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From Steam to Glass

DanB

Active Member
I am at a crossroad in building my panel and was wondering if anyone here has actually
made the switch to an all glass panel? I have an EFIS as well as an EIS
(EMS), yet I still feel the need (want) to put the steam air speed &VSI next
to it. If you have gone through this "weaning" process...how was it? Do you still feel the need for (a round) speed? <g>
Thanks,
Dan B, Mesa AZ
 
We mixed both ... but after a year i never find my self looking at the steam guages, they are there for backup. With glass (at lease the D10) you get all your information in one screen ... no scanning required.
 
Dan, I feel your pain!

From what I hear, coming in 2007 all Cessna Skyhogs will be all glass! It is certainly the way of the future! For us to build new airplanes (especially with the performance of an RV!) with steam stuff is LUDICROUS!

That being said, this stuff IS experimental. OTOH, what is in a word?

Sooooo, having backups is something the certified world seems to be worthwhile. The question is, what do you need for backups?

This is what I would have if my pockets are as deep as my thoughts!

My panel.jpg


Of course, this is all hypothetical and I may not have the funding to do it all like this. However, it is the best of both worlds!

What is your take on it?

:) CJ
 
All Glass

Dan,
I?m a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane. I went all glass and have no regrets. You can find my other post to see my panel. GRT all the way.
 
what if you want to be IFR? Can you go all glass without breaking the bank? The rules say that in the failure of any one component you have to be able to complete an instrument approach and missed approach... I guess you could put in two Dynon units on seperate electrical circuits?
 
Started off with my panel design having steam backups. Then weaned myself
off of them during the design phase. Now all glass. I don't think I could
ever fly behind steam again. Once you go glass you won't go back.
 
IFR?

Deams, Walter, are either of your aircraft IFR equipped? I'm just wondering if an IFR all-glass panel is within the realms of financial reason.
 
Thanks Guys

I appreciate the responses...Walter, do you have backups in glass then? I'm planning on using a D100, yet I don't want to flip for another EFIS to back that up. In this case, doesen't it sound prudent to put at least a steam airspeed indicator in?
Thanks,
Dan
 
I must be conflicted.

Back in the dark ages (two years ago) when I designed my panel I went through the same thing as you. In those days, EVERYONE called you crazy if you even thought of leaving the "old school" stuff behind. Heck, I even had people tell me I was nuts to rely on an electric EMS. "What happens if you loose electric power?" they would ask. My reply was simple, "As long as that big hunk of metal out front continues to make noise, I don't care of everything goes dark!"

The truth is, the AS, Alt, slip ball, and wet compass (not shown in this picture) are light and don't add much to the empty weight of the plane. As for a VSI, that is the least needed back up instrument of them all, IMHO.

Here is a picture of my final version:
 
Certified glass

When I look at the panels of the new certified glass planes, it seems they mostly have the same back-up instruments, sometimes in 2 1/4 inch size.

Airspeed
Altimeter
Artificial Horizon

...and no other round dials. I would presume the A/H would have a redundant power source, but I'm not sure. With the experimental glass EFIS (EFII?.. :) ..) usually having built in emergency batteries, the back-up instruments could just run off the regular aircraft power....

It seems like this may be a good starting point for redundancy calculations and IFR panel planning.

gil in Tucson - sticking to VFR for now... :)

- but off to the Flight Safety Challenger/Learjet simulator ride I won in a raffle at the 99's Tucson reasure Hunt.. yeah!
 
Dual Dynon

prkaye said:
what if you want to be IFR? Can you go all glass without breaking the bank? The rules say that in the failure of any one component you have to be able to complete an instrument approach and missed approach... I guess you could put in two Dynon units on seperate electrical circuits?

You can have a dual Dynon D100 and D180 system for around $6000 less probes and other optional options.

This gives you two totally redundant EFIS's and one engine monitor.

The battery backup options eliminate the need for redundant electrical sources.

Seems like the economical choice to me!
 
