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Beware the Boogeymen....

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
When I started building my -8, I read every builder's web site and on-line forum I could find for ideas and tips. I quickly came to the conclusion that there were a number of tasks in the build that scared the willies out of people - stories of canopies gone wrong, cowlings that wouldn't cooperate, and builders being eaten by blobs of pro-seal....

Boogeymen - those creaturs that we use to scare small children (or, more accurately, that older siblings use to scare younger siblings... :rolleyes: ) are ever present. However, like most fearsome creatures, they generally evaporate with the light of day, or a little knowledge. I wonder how many people are reading these forums, sitting on the fence about building because they are afraid of the boogeymen?

As I progressed through my kit, I found that the vast majority of awful tasks didnt live up to their reputations. Of course, everyone has slightly different fears - some hate plumbing, and love wiring - and for others, it is the opposite. Personally, I enjoyed almost all of the tasks and skills I learned along the way - although those that are highly repetative are generally lower on my list....

Maybe we can help open the drapes and let some light in for people that haven't quite conquered those fears yet. One good way to make the fears go away is to simply talk about them.

In the spirit of the season (Halloween is just around the corner...), how about a list of the Boogeymen - and what helped you to get past them?

Here's my first....The RV-8 Canopy! "Oh woe to the person that makes a bad cut, or slips with a drill and makes a crack!" :eek:

Certainly, this is a huge-looking part of the kit, and ruining it must be the lowest point in a builder's career. Or such was the impression I got from the collective wisdom. How did I conquer the fear? By realizing that you can buy a replacement for about $350 - a tiny, tiny portion of what I was spending on the airplane - and repeating maybe 20-30 hours of work. Not something that I looked forward to, but if it should break, it wasn't going to be the end of the world, throw the airplane in the dumpster and take up knitting....

Next fear?

Paul
 
I'm still finishing up my empennage, so I've got lots of boogeymen on deck. I guess what I fear most isn't actually part of the construction, except for a general wariness of making mistakes I don't know about yet. What I fear most is that by the time I finish this project, I'll have no place to fly it. AOPA articles about user fees and the ATA's push to essentially privatize ATC and exclude GA from any airspace the airlines use or airports they service are showing up as news on websites I'd never expect, like fark.com.

That and messing up the wing spar to center section drilling operation. That one scares the ^%$# out of me.
 
Painting

That highly skilled profession that no one in their right mind would even consider doing...Especially to an $85,000 airplane...Would you paint a new car?...Are you nuts?

Thata what I thought, looked at a few options NOT doing it myself, then dug up my old philosophy on doing new things which goes like this...

"Whatever has been done on this planet has been done by someone who has the same attributes you do...I.e two arms two legs and a brain" (Of course some are much less fortunate.

So then its a case of..."OK I can do it" but how much training will it take and is it worth it?

Then a friend of mine encouraged me and basically I lerned on the project.

Can't tell you the satisfaction of folks who now want to pay ME to paint their airlpanes and cars...:)

Frank

7a
 
I fear every next step. Just because I have never done it before. But worst than that, I fear that I may do something unsafe and not know it.
 
I agree with Paul

Every new task just required studying what had to be done, geting a success oriented mind set and methodically plodding on. Every completed task was well document in my builder's log and corresponding photo album and the successes were savored. I was especially proud of the canopy. I bought no replacement parts from Van's.

Bob Axsom
 
Rudder TE

After reading some internet comment about construction of the rudder trailing edge, I had visions of ending up with an aluminum pretzel. I checked a few builders' web sites, and studied the plans, then dove in.
When it was finished, I bet I checked it 5 times looking for any curves. It's straight as a laser ( I used one to check it).
With 4,800+ RVs flying - you don't have to be a rocket scientist to build one. Although, in Paul's case, it doesn't hurt.
 
Riveting, not pulled rivets but real driven rivets! Who could ever do that? And what, something like 18,000 of them someone told me?

I actually ordered a preview set for the RV9A and when I got it and looked through it I decided it was a bigger task than I wanted to tackle. It just looked overwhelming. I sent them back. I hated it, I had never been one to back down from a challenge. That was in March of 2005.

That summer my son Luke and I went to OshKosh and looked over many many airplanes. The RV was what I wanted after looking. Luke and I went to a workshop on building a metal airplane. After that it was all downhill, the workshop was just what we needed to give us the confidence to proceed. I ordered the empennage kit as soon as we got home even though the shop wasn't even close to ready. Finally got started in September of 2005.

The people we talked to at Osh and those who put on the metal workshop are the reason I decided to go ahead and do it. They all said the same thing "if you really want to do it, and have any mechanical ability, you can."

Several friends and neighbors think I'm nuts. That just makes it even more fun!
 
Proseal, the black death

When I started my 8A, I heard many stories about how difficult it was to fabricate the fuel tanks and to handle Proseal, a noxious paste of black death. Pshaw! First of all, Proseal is not all that noxious. I have seen some people don the moon suit and respirator to work with it, but that is more than a little over the top. I simply opened the door of the basement and used a box fan to keep the air moving out the door. It worked great. The MEK you use to clean up is more "aromatic" and probably worse for you than the Proseal. In any event, a little ventilation is more than adequate to work with this stuff. Second, Proseal is sticky. Just buy two boxes of rubber (or vinyl) gloves, donate an old sweatshirt to the cause, and you will be fine. The greatest fear I had was riveting in Proseal. I thought that I would not be able to visualize the shop head or to buck a rivet hidden in black goo. It aint that big a deal. If you are a little scared, use a riveting buddy. He or she can shoot and you can buck. Most bucking is done by feel, and this is no different. After the rivet is bucked, you can feel if it is right. You can even put the gage on it and simply clean off the gage at the end of the night. If I learned any tricks, it is to use lots of blue painter's tape (Home Depot) to mask off those areas you do not want to have to clean. At the end of the night, simply pull off the tape and then clean the rest of the areas with 2" squares of cotton cloth (cut up old long sleeve shirts) soaked in MEK. When you are done with the tanks, you will wonder what all the wailing and nashing of teeth was about. So, if you are dreading starting your project because of the fear of black death, fughettaboudit.
 
