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RV6A Wing-Stall Landings

iaw4

Well Known Member
dear RVers---I thought I would share a flying experience here for newcomers to Vans RV airplanes.

it surprised me a little that the stall in an RV6A appears more sudden than a stall in an RV9A. I had expected that the relevant speeds would just all be a little higher. This bit me in an attempt of a demonstration of a full-stall landing from a misjudged 3 feet altitude. the airplane suddenly dropped and the front-wheel needed a repair afterwards.

this is *not* a safety issue.

in the air, it is easily corrected by releasing back pressure.

on normal landing, it is easily avoided by flying reasonable landings, rather than insisting on wanting to have the main wheels touch with a wing stall (and miscalculating the altitude). there is also only a limited angle before a tail strike happens in a 6A.

I hope this helps other pilots.

/iaw
 
dear RVers---I thought I would share a flying experience here for newcomers to Vans RV airplanes.

it surprised me a little that the stall in an RV6A appears more sudden than a stall in an RV9A. I had expected that the relevant speeds would just all be a little higher. This bit me in an attempt of a demonstration of a full-stall landing from a misjudged 3 feet altitude. the airplane suddenly dropped and the front-wheel needed a repair afterwards.

this is *not* a safety issue.

in the air, it is easily corrected by releasing back pressure.

on normal landing, it is easily avoided by flying reasonable landings, rather than insisting on wanting to have the main wheels touch with a wing stall (and miscalculating the altitude). there is also only a limited angle before a tail strike happens in a 6A.

I hope this helps other pilots.

/iaw

Most all of my landings in my 6A are full stall, and I have NEVER touched the tail. So the limited angle of the 6A which is greater than the 6, is more than needed if properly flown.

Now, if I jumped into a 9A and demonstrated a full stall landing for the first time, I might be in for a surprise.................:eek:
 
dear RVers---I thought I would share a flying experience here for newcomers to Vans RV airplanes.

it surprised me a little that the stall in an RV6A appears more sudden than a stall in an RV9A. I had expected that the relevant speeds would just all be a little higher. This bit me in an attempt of a demonstration of a full-stall landing from a misjudged 3 feet altitude. the airplane suddenly dropped and the front-wheel needed a repair afterwards.

this is *not* a safety issue.

in the air, it is easily corrected by releasing back pressure.

on normal landing, it is easily avoided by flying reasonable landings, rather than insisting on wanting to have the main wheels touch with a wing stall (and miscalculating the altitude). there is also only a limited angle before a tail strike happens in a 6A.

I hope this helps other pilots.

/iaw

Your experience in the 6A is different from my experience in the 6A. I am curious.. have you stalled this aircraft at altitude, and if so, how would you describe its mannerisms in the stall at altitude?
 
I am not a particularly good pilot, having gone back to flying just recently after a 10-year hiatus. what I don't have in skill right now, I make up in chicken-ness.

I found the RV-6A fairly difficult to stall to begin with. I had to point the nose almost sky-high. I only did it once, though. my personal flying rule is to avoid stalls to begin with. I want to automatically push the stick forward *before* I get into a stall. I follow this:

https://flightchops.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/FLIGHT-CHOPS-AQP-FINAL-V5a.pdf

in my mind, a stall at landing was the only good time for a stall.

on this particular day, I did misjudge my altitude at my full stall landing, pulling the stick back further and further, but instead of being inches above the ground, I think I was about 3' above the ground. I recall the rv9a continuing to lose altitude gradually when holding the stick back "forever"; the rv6a seemed more sudden.

later, on the ground, I did lean back on the tail once to check the angle at which the tie-down ring touched the ground. The critical stall angle in ground effect seems steeper than the one for a tail strike. But I won't find out---one attempt was enough for me. I am now going to land it the safe and easy way, at a speed of 60 knots and a very low 50fpm descent rate.
 
