What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Life vest question

Don Patterson

Don Patterson

Well Known Member
We are planning a trip to Key West in a few weeks and want to buy a couple of inflatable life vests. My first thought was to buy a vest that will inflate the moment you enter the water. However a water landing will most likely put you into an inverted position when everything comes to rest.
An inflated life vest in an inverted plane would only make it more difficult to exit the water filled aircraft.
The other option would be a manual inflatable vest that can be inflated after you exit the plane.
Just wondering what others have purchased? Auto inflation or Manual?
 
Manual inflation, for the reasons stated. If you are just near the coast, hopping Keys with lots of recreational boaters around, something like this would work fine. True over water, even for short periods, I would pack a life raft, too.
 
Searches

Do a little looking on line. We for our key west and this years Bahamas run, we did some looking. Turned out the best deal was bass pro shops one, fully certified, small, pull to inflate. Think they were on special for about $80 with free shipping to my house. They look almost like the crow harness padded straps when on.
Auto inflate no good. Fully certified by coast guard good. Enjoy your trip!
 
FWIW: I flew for US Customs in the Caribbean and with the Civil Air Patrol on over water patrols for many years. I often fly over water in my airplane having done many trips to the Caribbean, Key West, Cozumel and Cancun. I recommend taking some kind of water survival training (dunker) if you can. With Customs I took mandatory survival training every year. They concentrated on water survival so I have a good idea of what to expect. There were a few things I learned about water survival that opened my eyes.

The 1st thing is that if you have to ditch, you will probably want to get out of the airplane as soon as possible. That means that if the survival gear isn’t strapped to your body you probably won’t have it when you leave the airplane. I know I will not go back into a possibly sinking airplane to remove anything once I am out. So if the airplane sinks, that mandatory expensive ELT installed in the airplane will go down with it and the signal will not be picked up by anybody. That is why I have my survival gear, to include a personal ELT with GPS capability and a Marine VHF Radio strapped to my life vest. You want to minimize the amount of time it takes rescuers to find you, hopefully within 24hrs. Remember, if it is strapped to your body it is survival gear. Everything else is camping gear.

Another thing is that it is extremely difficult to climb into a life raft in open waters. If you do not continuously practice this, you will probably run out of energy trying to get in and not be able to stay afloat. If you don’t believe me, try getting into a small raft in the deep end of a swimming pool. It will open your eyes on how hard it really is. Now add wind, waves, adrenaline and possibly an injury and you will see what I mean. This is why I don't carry a raft. I don't say to not carry a raft in the airplane, but you are much better off wearing a good life vest than carrying a raft in the airplane. In my opinion those "around the waist" airline type life vests with a life raft only provide a false sense of security.

I personally wear a high quality life vest whenever I will be a significant distance from land with a GPS-PLB and a Marine VHF Radio strapped to it from the time I get in to the airplane until I have landed and shut the engine down. Again, you want to minimize the amount of time it takes rescuers to find you. If I am flying over the warm waters of the Caribbean I am not very concerned with hypothermia setting in quickly, but not the same if overflying the North Atlantic.

Finally, no matter how shallow the water is, if you can't stand up with your head out of the water you might as well be in 1,000 feet of water. Don't get lulled in to a false sense of security just because the water isn't very deep.

Just my 2 cents.

:cool:
 
Last edited:
forum search?

I recall a pretty extensive discussion on life vests previously...not always easy to search on the forum, but sometimes even Google sends you right back here...to the correct page!! :)

something I had never thought about...weight! I did a 'dunker' course last year, and wearing my fly fishing vest ( inflatable) and my usual nomex coveralls, shoes etc. I was surprised how much I weighed! My vest has only one bladder, and is rated to support 200 lbs or so, but if you are fully geared up, it would be really nice to actually have your face WELL above water, not just near it! add to that some extra clothing etc, or if you or your passenger is unconscious, or unable to swim at all after a long time in the soup, and you want MUCH more flotation that some of the little suspenders might provide.
aircraftsurvivalgearvestcontentslowres_zpsa767b0bb.jpg


Here's my take on..."if you aren't wearing it when you get out, you ain't gonna have it later." Yes, it's bulky, but I was able to swim thru a Cessna and Beaver size window underwater, with my eyes closed.
It's a good feeling to know that at least if you were able to do it in a pool, you've got a chance to do it for real. I am not affiliated,
http://www.dunkyou.com/
but everyone will benefit from this kind of training, and you insurance co. usually gives you a decent discount!

another link to a vest, with a similar angle....not sure if it's a PFD, but I'm sure the many military flyers on here will have great tips as well.

http://www.dougritter.com/dr_essentials_vest.htm
 
Last edited:
Bumping this old thread up...