Need 'em for IFR

I've never seen a computer that didn't crash ... even my iPod craps out regularly. I intend to get my IFR ticket once my plane is flying. For day VFR you could be safe without backups but for night VFR or IFR I wouldn't even consider it.

Here's the nearly final layout that I'm going with in my -7A. The instrument cutouts are in progress.

panel_11222006.jpg


-Rick
 
You'd still need two independent systems for doing instrument approaches... dual IFR-GPS? What's the most economical of these units?
 
All certified aircraft flying with glass panels have steam backups. That's
because those aircraft are certified with the steam as primary. The glass is a
backup instrument. I don't think a single ga ac has been certified with the
glass as primary.

So yes, my ac is IFR. Backup instruments include the autopilot, AOA, GPS,
multiple bus electrical system. Basically everything other than the EFIS
is a "backup system". That's how I look at it.

Link to my panel. The two round dials are: TT AP, Clock.

http://www.rv7-a.com/Img_5313.jpg
 
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DanB said:
I appreciate the responses...Walter, do you have backups in glass then? I'm planning on using a D100, yet I don't want to flip for another EFIS to back that up. In this case, doesen't it sound prudent to put at least a steam airspeed indicator in?
Thanks,
Dan
You could use the EIS for airspeed if you wanted to. I'll use the AOA
instead when the EFIS goes tu. That tells me everything I need.
 
Panel

rickmellor said:
I've never seen a computer that didn't crash ... even my iPod craps out regularly. I intend to get my IFR ticket once my plane is flying. For day VFR you could be safe without backups but for night VFR or IFR I wouldn't even consider it.

Here's the nearly final layout that I'm going with in my -7A. The instrument cutouts are in progress.

panel_11222006.jpg


-Rick

Rick, who's making the composite panel...is it from Laird Owns.
 
All certified aircraft flying with glass panels have steam backups. That's
because those aircraft are certified with the steam as primary. The glass is a
backup instrument. I don't think a single ga ac has been certified with the
glass as primary.

This is an interesting statement. I recall a similar statement being posted in a thread sometime back and one poster sent this opinion to Garmin. As I recall Garmin replied and strongly refuted that position and stated that their glass systems are indeed certificated as "primary".

But...in spite of running numerous searches of the forum, I can't find that post. So I guess my recollection will still have to remain in the suspect file.
:eek:

You could use the EIS for airspeed if you wanted to. I'll use the AOA
instead when the EFIS goes tu. That tells me everything I need.

Sorta. Its true an AOA indicator is all you need for landing the plane (I rely on the LRI for backup airspeed when landing) but an AOA won't assist in an instrument scan enroute if you end up flying on backup instruments. As all IFR-rated pilots know, the airspeed indicator is an important part of the instrument scan when flying partial panel.

In response to the original inquiry about transitioning from steam gauges to glass, I experienced this firsthand when my RV-6 first took to the air. Even though limited to VFR, the only pitot instruments in my panel were the RMI uEncoder and a small analog airspeed indicator. It took a few hours to get accustomed to reading a digital readout of airspeed, altitude and vertical speed, but once the brain was recalibrated, analog gauges seemed crude. The analog airspeed indicator was removed from the panel and replaced with the LRI.

panel_07-06.jpg


Another interesting observation: Because I have used the uEncoder for all ~800hrs in the RV-6, I still primarily refer to it for airspeed and altitude even though there is a Dynon running right above it (the LCD numerals in the uEncoder are larger and bolder). But....I've found that as soon as I put on a hood for some practice IFR, my scan naturally centers on the Dynon and all pitot info is pulled from it. This is not something I do intentionally, it just happens. Must be some human factor or ergonomic stuff (fear???) going on that makes me concentrate only on the Dynon when I am forced to fly the attitude indicator.

So, yes, you can adjust to glass instruments, and once the adjustment is made, I don't think you will want to go back to analog. This makes me wonder if the most efficient and most easily grasped setup when in a stressful situation would be duplicate glass backup instruments so our brains wouldn't have to shift gears from glass to analog.
 
