage protection up to 40V, exceeding the requirements of RTCA?s performance specification DO-311. The discharge current (current out of battery) is unaffected in this situation.
The battery?s micro-controller monitors all failure modes, and reports failures with a built-in LED indicator and discrete output. The discrete output for external fault monitoring is a single wire connection with ?? quick connect terminal. The output is a ?current sinking? type circuit (see diagram below) that can handle 100mA (connects the discrete output to battery ground if a fault is present). This output can be connected to an external 12V LED or general purpose discrete input of an EFIS. The fault output has two states; slow flashing (5 second cycle time) or solid.

The slow flashing fault can indicate an improper state of charge or a problem with the cells internal to the battery. If the battery voltage is outside the normal range of operation, 12.8V to 14.6V, the battery is over-discharged or over-charged, most likely the result of an issue with the electrical/charging system. If the battery is less than 13.0V, you simply need to charge. If the voltage is greater than 14.6V, then the charging system should be investigated.
If the battery voltage is within the normal operating range, with a slow flashing fault, it is indicating an abnormal condition with a cell, such as one cell?s state of charge is very different as compared to the other cells (high cell charge level imbalance). The slow flashing fault may come on briefly during or following periods of high current charging, and is not a concern. But if the fault persist, comes on consistently during changing, or remains (charging or not), the battery will need to be replaced.
The solid fault indicates a BMS hardware failure. For example, if the micro-controller fails the fault indication output is activated (on solid). If the fault persist, comes on and stays on, the battery will need to be replaced. 
A sustained fault can indicate a serious issue with the battery or vehicle charging system that requires immediate attention. Discontinue use until the issue is resolved and the battery no longer indicates a fault. Continued use of a faulty battery can result in a cell rupture, the release of flammable vapors, smoke and or a fire.

Flashing light, <12.8 V = voltage too low (undercharging/discharged)
Flashing light, 13.28V-14.6 V = cell imbalance (this could be temporary while the cells come into being balanced)
Flashing light, >14.6 V = voltage too high (overcharging)
Solid light = BMS fault

The battery will disconnect when it is about 98% drained as there is nothing left in it anyway. You would have a fault light from your alternator that it isn't charging and a fault light from the EarthX battery that it isn't being charged and being drained.

For over charge, you should have a fault light from your alternator saying it is over charging, and you will see a fault light from your EarthX battery saying it is being attempted to be over charged. The battery will continue to have discharge current and block up to 40V coming into the battery. In this scenario, you should disconnect your alternator as soon as you know it is faulty and trying to over charge.

I hope this helps explain things in better details.
 
EarthX Lithium said:
Hi Alan,

Excellent questions and observations. I am going to copy directly from the EarthX manual:

In the event of a charging system failure where the voltage increases to above 15.2V, the resistance to charging current increases, and above 16V the charging current is completely blocked. This design offers charge voltage protection up to 40V, exceeding the requirements of RTCA?s performance specification DO-311. The discharge current (current out of battery) is unaffected in this situation.
The battery?s micro-controller monitors all failure modes, and reports failures with a built-in LED indicator and discrete output. The discrete output for external fault monitoring is a single wire connection with ?? quick connect terminal. The output is a ?current sinking? type circuit (see diagram below) that can handle 100mA (connects the discrete output to battery ground if a fault is present). This output can be connected to an external 12V LED or general purpose discrete input of an EFIS. The fault output has two states; slow flashing (5 second cycle time) or solid.

The slow flashing fault can indicate an improper state of charge or a problem with the cells internal to the battery. If the battery voltage is outside the normal range of operation, 12.8V to 14.6V, the battery is over-discharged or over-charged, most likely the result of an issue with the electrical/charging system. If the battery is less than 13.0V, you simply need to charge. If the voltage is greater than 14.6V, then the charging system should be investigated.
If the battery voltage is within the normal operating range, with a slow flashing fault, it is indicating an abnormal condition with a cell, such as one cell?s state of charge is very different as compared to the other cells (high cell charge level imbalance). The slow flashing fault may come on briefly during or following periods of high current charging, and is not a concern. But if the fault persist, comes on consistently during changing, or remains (charging or not), the battery will need to be replaced.
The solid fault indicates a BMS hardware failure. For example, if the micro-controller fails the fault indication output is activated (on solid). If the fault persist, comes on and stays on, the battery will need to be replaced. 
A sustained fault can indicate a serious issue with the battery or vehicle charging system that requires immediate attention. Discontinue use until the issue is resolved and the battery no longer indicates a fault. Continued use of a faulty battery can result in a cell rupture, the release of flammable vapors, smoke and or a fire.

Flashing light, <12.8 V = voltage too low (undercharging/discharged)
Flashing light, 13.28V-14.6 V = cell imbalance (this could be temporary while the cells come into being balanced)
Flashing light, >14.6 V = voltage too high (overcharging)
Solid light = BMS fault

The battery will disconnect when it is about 98% drained as there is nothing left in it anyway. You would have a fault light from your alternator that it isn't charging and a fault light from the EarthX battery that it isn't being charged and being drained.

For over charge, you should have a fault light from your alternator saying it is over charging, and you will see a fault light from your EarthX battery saying it is being attempted to be over charged. The battery will continue to have discharge current and block up to 40V coming into the battery. In this scenario, you should disconnect your alternator as soon as you know it is faulty and trying to over charge.

I hope this helps explain things in better details.
Click to expand...