I recall from many years ago that the 6A's stall angle of attack would cause the tail to hit. This may not be true when in close ground effect with full flaps.

There most certainly is a point at 1' or 2' of altitude where it will simply stop flying and plop down.

The stall at altitude is very different than from a few feet. At a foot or two, it is only salvageable with a quick pulse of power.

I have found that maintaining a constant deck angle for the last few feet is the best way to have consistent landings, using only a slight burst of power to soften the touchdown if necessary. YMMV.

I will try to get data on the deck angles at stall, at altitude, when in level flight and in different configurations. I also want to know deck angle at tail contact vs whatever angle I typically have on touchdown.
 
that's exactly what it did in my case. about 2' up, I pull the stick back and back and back, and it suddenly without warning started to fly vertically---not like near-stall flight at altitude. is it just my impression that an rv-9a or piper cherokee have less sudden drops?

all of this is really easily avoidable by just flying reasonable landings and not trying for a full-stall main-wheel landing. there is really no reason to do this anyway. other than my wallet, it hurt my pride.
 
nice articles. for those about to start flying,

[1] landing an rv6a is really easy, unless one insists on demonstrating a full-stall landing and misjudges altitude;

[2] the stall onset in ground effect seems to be a little more sudden on short-wing aircraft like the 6a than it is on longer-wing aircraft; and

[3] transition training is always a good idea no matter how good one is.
 
on normal landing, it is easily avoided by flying reasonable landings, rather than insisting on wanting to have the main wheels touch with a wing stall ...
Oh, you've gone and done it now. I was roundly beaten about the head and shoulders for offering that I usually "fly my Lancair on" rather than attempting a full stall landing. I made that decision for exactly the reason you mentioned: It's hard on the nose gear when the stall breaks and the nose slams down.
 
Pitch Angle Data

With the data from the G3X, I created the following plots.

This is one with the aircraft in the hangar. I simply pushed the tail down to within about 1/2" of the floor and returned it (no tail tie-down eye in place):

ACtC-3dzYAqQutjTZNVOney1wVp-AVoTGHRVJHhkgUy2p51fEiGaDhMnnztZr_uK-duHFKmt2QhCe6zhzHZydryrlASkqT3Oxq3ceoRGeqSiEsNhLvBhZnfa03A_fJ76lNINzx4EpdskwaOFBfY3msUgq347sw=w600


This data is during several seconds of the landing phase:

ACtC-3eBX56ratlybpbuCyd0b_x-v0BbAHPspPggotot90tk59KZ2Qrsd9hoMLe_iJJWfiGdS3Z48IosipTe-GieSgcb91-r2or3kwR_Ri9S7eDXVu-jKNl9HLKz3Jurn6AxQLQHH79ckXc-PoV70d1eTiGtjg=w800


Discussion: I made special note of forward visibility just at the point of touchdown. I'm 72" tall, 34" inseam, Bose headset maybe 1" from the canopy. Just before touchdown, I lost the horizon (head not tipped up), and my eyes immediately went perhaps 20 degrees left for the next couple seconds. The pitch angle was almost 9 degrees. Note that this is about 5 degrees away from tail striking, assuming no landing gear deflection. Note also that the stall warning was not going off.

I believe a firm, full stall landing in the 6A could put the tail within striking distance of the ground.

Thumbnails for posterity:
 

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Why are you doing a “full stall” landing in the first place?

I consider myself your average , run of the mill, RV6A pilot. I owned my plane for 15 years and about 1000 flight hours. Unless you are landing on a very short runway why do what you did and risk damaging the gear especially the nose gear which is fragile. What if you misjudge your height a little as happened to you or you have a change in the wind speed or direction ? There are instructors that may well jump into this conversation and explain it better. I carry enough speed to maintain nice controllability, control the sink rate, allow for any gusty conditions and always land on the main gear and hold the nose gear off until it settles on its own at about 40ish. Yes, at 5’10” I do not see the runway over the nose but that’s common for most airplanes I have flown. Rod Machado a well
Known instructor and writer has some videos describing how to judge height above runway during the landing phase.
The only time I ever hit the tail tie down ring was foolishly participating in a “closest to the line” landing contest and kept raising the nose to try to hit the spot .
 
