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New Operating Limitations coming!

Mel

Legacy Member
Mentor
OK, You've waited for it. The new order 8130.2H here.
Beginning 03/31/2015 operating limitations will all get a new look.
And you AIN'T gonna like 'em.
In addition to many other changes, op lims issued 03/31/2015 and later will prohibit the caring of passengers for all EAB and ELSA during phase II.
Yep, I said phase II. That's like for the life of the aircraft.

I've tried contacting FAA from my local office to Oklahoma City. No one will respond.

We all need to make noise!
 
What???

They allow carrying a passenger during Phase 1 now under certain circumstances, but not under Phase II??????????????????
 
OK, You've waited for it. The new order 8130.2H here.
Beginning 03/31/2015 operating limitations will all get a new look.
And you AIN'T gonna like 'em.
In addition to many other changes, op lims issued 03/31/2015 and later will prohibit the caring of passengers for all EAB and ELSA during phase II.
Yep, I said phase II. That's like for the life of the aircraft.

I've tried contacting FAA from my local office to Oklahoma City. No one will respond.

We all need to make noise!

Wow, I can't think of a quicker way to kill most of experimental aviation.
 
All I can think of is that someone must have made a typo, or dramatically misunderstood the concept of Phase 2... or be on some manufacturer's payroll to try to instantly devalue any new E/AB or E/LSA built.

I am hopeful for quick resolution. "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity... but don't rule out malice."
 
Please tell me this is a typo, or at least another round of "whoops, meant one thing, said another". This would be beyond absurd if true.
 
I assure you it's NOT a typo. It's confirmed and goes into effect 03/31/2015. (NOT April 1st).
Obviously the writers have no clue about the real world.
In the new order, ALL operating limitations are lumped together with each paragraph (55 of them) tagged as to what category they apply to.
It's obviously a problem that will be addressed, but how long will that take.
Like I say, the order goes into effect next week!
Believe it or not, my FAA supervisor suggested that I contact EAA headquarters. It seems that nowadays EAA has more power than the FAA who actually writes the rules. Ironic?
If it is an April Fool joke it's the first one I've seen perpetrated by the Federal Government.
We DARs have been given our marching orders and told to implement them.
 
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For Sale - RV6, 650 hours, IO360/CS, glass, excellent workmanship = $1
Ops Limits = priceless......

Only 2500 to choose from. Get yours while they last....
 
I assure you it's NOT a typo. It's confirmed and goes into effect 03/31/2015.
Obviously the writers have no clue about the real world.
In the new order, ALL operating limitations are lumped together with each paragraph (55 of them) tagged as to what category they apply to.
It's obviously a problem that will be addressed, but how long will that take.
Like I say, the order goes into effect next week!
Believe it or not, my FAA supervisor suggested that I contact EAA headquarters. It seems that nowadays EAA has more power than the FAA who actually writes the rules. Ironic?


Mel, when did this come available? Just today? I was under the impression that federal regulations need to be vetted through public comment before promulgation. Was this out there and ignored or misinterpreted for a while?
 
Mel, when did this come available? Just today? I was under the impression that federal regulations need to be vetted through public comment before promulgation. Was this out there and ignored or misinterpreted for a while?

I just did some research. A set of changes went out a year ago for review. I found a link to the EAA's response.

http://www.eaa.org/~/media/files/news/2014-03-28_8130-2h-eaa-comments.pdf

I am going to miss by a month or two. I have a sick feeling in my gut. I don't believe this.

Larry
 
We got our notice Friday. FAA Order 8130.2H was written 02/06/2015 and is 322 pages long. There are MANY other changes but the new op lims (appendix C) are the biggest ones that affect us.
 