A lLittle Caution

At first transitioning to Glass is like taking a drink from a fire hose. There is just so much information in front of you. But you soon learn to prioritise which information you need at any moment and where to find it.
The IFR thing is a different matter.
Whether you have Steam or Glass IFR it is a much more demanding business than VFR; though Glass will give you extra and more integrated information to make the task a little easier.
As one who flew Heavy Metal, I must say that I admire those who regularly fly an RV IFR. Doing an instrument approach to minimas in moderate turbulence in a small unstable platform (bouncing) RV would tax the most competent pilot. Though I welcome anyone to tell me otherwise. (From my perspective it is a lot harder than with the stability afforded by a few hundred tons of airframe.)
I don?t think it should be considered without an autopilot, as there are so many other demands besides flying the aeroplane. Reading let down charts, changing frequencies, Set Minimas, running checklists etc. All this assuming you don?t have any failures. Rough running engine, airframe ice or whatever.
Obviously, you need to ensure you have redundancy- which is what a lot of this post is about- whether it be steam or glass. And, as has been pointed out, the backup at least ought to be certified.
Well, so should the pilot. Not as mentally ill, but IFR qualified and IFR CURRENT and this means covering up the main instruments and flying on the BACKUP; regularly and sufficiently that you can fly a WHOLE approach comfortable, on the back up.
Anyone who perceives this ramble as that of a retired heavy metal driver, should know that I scared myself plenty of times years ago when flying in GA. And recently.
My RV-7 is all glass and VFR. (Which meant I couldn?t use a hole saw for anything in the panel and had to tediously cut and file square holes.)
I recently took off from a friend?s farm airstrip, in what I judged to be VMC. Once airborne in rain I found that there was no horizon- the rain and cloud blended together and the cloud base was not discernable. The vis was such the I could only see the ground below and nothing ahead. The steeply sloping windscreen, covered in rain, added to the vis difficulties. As I had the departure field as the ?Destination? in the GRT GPS MAP, I wheeled around to where it should be and all I could see all the way down to 100? was the cone markers of my mates grass strip, in a world of grey. Oh for the HIAL (High Intensity Approach Lights) I had been looking at for all those years.
I have rarely been so glad to put an aircraft in a hanger.
Out there are some very experienced IFR RV flyers. Their experience in Flying IFR should be sought, as much as their advice on how to build an IFR Panel. And a lot of the knowledge would be useful in panel design; such as where or where not to place components.
I would be really interested if someone could relate an experience of flying a let down to minimas in bad light and rain in their RV. I think now would be a good time to hear from them.

Pete.
 
Captain Avgas said:
Rick, who's making the composite panel...is it from Laird Owns.

Yes it is. Laird hooked me up with it earlier this year. Adam at Experimental Air is in the process of making the metal inserts for it right now. They'll be water-jet cut once the CAD work is complete.

-Rick
 
glass panel

I've got a Dynon D-100 and a Garmin 196 in my panel. I still have to add my GRT-4000 for engine monitoring. I'll have a Day-night VRF cross-country glass-panel setup.
 
rickmellor said:
Yes it is. Laird hooked me up with it earlier this year. Adam at Experimental Air is in the process of making the metal inserts for it right now. They'll be water-jet cut once the CAD work is complete.

-Rick


Your panel has a nice balance. Did you have to move the standard RV ribs sideways to accomodate this set-up. If so would it be possible for you to post a couple of pix to indicate how you achieved this.
 
Substructure Rework

Captain Avgas said:
Your panel has a nice balance. Did you have to move the standard RV ribs sideways to accomodate this set-up. If so would it be possible for you to post a couple of pix to indicate how you achieved this.

I'm not quite that far yet. I'm working to get the wings on the fuselage for the first time over the weekend. We'll see how that goes. :cool:

I do expect that I'll have to move some stuff around behind the panel. I'm not sure yet what all it will entail. I do know that I'll need to do custom mounts for the GRTs because I'm using the 6.25" radio stack units on the flight instruments panel. The radio stack casings don't have any kind of flange. I needed to use these cases because I wanted to push them closer together and upwards to make room for the round backup instruments.

