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What would you do differently?

Weefle

Well Known Member
I am about to embark on a RV 10 build as soon as my tools and empanage kit arrives.

My question to other builders is....if you were to build again what would you do differently? I’m mainly looking at construction techniques, other tools, homemade jigs to make things easier, etc.

In talking with a few other builders it seems like there are differences in the way they did their projects, tools they used and so on.

Thanks for the input.
 
Service Loops!

I would have put some service loops in my Dynon harnesses so that I could access the connectors while the Dynon is sitting in my lap rather than having to lay on my back under the panel cussing and swearing! Total brain fart!
 
I would more carefully consider which mods I really wanted, and which just seemed cool. They all add cost, time, and usually weight. Vans designs a nice airplane. Aside from a couple things like the plane around third latch, you can build a very nice airplane from plans.

The added time comes from figuring out how to do the mod, as well as how it now interferes with other things in the plans you weren’t expecting.
 
I made a jig for quickly dimpling the ears on nut plates with the DRDT-2. But if I was building again I’d look hard at the special very shallow head rivets, and countersink the skin rather than dimple.
Everyone swears by the tungsten bucking bar. I don’t have one.
I don’t have a drill press or a band saw. Hand held jig saw worked okay.
I did have a pneumatic squeezer, which I really liked.
 
band saw and drill press

I made a jig for quickly dimpling the ears on nut plates with the DRDT-2. But if I was building again I’d look hard at the special very shallow head rivets, and countersink the skin rather than dimple.
Everyone swears by the tungsten bucking bar. I don’t have one.
I don’t have a drill press or a band saw. Hand held jig saw worked okay.
I did have a pneumatic squeezer, which I really liked.
I would buy both a drill press and band saw. I have the drill press, but not the saw, and I missed it. Also agree on the mods - every change from the plans adds a lot of time.
 
I would make the seat cushions in the back one piece so when the wife and the dog are sleeping in the back, they don't have a hole between the cushions, under them.
 
I am about to embark on a RV 10 build as soon as my tools and empanage kit arrives.

My question to other builders is....if you were to build again what would you do differently? I’m mainly looking at construction techniques, other tools, homemade jigs to make things easier, etc.

In talking with a few other builders it seems like there are differences in the way they did their projects, tools they used and so on.

Thanks for the input.

A lot of it is personal. Do you value time over cost? Do you have the room for more tools?

tools: beyond the stuff that van's lists as required, a tungsten bucking bar is well worth the $120ish.

A couple rolls of blue masking tape is nice to have on hand to hold rivets and protect the work.

You will need about 50% more 3/32" and about 25% more 1/8" clecos than what Van's recommends unless you work on one section and one side at a time. Doing both elevators at once will use up all of them.

A 4000 rpm pneumatic drill is far more comfortable to use than an electric and does a better job. Although if your kit has final-drilled holes you probably won't use it much!

Drill press is optional but nice. A mill would be even nicer than the drill press and save a bit on layout time and will increase accuracy.

It's also nice to have a center drill to start holes in the thicker stuff.

Band saw is also nice but optional. I'd probably look at getting a handheld metal saw and an aftermarket stand for it over getting a traditional band saw.

I like having a pneumatic squeezer but others hate them.

A (digital) caliper will let you double check drill bit diameters and double checking of your marks and other tasks.

jigs: really depends. If it's something you only do a couple of times it's generally not worth making a jig IMO.

There are a couple of places where you'll be doing the same mark over and over (cutting stiffeners to length in the ailerons for example). Cutting the end of a craft stick (3/4"x6") straight and drilling a hole for a rivet to locate it for marking will save you an hour easily.

A jig or guide for marking j-stiffeners will save quite a bit of frustration and time (i used craft sticks again with a hole in it for the sharpie).

I used a furring strip and cut an angle in it to countersink the trailing edge but there is also a jig you can buy. Van's also recommends a tapered pilot for countersinking those on the 14 but I haven't had much issue with the regular pilot.

I use other bits of furring strip to hold parts for cutting in the band saw. Again with the aileron stiffeners I could put them on the strip and follow my previous cut to rough shape the taper. Finished up on the 1" strip sander.