I think I found it... http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA_Order_8130_2H.pdf

In Table C-1, number 43 (which applies only to phase II)

For aircraft in 191d,e,g,h,&i (experimental exhibition, racing, amateur-built, primary kit-built, and LSA) it says "Issue if applicable, refer to paragraphs 3 and 5c" and the limitation is "The carriage of passengers is prohibited". Paragraph 3 is a general statement about issuing limitations; 5c says
Aircraft with very high risk factors or safety of flight issues must have those factors properly mitigated. Restrict operations to a specified geographical area, and prohibit the carriage of passengers, flight over densely populated areas, and night or instrument flight rules (IFR) operations in the following:
(1)
Aircraft for which the applicant has surrendered a special LSA airworthiness certificate (§ 21.190) and is applying for an experimental airworthiness certificate (§ 21.191) for the first time, and is not in compliance with § 91.327(b)(3) or (4);
(2)
Aircraft for which the manufacturer’s or country of origin’s emergency checklist requires bailout or ejection in the event of an engine or other system failure;
(3)
Any aircraft in which a single system failure will render the aircraft uncontrollable, such as an airplane with a hydraulic flight control system with only one hydraulic pump;
(4)
Aircraft unable to comply with § 91.117(a) in normal cruise configuration; and
(5)
Rocket-powered aircraft.

My reading of this is that, since the limitation says "issue if applicable, ref paras 3 and 5c" and 5c says to restrict carriage of passengers for the 5 items, and a regular E-AB doesn't fall in those 5 items (not LSA, no bailout checklist item, no single failure renders uncontrollable, can operate below 10,000MSL below 250kt in cruise, and not rocket-powered), it doesn't apply.

Further, I read that the statement about S-LSA to E-LSA applies only if the aircraft doesn't comply with 91.327(b)(3) and (4)
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category unless—
...
(3) The owner or operator complies with all applicable airworthiness directives;

(4) The owner or operator complies with each safety directive applicable to the aircraft that corrects an existing unsafe condition. In lieu of complying with a safety directive an owner or operator may—

(i) Correct the unsafe condition in a manner different from that specified in the safety directive provided the person issuing the directive concurs with the action; or

(ii) Obtain an FAA waiver from the provisions of the safety directive based on a conclusion that the safety directive was issued without adhering to the applicable consensus standard...
 
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OK, You've waited for it. The new order 8130.2H here.
Beginning 03/31/2015 operating limitations will all get a new look.
And you AIN'T gonna like 'em.
In addition to many other changes, op lims issued 03/31/2015 and later will prohibit the caring of passengers for all EAB and ELSA during phase II.
Yep, I said phase II. That's like for the life of the aircraft.

I've tried contacting FAA from my local office to Oklahoma City. No one will respond.

We all need to make noise!


Looks like you have to tell the passengers aircraft does not meet the FAA safety requirements????

page 302:

38 -

190 & 191(d), (e), (f), (g), (h), & (i)
191(a), (b), & (c) are always prohibited from carrying passengers -

The pilot in command of this aircraft must advise passengers that the aircraft does not meet the FAA safety requirements of a standard certificated aircraft.
or
The carriage of passengers is prohibited.



**** after rereading some of the other responses ... it's like most papers from the government ... it was written by lawyers and needs a translator to explain what they are talking about ****
 
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I also saw a proposed provision that severely limits or prohibits operation over congested areas and in defined airways, and under IFR.

Any of these provisions, if they actually stand, remove much of the utility of EAB aircraft and could spell the death of the industry.
 
Tony, again it refers back to para's 3 & 5c. 5c seems to be the hangup in legalese when reading it at first. However, when I read through it, I seem to agree with Bob. There's nothing that affects us normal E/AB'ers. The only one that's really confusing is 5(c)(1), where an SLSA converting to an ELSA would have to be in compliance with 91.327(b)(3)/(4).

But in general, tearing through the legalese, I don't see any new passenger restriction on the rest of us.

As for what Chris pointed out about passenger warnings, that'd be covered by the placard that we all carry on our panels anyway, as far as I can read.

Nothing out of the ordinary, move on?
 