Here are some articles by Van himself that may be of interest.


Thanks for the link Carl. I gave up on 3 pointers in my -8 and just wheel it on. The nose attitude is just to high in the stall. According to Van, I’ve bypassed the process of learning to 3 point it (although every other tail wheel I’ve flown, I’ve three pointed). I have some practicing to do!
 
I carry enough speed to maintain nice controllability, control the sink rate, allow for any gusty conditions and always land on the main gear and hold the nose gear off until it settles on its own at about 40ish.

Same here. My home airport has the typical wind at 90*, with a decent amount of rotors from the trees and buildings. I learned early on that landings very close to stall speed create real challenges in my environment. I eventually began to carry extra speed and lengthen the flare distance. This allows me to work through the up/down activity in the rotors and "feel for" the ground with my wheel. Yes, I end up landing 5-10 mph faster than necessary and may take some life off my tires. ON the flip side, I never "drop it in" with the risk of landing flat and having a bad nosewheel day. If things are calm, I just extend the flare longer and land closer to stall speed. This approach always has me off the runway in 2000' and I don't real go to airports with shorter runways.

This applies only to my 6A. The 10 is a different animal and is not upset by the rotors the way the short stubby wings of the 6 are.

Larry
 
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Same here. My home airport has the typical wind at 90*, with a decent amount of rotors from the trees and buildings. I learned early on that landings very close to stall speed create real challenges in my environment. I eventually began to carry extra speed and lengthen the flare distance. This allows me to work through the up/down activity in the rotors and "feel for" the ground with my wheel. Yes, I end up landing 5-10 mph faster than necessary and may take some life off my tires. ON the flip side, I never "drop it in" with the risk of landing flat and having a bad nosewheel day. If things are calm, I just extend the flare longer and land closer to stall speed. This approach always has me off the runway in 2000' and I don't real go to airports with shorter runways.

This applies only to my 6A. The 10 is a different animal and is not upset by the rotors the way the short stubby wings of the 6 are.

Larry

Larry, I completely agree. That is how I've done 2500 or so landings.

It would be interesting if someone could measure the pitch angle of an RV-6 when on the gear, to see what pitch angle is achieved when landing 3-point.
 
pitch angle of an RV-6

As far as I recall we measured mine at 9°. And the reason I abandoned the install of a Bell fork since it raised the tail by an inch or so. I like the ability to operate in/out of short strips and set my minimum runway length at 600ft. No wheelies for me, thanks ;)
 
I think a really good exercise is to fly just above the runway. Literally try to keep the plane off the runway a couple inches at 65-70knots and never touch.

Do that over and over and maybe even let it touch the mains then power up, up, and away. No more plopping and you’ll dial in your sight picture without wearing out your gear, tires, and brakes.

Just a thought
 
but if you do this (practice flying slowly without landing), make sure you have a good instructor next to you in the cockpit to rescue you.

see, this is basically what I did...unfortunately at a different and much wider runway. my visual picture was dialed into my usual runway, so I was higher than usual / what I thought I was. maybe a foot too high. after coming in from 130 knots at and 2,000' into a different airport, misjudging the diagonal visual angle while trying to keep my eye on the runway is not a difficult mistake to make.

well, I decided to just hold it back more and more and more...until the short wing either suddenly gave way while I was still my foot too high or I struck the tail. in either case, the result is the same...a new front wheel fairing and a lot of hurt pride. an instructor in the other seat would have warned me. having him/her there is also what Van recommends.

to repeat, this sort of landing is not necessary at all. on most asphalted runways, a perfectly good landing does not need to be at stall speed, at all, and it avoids an unnecessary source of problems.
 
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