I'm glad you like the panel. It's the result of countless hours/months of tweaking. There are a few things not quite right with this image. For the EIS I'm going to modify the bezel and make it a flush mount to better match the EFIS units. The flanges on the EIS will be removed. The standby COM will be an SL-30 so I'll have backup NAV. The switches/annunciators/breakers, etc. are still works in progress but the electrical system is a Bob Nuckolls special so that mostly defines it. I'll also have a separate compass and I've also got an AOA from Advanced Flight Systems that will go on the windshield center brace.

I can't wait to see what all of this looks like with the Classic Aero interior! :rolleyes:

-Rick
 
failure

Ok Folks.... Someday you will have a full electrical failure.... YOU WILL HAVE A FULL ELECTRICAL FAILURE. So please please have some steam gauges for backup. This just happened to a rv-9a friend of mine. It was well thought out... with backup... but the display went out and he's grounded. We could ask the cirrus guys who had a full electrical failure but they hit the ground and are no longer around.
Brian Wallis
 
Brian, let see here, I've got glass along with a battery bus, main bus and essential bus out of AeroElectric along with battery backup in my Dynon. I also a handheld GPS with battery and handheld radio. OK, I've got to have the alternator run wild at the same time the battery blows up.........while at the same time the Dynon internal battery goes #$#'s up........while the handheld GPS craps out while I'm in the clouds. Seems if all that happens, the big ol ATC guy in the sky just punched my ticket.......it's been a good life:) Seriously, design the system and live with it. It's all a tradeoff.

BTW, I do have ASI, ALT and VSI steam but no other atitude indicator.

Brian: don't take this the wrong way, it was not meant to be anything more than a discription of all that would have to go wrong. You know how sometimes things come across much different than face to face on these forums. Truly not meant to be that way, but read that way when I reread it.


brianwallis said:
Ok Folks.... Someday you will have a full electrical failure.... YOU WILL HAVE A FULL ELECTRICAL FAILURE. So please please have some steam gauges for backup. This just happened to a rv-9a friend of mine. It was well thought out... with backup... but the display went out and he's grounded. We could ask the cirrus guys who had a full electrical failure but they hit the ground and are no longer around.
Brian Wallis
 
Last edited:
brianwallis said:
Ok Folks.... Someday you will have a full electrical failure.... YOU WILL HAVE A FULL ELECTRICAL FAILURE. So please please have some steam gauges for backup. This just happened to a rv-9a friend of mine. It was well thought out... with backup... but the display went out and he's grounded. We could ask the cirrus guys who had a full electrical failure but they hit the ground and are no longer around.
Brian Wallis
Since we can't ask them, how do YOU know the Cirrus guys had a full electric failure? Can you site this full electric failure in the Cirrus of which you speak? The Cirrus ALL ELECTRIC design is VERY good and there has still has not been any Cirrus, except the first test aircraft and the one that had just had aileron maintenance, that has crashed due to a systems problem.

Obviously your friend's system was not well thought out enough. If you have a FULL ELECTRICAL failure in an all electric airplane then something is wrong with the design. What kind of backup?

A well though out ALL electric airplane should have at least TWO separate buss, two batteries and ideally two alternators. A single display and no backup, steam gauge or otherwise, is not a very well thought out system.

My plane/panel will be ALL Electric with dual buss, dual batteries and possibly dual alternators. It will have "steam" gauge backups but they will also be electric. What is your defination of "steam gage backup"? Do you propose the implementation of a failure prone vacuum system? Or are you just of the anti glass panel crowd?
 