I assure you it's NOT a typo. It's confirmed and goes into effect 03/31/2015. (NOT April 1st).
Obviously the writers have no clue about the real world.
In the new order, ALL operating limitations are lumped together with each paragraph (55 of them) tagged as to what category they apply to.
It's obviously a problem that will be addressed, but how long will that take.
Like I say, the order goes into effect next week!
Believe it or not, my FAA supervisor suggested that I contact EAA headquarters. It seems that nowadays EAA has more power than the FAA who actually writes the rules. Ironic?
If it is an April Fool joke it's the first one I've seen perpetrated by the Federal Government.
We DARs have been given our marching orders and told to implement them.

I read it differently Mel

I think it says that limitation is only applicable to paragraph categories A, B, and C (research and development, showing compliance, and crew training).

Others can read it for them selves in appendix C of THIS document.

Note, it is still identified as being a draft. Maybe with some comments the will rewrite to make that a bit more clear.
 
I also saw a proposed provision that severely limits or prohibits operation over congested areas and in defined airways, and under IFR.

Any of these provisions, if they actually stand, remove much of the utility of EAB aircraft and could spell the death of the industry.

Those got fixed, as best I can tell.

Regarding congested areas/airways: "Flight over a densely populated area or in a congested airway is authorized for the purpose of takeoff or landing; or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to make a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground."

Regarding IFR: "Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in ? 91.205(d) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 91. All maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records and include the following items: date, work performed, and name and certificate number of person returning aircraft to service."

It looks like the draconian restrictions on electric aircraft were taken back out. I still wish they'd fix the part about all turbojet aircraft requiring type ratings/LOAs and defined maintenance programs--I'd love to have some kind of tiny little jet-launched glider or something.
 
The only one that's really confusing is 5(c)(1), where an SLSA converting to an ELSA would have to be in compliance with 91.327(b)(3)/(4).

I'm pretty sure that's just saying you have to be all caught up with safety matters and in proper configuration before you make the conversion. A similar requirement has been tossed about for the proposed Primary Non-Commercial category (which would more or less let you do the same thing to a certified light airplane--if it's ever implemented, anyway).
 
Martin is correct in his reading of the document. As far as I can see only high risk aircraft are prohibited from carrying passengers. Maybe I am missing something?
 
I read it differently Mel
I think it says that limitation is only applicable to paragraph categories A, B, and C (research and development, showing compliance, and crew training).
Others can read it for them selves in appendix C of THIS document.
Note, it is still identified as being a draft. Maybe with some comments the will rewrite to make that a bit more clear.

Don't know what you are looking at. This is not a draft. It goes into effect 03/31/2015.
I'm talking about paragraph 43. Applies to 191(d),(e),(g),(h),&(i).
 
Don't know what you are looking at. This is not a draft. It goes into effect 03/31/2015.
I'm talking about paragraph 43. Applies to 191(d),(e),(g),(h),&(i).

Mel, but the passenger restriction is only applied per paragraphs 3 & 5c of the appendix.

5. c. Aircraft with very high risk factors or safety of flight issues must have those factors properly mitigated. Restrict operations to a specified geographical area, and prohibit the carriage of passengers, flight over densely populated areas, and night or instrument flight rules (IFR) operations in the following:
(1) Aircraft for which the applicant has surrendered a special LSA airworthiness certificate (§ 21.190) and is applying for an experimental airworthiness certificate (§ 21.191) for the first time, and is not in compliance with § 91.327(b)(3) or (4);
(2) Aircraft for which the manufacturer’s or country of origin’s emergency checklist requires bailout or ejection in the event of an engine or other system failure;
(3) Any aircraft in which a single system failure will render the aircraft uncontrollable, such as an airplane with a hydraulic flight control system with only one hydraulic pump;
(4) Aircraft unable to comply with § 91.117(a) in normal cruise configuration; and
(5) Rocket-powered aircraft.
 