GalinHdz said:
FWIW: I flew for US Customs in the Caribbean and with the Civil Air Patrol on over water patrols for many years. I often fly over water in my airplane having done many trips to the Caribbean, Key West, Cozumel and Cancun. I recommend taking some kind of water survival training (dunker) if you can. With Customs I took mandatory survival training every year. They concentrated on water survival so I have a good idea of what to expect. There were a few things I learned about water survival that opened my eyes.

The 1st thing is that if you have to ditch, you will probably want to get out of the airplane as soon as possible. That means that if the survival gear isn’t strapped to your body you probably won’t have it when you leave the airplane. I know I will not go back into a possibly sinking airplane to remove anything once I am out. So if the airplane sinks, that mandatory expensive ELT installed in the airplane will go down with it and the signal will not be picked up by anybody. That is why I have my survival gear, to include a personal ELT with GPS capability and a Marine VHF Radio strapped to my life vest. You want to minimize the amount of time it takes rescuers to find you, hopefully within 24hrs. Remember, if it is strapped to your body it is survival gear. Everything else is camping gear.

Another thing is that it is extremely difficult to climb into a life raft in open waters. If you do not continuously practice this, you will probably run out of energy trying to get in and not be able to stay afloat. If you don’t believe me, try getting into a small raft in the deep end of a swimming pool. It will open your eyes on how hard it really is. Now add wind, waves, adrenaline and possibly an injury and you will see what I mean. This is why I don't carry a raft. I don't say to not carry a raft in the airplane, but you are much better off wearing a good life vest than carrying a raft in the airplane. In my opinion those "around the waist" airline type life vests with a life raft only provide a false sense of security.

I personally wear a high quality life vest whenever I will be a significant distance from land with a GPS-PLB and a Marine VHF Radio strapped to it from the time I get in to the airplane until I have landed and shut the engine down. Again, you want to minimize the amount of time it takes rescuers to find you. If I am flying over the warm waters of the Caribbean I am not very concerned with hypothermia setting in quickly, but not the same if overflying the North Atlantic.

Finally, no matter how shallow the water is, if you can't stand up with your head out of the water you might as well be in 1,000 feet of water. Don't get lulled in to a false sense of security just because the water isn't very deep.

Just my 2 cents.

:cool:
Click to expand...

I'm getting a land/limited overwater equipment kit together, and this post caught my eye, especially the comments regarding life rafts.

Any thoughts on the use of something like this for short-duration water or land survival:

https://www.land-shark.com

Online reviews are mostly favorable and it appears a fairly robust, yet lightweight option for maybe doing the trick if one has to put down in water or overnight near a forced landing or crash site. Better than slowly freezing to death...

Comments welcome....

Ps-I already have the life jackets and small 406 ELBA as well as a handheld VHF comm radio...
 
Last edited:
Quick comment on inflatable life jackets and long hair... Back when I had my trimaran sailboat, my crew had very long hair. She found that she could not wear an inflatable life jacket because it would snag her hair.

She was quite happy with a kayaking life jacket.

My own experience with the kayaking types is that some of them have fairly high backs, and these are less comfortable sitting than ones with longer backs. For the longer backed ones, the foam is a bit thinner, too, so it's overall more comfortable.

While I've never had to attempt to escape a capsized sailboat I've been in the water plenty of times with a kayaking life jacket and found it to be comfortable. I generally didn't have heavy gear; if you do, take that weight into account. Also take into account how rough the seas might be. Rougher seas suggest more buoyancy.

One other thing that might apply or not, is that inflatable life vets are worn outside jackets. Kayak life jackets can be worn under outside jackets and that might be warmer or more comfortable.

An additional possibility, that I haven't tried, is inflatable jackets - jackets with the inflatable feature built in.

In any event, it's worth checking the marine outlets for some of this gear.

Dave
 
What they teach at dunker

Trained on both jet and helo dunker at NAS Pensacola. You go through a series of scenarios with the last one being inverted and blindfolded ( blacked out swim goggles).

Prior to impact unlatch windows ,door, canopy,etc
Strap in as tight as you can stand it and lock inertial reel
Grab a reference point and hang onto it like a canopy frame, door handle etc
After impact do not unstrap until water stops rushing in so you don't get stuffed in a corner disoriented
Unstrap with other hand and use reference point to find exit.
Pull yourself clear and don't kick until clear so you don't snag a foot or clothing
Once clear inflate LPU.
Close your eyes just before you break surface in case there is gas on the surface
 
Even With Training, You're Not Likely to do the Right Things

You may recall the story of Scott O'Grady, USAF pilot shot down over Bosnia. In spite of all of the repetitious training and participation at SERE school, review of his actions after the fact showed a multitude of serious errors on his part. Good news was that in spite of these errors, he survived by doing a few things by the book (a massive search and rescue initiative played a big part). Unfortunately, most RV pilots won't ever see this type of training, nor will they have the resources O'Grady had available to him.