Kathy,

Thanks for the further explanation (also thanks Ryan for raising the same questions).

If I understand correctly, the light will always be flashing in an overcharge situation. The overcharging could be temporary however. Presumably this would happen right after using the starter due to the temporary high load that was placed on the battery? If the voltage is over 16 the BMS will block incoming current completely, but the light will continue to flash.

Regarding alternators, I don't think the ones in common use actually provide a warning of overcharging (at least mine doesn't). The warning would come from high bus voltage and high current output (and from the flashing battery light).

If the battery is discharged to the point where the BMS disconnects it, will the light simply go out? Or does it keep flashing?

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, most pilots are unlikely to start reading the manual when the light comes one (if the manual is even in the plane), and years might elapse between the time they did read the manual and when a problem arises. Its very helpful therefore to have a simplified summary that can be added to a checklist. This might be a good thing for EarthX to consider adding to the manual.
 
"If I understand correctly, the light will always be flashing in an overcharge situation- YES

"The overcharging could be temporary however. Presumably this would happen right after using the starter due to the temporary high load that was placed on the battery?" No, it will not come on as a result of starting.

If the battery is discharged to the point where the BMS disconnects it, will the light simply go out? Correct, the light goes out to conserve energy at this point. And the battery will read 0V.

"The warning would come from high bus voltage and high current output (and from the flashing battery light).- YES, sorry for saying there is an alternator fault warning. a voltage warning is what I meant.

"Its very helpful therefore to have a simplified summary that can be added to a checklist. This might be a good thing for EarthX to consider adding to the manual."- Excellent idea and we will make that happen!

 
This morning I had to abort a flight to ECG due to a fault warning from my EarthX ETX680 battery. The battery has been inservice for about 2 years / 80 hours. During taxing, I noticed the fault intermittently flashing from time to time, but not consistently (I have it connected to a G3X EIS discrete input rather than a warning light.) I cycled the alternator, and the indication went away, and I took off. On turnout to the south, the intermittent indications returned, so I called tower and advised them I needed to return to the airport. I taxied back to my hanger, checked all the power connections through the oil door, then restarted. Everything seemed OK, so I took off again. But after climbing out, I got another series of intermittent flashes, then a solid indication. Returned once again and pulled the cowl to gain access to the battery, and pulled the G3X GDU to get at the EIS module mounted behind it. Checked all the wiring (replaced a loose crimp-on connector from a pulldown resistor connected to the fuel pump indicator circuit,) then tested some voltages. Battery voltage when the alternator was offline was ~13.3v; battery voltage when alternator was on is 14.4v. Steady voltage was present on the fault pigtail coming from the BMS, 2.16v (noted when the master was on and off, engine not running.) Did a taxi test run around the hangers cowl-less and did not experience a fault indication. Re-cowled, and taxied to the apron, then experienced another intermittent flashing fault indication. Decided to call it a day.

So, I am unclear if there is a problem with the battery. On one hand, it *might* be an unbalanced cell condition - but could very well be something more sinister. I didn't want to strand myself in North Carolina to find out (not that there is anything wrong with the Tarheel State....)

EarthX is of course closed on the weekend - anybody want to diagnose?
 
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Timely post, I have been having more and more flashing light on my EarthX which has been in service for less than a year, maybe 8 months. Mine starts flashing about 20-30 minutes into the flight and can last from 5 minutes to 15-20 minutes. It comes on for 5 seconds and off for 5 seconds so it is a very slow flashing. Me volts during flight is at 14.2 and the amp the normal 20A that I have always had. The voltage of the battery on the ground with the engine turned off is about 14.1

I have talked to EarthX engineer and he believes it is the imbalance charging of the cells and offered to replace it if it continues which it has and has only got worse.
 
Bavafa said:
Timely post, I have been having more and more flashing light on my EarthX which has been in service for less than a year, maybe 8 months. Mine starts flashing about 20-30 minutes into the flight and can last from 5 minutes to 15-20 minutes. It comes on for 5 seconds and off for 5 seconds so it is a very slow flashing. Me volts during flight is at 14.2 and the amp the normal 20A that I have always had. The voltage of the battery on the ground with the engine turned off is about 14.1

I have talked to EarthX engineer and he believes it is the imbalance charging of the cells and offered to replace it if it continues which it has and has only got worse.
Click to expand...

I'm curious: Do you have their battery charger and, if so, did you plug it in to the battery for it to balance the cells? The charger will detect a cross-cell imbalance and rebalance them.
 
scrollF4 said:
I'm curious: Do you have their battery charger and, if so, did you plug it in to the battery for it to balance the cells? The charger will detect a cross-cell imbalance and rebalance them.
Click to expand...

No but I suspect the cells are pretty balance at take off since I have seen the flashing light only 30-40 minutes into the flight so not sure how the charger could help in my case.
 
UPDATE: Earthx contacted me this morning and will be replacing my battery under warranty. They said it likely that my battery is experiencing a cell imbalance, but decided that the safer route would be to replace the battery under warranty. The BMS is my battery is an earlier design; the logic in the newer design evaluates the cells using a more tolerant algorithm. So that's good news and I wish to commend Earthx for standing by their product. (I also decided to buy one of their chargers that automatically balances the cells.) I received a tracking number later in the day, so I'll swap out the battery and send the old one back for testing. I've asked for them to let me know what they find. Side note: they were pleased that I had hooked up the BMS to a warning light (actually the EFIS in my case,) noting that many people do not.
 
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