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Don't know what you are looking at. This is not a draft. It goes into effect 03/31/2015.
I'm talking about paragraph 43. Applies to 191(d),(e),(g),(h),&(i).

Correct, Mel. However the Notes/Applicability/Responsible Office column of Paragraph 43 says, "Issue if applicable, refer to paragraphs 3 & 5c of this appendix."

Paragraph 5c, as others have pointed out, specify that passenger carriage be prohibited in five types of aircraft (or aircraft with safety of flight issues or high risk factors). Properly built, our RVs do not fall into any of those five types. So then Paragraph 43 does not apply.
 
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Mel contact me please!!

OK, You've waited for it. The new order 8130.2H here.
Beginning 03/31/2015 operating limitations will all get a new look.
And you AIN'T gonna like 'em.
In addition to many other changes, op lims issued 03/31/2015 and later will prohibit the caring of passengers for all EAB and ELSA during phase II.
Yep, I said phase II. That's like for the life of the aircraft.

I've tried contacting FAA from my local office to Oklahoma City. No one will respond.

We all need to make noise!

Mel,

I am "on this" with our head person at EAA who deals with the "head people" at FAA.

What we need is the specific paragraph that states this if you could please.

I tried a link and tried to find it but probably overlooked it.

The goal is to make sure that an "administrative change" is done immediately!!!

Thanks!

James

jclarkmail

over there at ...
gmail

803-238-2113
 
April Fools'

... op lims issued 03/31/2015 and later will prohibit the caring of passengers for all EAB and ELSA during phase II...

This is a joke.

Some FAA employee with too much time on his hands worked up an April Fools' joke and accidentally released it.

Only two hours and already 28 responses. Wish I would receive even a quarter as many to a question I posted 24 hours ago. Sheesh.

In any case, this isn't coming from any official I ever elected. I'm not going to change my caring of or for my passengers.
 
Dan,

Part 91 flying for business purposes. Or more for Kahuna and the air show guys, using them semi-commercially for paid air shows.
 
I would read paragraph 43 as:

"Issue if applicable" gives the inspecting party the responsibility to decide if the limitation will be issued.

Paragraph 3 gives him/her the power to do so.

Paragraph 5c gives him/her a guideline.
 
Mel,

I am "on this" with our head person at EAA who deals with the "head people" at FAA.

What we need is the specific paragraph that states this if you could please.

I tried a link and tried to find it but probably overlooked it.

The goal is to make sure that an "administrative change" is done immediately!!!

Thanks!

James

jclarkmail

over there at ...
gmail

803-238-2113

Link provided here.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA_Order_8130_2H.pdf
 
Where are you seeing a paragraph 43?? From what I see this document starts at paragraph 100 on page 1-1 (which is page 14 of the pdf kahuna linked). I would like to share in its (mis)interpretation but I am lost!
 
Where are you seeing a paragraph 43?? From what I see this document starts at paragraph 100 on page 1-1 (which is page 14 of the pdf kahuna linked). I would like to share in its (mis)interpretation but I am lost!

Appendix C covers Ops Limits (paragraph 43 of table c-1)
 
Don't know what you are looking at. This is not a draft. It goes into effect 03/31/2015.
I'm talking about paragraph 43. Applies to 191(d),(e),(g),(h),&(i).

I wasn't very clear...
What I meant was THIS document, which was an earlier draft, had totally different language on paragraph 38 (which seems to be the compliment to paragraph 43 in the final document). I have a feeling a mistake was made while developing the final issued version.
 
Where did this come from?

No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose of meeting the requirements of § 91.319(b) during phase I flight testing, and for recreation and education during phase II operations. (4)

Is it me, or should the 'unless' be an 'if'?
Flight over a densely populated area or in a congested airway is authorized for the purpose of takeoff or landing; or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to make a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground. (46)

Or, they could just refer to FAR 91.119
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
 
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Is that met by the passenger placard?