Some sort of tubing holder is nice to have once you get to making the push/pull tubes.
 
But if I was building again I’d look hard at the special very shallow head rivets, and countersink the skin rather than dimple.

These are NAS1097 rivets. Get a bunch of 3-3.5, 3.4.

Access panels are worth it, although can be done later. Door seals took up a lot of time, stick on ones prob could have sufficed honestly (Carl Froehlich did this I believe).

Use the search, lots of other ideas also
 
Order the finishing kit when you order the QB kit. The doors are in the finishing g kit and you need them to fit the top correctly.
 
Numatx

I WOULD do this again. Order the Numatx rivet gun. Not cheap but well worth the cost, in my opinion. I built a "4" and I'm now building an RV-10. Never liked the bulk and weight of the other pneumatic squeezers out there, but the smaller weight, size and power of the Numatx squeezer makes it well worth the expense.
 
I WOULD do this again. Order the Numatx rivet gun. Not cheap but well worth the cost, in my opinion. I built a "4" and I'm now building an RV-10. Never liked the bulk and weight of the other pneumatic squeezers out there, but the smaller weight, size and power of the Numatx squeezer makes it well worth the expense.

That is one nice looking tool and the weight and size would definitely be advantageous. Unfortunately my pneumatic riveter is already on the way or I would have opted for this one.
Thanks for sharing!
 
I WOULD do this again. Order the Numatx rivet gun. Not cheap but well worth the cost, in my opinion. I built a "4" and I'm now building an RV-10. Never liked the bulk and weight of the other pneumatic squeezers out there, but the smaller weight, size and power of the Numatx squeezer makes it well worth the expense.
Very cool, lightweight-looking tool. Wish I'd have known about this one! My squeezer arrived today.
 
Lots of good answers here:

https://vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=166693

I'm not done yet, but to echo what some others have said, stick to the mods that are absolutely necessary for you. Especially if you are a new builder. You don't fully appreciate pre-made parts and precise instructions from Vans until you're trying to integrate an aftermarket mod and need to fab all of your parts.
 
I'm a bit torn on this, but I honestly wish I had more -10 builders (or just other builders) stop by more often. I'll admit I'm perfectly happy and a little proud of doing 99% of the work myself. I will reach out when I really get stumped (even after reading VAF, searching YouTube, or reading other build logs). I'm sure that a lot of my frustration and re-work could have been avoided by having someone stopping by more frequently to talk me through the process / help explain some of the nuance that I may have obviously missed.

I'm only a few months away from moving to our EAA hangar so I expect I'll get plenty of free advice and inspections to point out anything I missed :)

Fancy tools are great, and I have a bunch. They do make life a little easier, but not to the point where I would say they are "must haves". (I'll say a harbor freight rivet puller may rise to a "must have" looking at cabin floor!)

Some of the things I wish I did earlier:
- Installing a mini-split (AC/Heat) in my garage/workshop sooner
- Installing more LED lights in the shop

I will also agree with others, every mod or upgrade has consequences (both in time, and budget). Really think through where you want to spend your resources and the benefits of each change.
 
So this is where I’m getting a bit perplexed.

When I look at all the mods one can do on a 10.... I have to wonder what is absolutely a no brainer or a nice to have.

Will the stock Vans brakes fail in 100 hours hence upgrade now

Will the stock fuel valve work fine

Will using piano hinge for cowl mount be a PITA down the road so do Skybolts now.

McMaster door seals vs what Vans recommends.

I’m all for doing things once and right the first time , does anyone fly with a bone stock 10?
 
As I am waiting on the empennage kit I have similar questions. It is quite likely that new builders will need to just move ahead and learn by experience. (like everyone else)

My question:

In the interest of:
1. Keeping the costs reasonably controlled.
2. Flying within the next decade.

What kind of plan could be put together to build a great plane that can be upgraded later with minimal downtime during upgrades.

Example: would anyone run refrigerant lines and perhaps a dual pulley with the idea that AC could be added later....thereby preserving 8k.

Could a lot of the interior panels be added later...possibly buying an interior kit later.
 
Mods

So this is where I’m getting a bit perplexed.