This is a short video of an RV "landing" in smooth water: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG7ApdEnktI

IF you remember to slow down to near stall at contact (glassy water makes it hard to judge HAT), and you're strapped in tightly, you're still going to experience a VERY hard impact due to rapid deceleration. Even if the shoulder harness assembly remains intact, the impact will likely be a bit like taking a rope swing and launching yourself directly into a nearby tree. In the likely scenario that the plane is now upside down (and you're at least semi-lucid), you're probably not going to be rationally searching for a life raft, nor will you have the time. Getting yourself and your passenger out as quickly as possible might be the best you're going to do. Inflatable life vest (not water activated). Wear it.

Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
tchevy56 said:
Trained on both jet and helo dunker at NAS Pensacola. You go through a series of scenarios with the last one being inverted and blindfolded ( blacked out swim goggles).

Prior to impact unlatch windows ,door, canopy,etc
Strap in as tight as you can stand it and lock inertial reel
Grab a reference point and hang onto it like a canopy frame, door handle etc
After impact do not unstrap until water stops rushing in so you don't get stuffed in a corner disoriented
Unstrap with other hand and use reference point to find exit.
Pull yourself clear and don't kick until clear so you don't snag a foot or clothing
Once clear inflate LPU.
Close your eyes just before you break surface in case there is gas on the surface
Click to expand...
WOW! That gave me FLASHBACKS of "surviving the ND5" at NAS Jacksonville many years ago. Couldn't have said it any better.

:cool:
 
Last edited:
GalinHdz said:
WOW! That gave me FLASHBACKS of "surviving the ND5" at NAS Jacksonville many years ago. Couldn't have said it any better.

:cool:
Click to expand...

I would second the underwater egress training similiar to this: https://youtu.be/atGLddtvKNE?list=PLB3cfdRFWIl2PMSsJtHUlpR_usKdzs-Bf

You cannot prepare for how disoreiented you will be after flipping upside down, submerged in water. After doing this training, the importance of have a seatbelt snug is all the more evident.

In the GoM we use these life vests: MK44
 
Bumping this back to life again...

Because I'm still trying to get the opinion of folks who have done a lot of overwater/back country flying on the Land-Shark survival bag found here:

https://www.land-shark.com/

I'm looking for a short term bivouac and/or shelter after a forced landing or a ditching.

Given the expense and already pointed out difficulties of using a raft, what does the brain trust think of having something like this available?

Worthless? Better than nothing? Great?

My last survival experience was in the dead of winter outside of Fairchild AFB, WA in 1979 courtesy of the the USAF and consisted of a lot of miserable shivering and cold feet...

While this survival bivy is no Taj Mahal, all I want it to do is keep me from freezing to death while waiting for rescue folks to show up, so other than that, expectations are low.

Thanks!
 
I read that ad and honestly think it's the kind of thing you would see on an infomercial etc. Strikes me as "marketing" by some slick ad guy who doesn't know and would never go further than his own back yard. YMMV - a lot! ;-)

~Marc
 
The 1st thing is that if you have to ditch, you will probably want to get out of the airplane as soon as possible. That means that if the survival gear isn?t strapped to your body you probably won?t have it when you leave the airplane. I know I will not go back into a possibly sinking airplane to remove anything once I am out. So if the airplane sinks, that mandatory expensive ELT installed in the airplane will go down with it and the signal will not be picked up by anybody. That is why I have my survival gear, to include a personal ELT with GPS capability and a Marine VHF Radio strapped to my life vest. You want to minimize the amount of time it takes rescuers to find you, hopefully within 24hrs. Remember, if it is strapped to your body it is survival gear. Everything else is camping gear.

Another thing is that it is extremely difficult to climb into a life raft in open waters. If you do not continuously practice this, you will probably run out of energy trying to get in and not be able to stay afloat. If you don?t believe me, try getting into a small raft in the deep end of a swimming pool. It will open your eyes on how hard it really is. Now add wind, waves, adrenaline and possibly an injury and you will see what I mean. This is why I don't carry a raft. I don't say to not carry a raft in the airplane, but you are much better off wearing a good life vest than carrying a raft in the airplane. In my opinion those "around the waist" airline type life vests with a life raft only provide a false sense of security.

I personally wear a high quality life vest whenever I will be a significant distance from land with a GPS-PLB and a Marine VHF Radio strapped to it from the time I get in to the airplane until I have landed and shut the engine down. Again, you want to minimize the amount of time it takes rescuers to find you. If I am flying over the warm waters of the Caribbean I am not very concerned with hypothermia setting in quickly, but not the same if overflying the North Atlantic.

Finally, no matter how shallow the water is, if you can't stand up with your head out of the water you might as well be in 1,000 feet of water. Don't get lulled in to a false sense of security just because the water isn't very deep.

Just my 2 cents.

:cool:[/QUOTE]

Along with this great info I suggest that all items are tied/secured to some sort of vest (we use a fishing vest) under your floatation devise. Nothing worse than making it out and having your PLB or VHF go floating to the the bottom because of slippery fingers.

My penny thrown in
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top