No. My CURRENT op limits require me to advise passengers of the experimental nature of the airplane. I guess for those who don't read, or choose not to....
=====
Even if all this is not a typo or mis-interpretation, I don't think it affects current operating limitations. Just new ones?? If this were true it would make current EAB values sky rocket; only future new airplanes would be worth less.
 
Paragraph 475 (d)(1) and also (e) mention the passenger briefing... I think someone is rushing so a false conclusion or I hope so.
There are a lot of changes on exhibition aircraft or a dual class airworthiness certificate.

Jack
 
Where are you seeing a paragraph 43?? From what I see this document starts at paragraph 100 on page 1-1 (which is page 14 of the pdf kahuna linked). I would like to share in its (mis)interpretation but I am lost!

OK, I think I figured out PART of the problem here...Mel is talking about a "paragraph 43", but there's no *paragraph* 43. There is a NUMBER 43 entry in Table C-1. Note the column headings, and the sub"-heading that says "The following limitations apply only during Phase II".

Line No. 43
Certification Basis: 191 d, e, g, h, i
Notes/Applicability/Responsible Office: Issue if applicable, refer to paragraphs 3 and 5c of this appendix
Limits: The carriage of passengers is prohibited.

So we then follow the paper trail back.
FAR 21.191 d, e, g, h, i are as follows:
Exhibition
Air Racing
Operating amateur-built aircraft
Operating primary kit-built aircraft (I don't even know what this is :) )
Operating light-sport aircraft

so that covers E-ABs; now look at Paragraphs 3 and 5c:

Paragraph 3 gives general info on issuing limitations from the table.
Paragraph 5c says, however, when to mitigate certain high-risks by "prohibit[ing] the carriage of passengers, flight over densely populated areas, and night or instrument flight rules operations *in the following*:" (emphasis added)
it then lists the 5 cases discussed (surrendered LSA in exchange for ELSA or something like that, planes that require bailing out or ejection, planes that become uncontrollable in the event of a system failure, planes that don't meet 91.117a, and rocket-powered planes). ****. There goes my plans for my own personal X-15.

So unless you have some whacked-out DAR who thinks he HAS to apply this limitation, it doesn't look like it's applicable to run-of-the-mill E-ABs.
 
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OK, I think I figured out PART of the problem here...Mel is talking about a "paragraph 43", but there's no *paragraph* 43. There is a NUMBER 43 entry in Table C-1. Note the column headings, and the sub"-heading that says "The following limitations apply only during Phase II".

Line No. 43
Certification Basis: 191 d, e, g, h, i
Notes/Applicability/Responsible Office: Issue if applicable, refer to paragraphs 3 and 5c of this appendix
Limits: The carriage of passengers is prohibited.

So we then follow the paper trail back.
FAR 21.191 d, e, g, h, i are as follows:
Exhibition
Air Racing
Operating amateur-built aircraft
Operating primary kit-built aircraft (I don't even know what this is :) )
Operating light-sport aircraft

so that covers E-ABs; now look at Paragraphs 3 and 5c:

Paragraph 3 gives general info on issuing limitations from the table.
Paragraph 5c says, however, when to mitigate certain high-risks by "prohibit[ing] the carriage of passengers, flight over densely populated areas, and night or instrument flight rules operations *in the following*:" (emphasis added)
it then lists the 5 cases discussed (surrendered LSA in exchange for ELSA or something like that, planes that require bailing out or ejection, planes that become uncontrollable in the event of a system failure, planes that don't meet 91.117a, and rocket-powered planes). ****. There goes my plans for my own personal X-15.

So unless you have some whacked-out DAR who thinks he HAS to apply this limitation, it doesn't look like it's applicable to run-of-the-mill E-ABs.