When I look at all the mods one can do on a 10.... I have to wonder what is absolutely a no brainer or a nice to have.

Will the stock Vans brakes fail in 100 hours hence upgrade now

Will the stock fuel valve work fine

Will using piano hinge for cowl mount be a PITA down the road so do Skybolts now.

McMaster door seals vs what Vans recommends.

I’m all for doing things once and right the first time , does anyone fly with a bone stock 10?


These are just my opinion and my experiences...

It's not whether Vans brakes will fail in 100 hours it's that they are too small for the RV10 weight. Ya, you shouldn't need to push hard on the brakes but if you need to abort a takeoff or stop faster because of a deer or something on the runway they are undersized and can fade out.

The stock fuel valve will work but it doesn't look as nice, that's about it.

I have the piano hinges and love them. They work just as good as new after 1100 hours. The others look nice too. One mod I know that helps on the cowl is fitting nutplates/screws and on the bottom sides. I guess the old hinge pieces there would crack out. Not sure if Vans changed this down the road.

Mcmaster seal is super nice and stays on the cabin top. I've seen stock seals which are attached to the door and flop around and get stuck between the guides. I'm sure there are some good fitted stock seals but the mcmaster seal makes it easier to completely seal up the door and the hinge pockets to keep the warm/cool air from leaving or coming in. MAkes it quieter too in most cases.
 
What kind of plan could be put together to build a great plane that can be upgraded later with minimal downtime during upgrades.

Example: would anyone run refrigerant lines and perhaps a dual pulley with the idea that AC could be added later....thereby preserving 8k.

Could a lot of the interior panels be added later...possibly buying an interior kit later.

Tough question. Once you are flying, you can absolutely tear back into the cabin to do upgrades, but do you really want to?

For the panel, you can absolutely do some pre-work to make life easier down the road. (Build as a VFR with room to grow to IFR? Buy older model garmin/dynon/whoever model? Maybe pre-wire for stuff you expect to use in the near future?)

I'm sure you could put in an overhead console after the fact, but it would be a huge pain in the rump. Gravity works against you and fiberglass dust sucks in a finished interior. Interior panels or center console, maybe be easier to retrofit.

I would not specifically recommend installing AC lines now for a future upgrade. Easy enough to run them in the center tunnel to retrofit later if needed. (Depending on who you get it from I'm sure).

Everyone has their own opinions and wants. Half the fun (at least for some of us) is trying to figure out what works for you.
 
I made a jig for quickly dimpling the ears on nut plates with the DRDT-2. But if I was building again I’d look hard at the special very shallow head rivets, and countersink the skin rather than dimple.
Everyone swears by the tungsten bucking bar. I don’t have one.
I don’t have a drill press or a band saw. Hand held jig saw worked okay.
I did have a pneumatic squeezer, which I really liked.

Can someone expand on this? Is he saying counter sink everything vs dimpling?
 
Can someone expand on this? Is he saying counter sink everything vs dimpling?

First, my issue was that dimpling with my dies could sometimes hit and damage the center, threaded section of a nut plate. The jig just furnished the female die with clearance for the center section. (Some builders grind a flat on the side of the die instead).
Second, if I did it again, I’d buy the special rivets (someone else posted the AN number) that are 3/32” countersunk, but the countersink head is very small and shallow (in this application it’s nearly all shear, little tension). The needed countersinking is so shallow that it can be done in typical wing and fuselage sheet thickness. So you countersink the skin for the shallowhead rivet, no dimpling required for the ears of the nutplate.
 
Dimpling nut plates is greatly simplified by just grinding down an edge of the die. The die can still be used for normal dimpling but taking down one edge (a bit less than a third) will allow you to dimple nut plates from start to finish without damaging a single one. Wish I could post a photo right now, it is easier shown than described.
 
Dimpling nut plates is greatly simplified by just grinding down an edge of the die. The die can still be used for normal dimpling but taking down one edge (a bit less than a third) will allow you to dimple nut plates from start to finish without damaging a single one. Wish I could post a photo right now, it is easier shown than described.

Cleaveland sells a small diameter female die for this purpose. With shipping runs $26.
 
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