Glass Panel

DanB said:
I am at a crossroad in building my panel and was wondering if anyone here has actually
made the switch to an all glass panel? I have an EFIS as well as an EIS
(EMS), yet I still feel the need (want) to put the steam air speed &VSI next
to it. If you have gone through this "weaning" process...how was it? Do you still feel the need for (a round) speed? <g>
Thanks,
Dan B, Mesa AZ
Dan. I tried to insert a picture of my all glass RV3B panal. It is foolish to try to fly hard instruments in an RV. I see no need to revert to 1930's instruments ( Vaccum pump ) when we are in the 20 th Century re ( 777 ). Much more reliable... CU Dick
 
Mark one eye ball.

How many have pondered if they would be able to pull off a return, circuit and landing without any instruments at all?
And could you find an airport following a total electrical failure enroute; with a chart, compass and a watch.

For this is the final backup.
Pete.
 
refinement

brianwallis said:
Ok Folks.... Someday you will have a full electrical failure.... YOU WILL HAVE A FULL ELECTRICAL FAILURE. So please please have some steam gauges for backup. This just happened to a rv-9a friend of mine. It was well thought out... with backup... but the display went out and he's grounded. We could ask the cirrus guys who had a full electrical failure but they hit the ground and are no longer around.
Brian Wallis


Ok (donning my fire resistant suit) Let me explain... Someday in your flying career you will have an electrial failure of some sort. In NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM did I state that you will blow up in the sky and fall to pieces..... (ie.".. please have SOME steam gauges for backup)" You may have an electrical item that malfunctions and drains the battery... even with the alternator working. Hopefully it will pop a circuit breaker. My friends display quit working on the ground.... ok... so we will replace it... and keep going. We all know that each one of our airplanes is different.... in construction and systems. Maybe somebody gets something wrong... we are all human. So please dont flame me. I'm human and I make mistakes.... Maybe I was wrong to say you will have a full electrical failure.... I have... and I know others have too.
I know many people that have had a partial elec failure of some sort. If we spread our eggs around instead of all in one basket... we are better off.... so before you hold yourself above the crowd and assume you will never have an electrial failure.... remember that lightning is still out there.... and it may fancy your airplane or mine and blow out everything.... (I certainly hope not!!) As far as the cirrus guys go... I will do some research. but I believe there was a cirrus that had an electrical failure when IMC and they hit the ground. I dont know everything... and I never will, so I will apologize to those I offended. As far as electrical failures... I do believe some airliners have had full electrical failures of their glass cockpit.... rare... but it has happened before. So if it happened to them... we are not immune either.
lets play nice
Brian
 
Almost done with Glass Panel

I am still waiting for my TRU-TRAK 2 1/4" ADI to be shipped from Tru-TRAK and I now have the GTX-327 Transponder in the hole since this picture was taken.
It was tight and it took us several different layouts to get it all to fit.





Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO Building in Wichita, KS
RV9-A 942WG (reserved) slider
RV9-A 942PT (reserved) tip-up with glass panel
 
Last edited:
w1curtis said:
Help me understand this. Why? :confused:
Try flying over the Cascades in the winter. Ice on the wings and propeller and the canopy is iced over. Doesn't do much good to shoot an ILS if you can't see to land..Just some No's for HARD IFR in an RV.. CU Dick
 
Richard L Bentley said:
Try flying over the Cascades in the winter. Ice on the wings and propeller and the canopy is iced over. Doesn't do much good to shoot an ILS if you can't see to land..Just some No's for HARD IFR in an RV.. CU Dick
OK, that's a little bit clearer. Hard IFR for me does NOT include flying any single (RV or other) without anti-ice, in visible moisture below the freezing level. Hard IFR for me includes solid IMC for most of a flight as long as there is no ice or T-storms in those clouds. This, I see no problem with in an RV. Which is why I asked the question.
 
I'm not flying yet, so can't comment about how it works in the air, but the install was straight forward, Their install manual is terrific, I've got about 40 hours 'experimenting with it on the bench and live the functionality. I'm not sure what you meant bout 'experimantal' My primary interest in them was due to their being able to display more information concurrently then any other EFIS. My take is dealing with them is that they are great engineers but not the best marketeers.
 
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