OK I just read through the new order and agree completely. Appendix C, table C-1, item 43 says "if applicable" for the pax prohibition based upon criteria listed Appendix C para's 3 and 5c. The only time where I can see this would be applied to typical kit built aircraft like RV's is in case's where the builder strayed significantly from the plans, and while otherwise eligible for airworthiness certification, the inspector, in their estimation believes the aircraft in its modified form to be high risk IAW para 5c. YMMV....:cool:
 
DAR guidance from the FAA

This is what was sent to me, a DAR-T.
Vern

'The subject order is posted on the Regulatory Guidance Library with an effective date of March 31, 2015. There are several changes to include new definition of Original and Recurrent Certification, Former Military Aircraft and operating limitations for all aircraft certificated as Special Airworthiness Certificate are now listed in the appendix. We in AFS-640 will be working on a short briefing on the significant changes that pertain to designee training soon and will be post on the Designee Registration System. We will send another mass email at the time when this briefing is available. Ultimately, you need to follow the directive when performing your duties during airworthiness activities and this is your responsibility to get familiar with this new revision.'
 
Night VFR

Unable to find any verbiage that permits Night VFR during Phase II. Yes I see the IFR allowed when .... but I see nothing that permits Phase II Night VFR.

Am I missing something?
 
EAA Headquarters working on it ...

Being looked into at EAA Headquarters.
Work with FAA underway.
See note back to me below:


James
-----
This is clearly an error in the wording of the new order. They are willing to fix very quickly. Setting up a conference call with AIR and AFS later today.

This was only supposed to apply to high performance jets in Exhibition.
 
Unable to find any verbiage that permits Night VFR during Phase II. Yes I see the IFR allowed when .... but I see nothing that permits Phase II Night VFR.

Am I missing something?


Same place: Appendix C, Table C-1, Item 41, top block.

"Day VFR flight operations are authorized.

Night flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in ? 91.205(c) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 91. (41)"
 
Gary, #41 first clause, second paragraph after Day VFR are authorized. The usual "night is authorized if you have the equipment" is listed there.

Getting past the weird wording of 5c, James, I think the next big hangup we have is probably #4, where Phase II now explicitly only allows recreational & educational flights.
 
Gary, #41 first clause, second paragraph after Day VFR are authorized. The usual "night is authorized if you have the equipment" is listed there.

Getting past the weird wording of 5c, James, I think the next big hangup we have is probably #4, where Phase II now explicitly only allows recreational & educational flights.

I am sure there will be a scrubbing of it to make sure that there is no adverse on planes like ours.

The relationship between EAA and FAA is good. And I do believe that the team will work together to make sure that all is good.

Sometimes we humans make errors. I suspect this is one that will get corrected soon.

Thanks everyone for the "heads up!". Especially the emails directly to me.

James
 
Getting past the weird wording of 5c, James, I think the next big hangup we have is probably #4, where Phase II now explicitly only allows recreational & educational flights.

Just curious, but what other type of flight do you think should qualify that does not fall under recreational & educational flights? Being that 21.191(g) specifically makes operating for education and recreation the prime criteria for E-AB certification: "21.191(g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation."
 
Getting past the weird wording of 5c, James, I think the next big hangup we have is probably #4, where Phase II now explicitly only allows recreational & educational flights.

That's always been there!
First sentence of limitation #1 in the current op lims.
 
Operating primary kit-built aircraft (I don't even know what this is :) )

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/airworthiness_certification/sp_awcert/experiment/expt_operating/
Operating kit-built aircraft: to operate a primary category aircraft that was assembled by a person from a kit manufactured by the holder of a production certificate for that kit, without the supervision and quality control of the production certificate holder.

Apparently, Primary Category was supposed to be a less-restrictive set of rules that you could certify light aircraft (single-engine piston, 200hp or less, 2,700lb or less, stall 61kt or less). It would have allowed a wider scope of owner-performed maintenance. However, it doesn't appear to have worked out; my guess is the costs of certification and manufacturing compliance weren't really any different.
 
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