Fiberglass

I have to say I dreaded the fiberglass work, and after doing a little of it (elevator tips, wheel pants, canopy skirt) I still do not look forward to it. I'm sure it's just a question of education and training, but even after watching all the fiberglass videos I can find, I still hate it. I'm really not looking forward to the cowl at all.

I believe my particular problem with fiberglass is that I have absolutely no artistic talent at all. I'll probably fly an expert over from the US to help me finish up my fiberglass.

Fiberglass is one boogeyman I have not yet slain!
 
Like Henry said

Like Henry Ford said " if you think you can do a thing ,or you think you can't do a thing you are probably right" I can't imagine any invention , discovery or project that did not have the potential for failure. I heard once that one of two things will happen if you try something ,you will either fail or succeed but there is only one outcome if you don't try. By the look of the great aircraft we are producing I would say we are largely a group that will overcome the obstacles involved.

RV 8 Fuselage
 
Back in the "olden days" when I started my -9, I asked another builder who was about ready to fly what the most difficult task was and his reply is a classic:

Whatever I have to do next.

Over the past few years I have really learned to understand what he was saying.
 
The Fiberglass boogey....

rv8ch said:
I have to say I dreaded the fiberglass work, and after doing a little of it (elevator tips, wheel pants, canopy skirt) I still do not look forward to it. I'm sure it's just a question of education and training, but even after watching all the fiberglass videos I can find, I still hate it. I'm really not looking forward to the cowl at all.

I believe my particular problem with fiberglass is that I have absolutely no artistic talent at all. I'll probably fly an expert over from the US to help me finish up my fiberglass.

Fiberglass is one boogeyman I have not yet slain!


After all the help I got from your website Mickey, I have to try and help you get rid of this boogey....I sympathize on the lack of artistic ability - heck, I'm an engineer, not an artist! How am I supposed to make lines flow and blend....
Here are the things that helped me come to terms with the glass work:

1) If you put too much goop on, you can always sand it off.
2) If you don't put enough goop on, you can always add more.
3) Power sanding tools are an engineer's friends! They take the work out of it, and make it a mechanical task. Especially on the cowl, an orbital disk sander and a contractor's box of disks will see those large flat surfaces done in no time.
4) The West Systems pumps are great - no guess-work!
5) If you screw up and cut too much off an edge, you can build it back on (kind of like #2 above).
6) Heat lamps, used carefully, can take the waiting out of the game.
7) Microballons cover all sins.....

I'm no expert Mickey, but if you want to pay my way to Switzerland, preferably during ski season, I'd be happy to come and help you get over the hurdle! ;)

Paul
 
The Canopy

Great thread Paul.

For me it was the Canopy. Not only because it is the biggest single piece but because the of reputation and the undeniable fact that one of the last things you have to do is what is likely to cause the damage, Drilling.

Sure enough, the LAST hole I drilled caused a crack. I'm living with it.

The other issues are the baffling and cowl. Both of these are more of a nuisance than a really boogeyman.

One of the greatest fears of builders and probably the simpliest to overcome is the fiberglass work. Pretty easy, Conquer it!!
 
Fiberglass

Ironflight said:
...

1) If you put too much goop on, you can always sand it off.
2) If you don't put enough goop on, you can always add more.
3) Power sanding tools are an engineer's friends! They take the work out of it, and make it a mechanical task. Especially on the cowl, an orbital disk sander and a contractor's box of disks will see those large flat surfaces done in no time.
4) The West Systems pumps are great - no guess-work!
5) If you screw up and cut too much off an edge, you can build it back on (kind of like #2 above).
6) Heat lamps, used carefully, can take the waiting out of the game.
7) Microballons cover all sins.....
Great tips - I recall you mentioning using power tools to sand the fiberglass, but I half thought you were kidding. It really seems like a great idea - plus I get to buy more power tools! :)
Ironflight said:
I'm no expert Mickey, but if you want to pay my way to Switzerland, preferably during ski season, I'd be happy to come and help you get over the hurdle! ;)
Careful - I might take you up on the offer! You can ski all day, and sand all night! :)
 
The Boogeyman is a lurker!

I have found the Boogeyman sits next to me while i am lurking... He constantly sits next to me whispering in my ear:

"Its too EXPENSIVE"
"You will never REALLY finish it"
"Your wife (ver 2.0) isn't going to be HAPPY after you get serious about it"
"It just doen't make SENSE to build/own a plane"
"The mistress in the garage will take TIME away from your wife and 5 kids"

Blah, Blah, Blah...

The hardest part for me has been to ultimately make the commitment to build, and that step for me has been to buy the tools. After that, for me, there will be no looking back. Like advertising to others your commitment to marriage, buying a ring. Its out there for everyone to see. Will it last? Expectations and Doubts abound...

With that being said the boogeyman is now gone.
Tool kit arrived today. No remorse, no looking back. Now just a sigh of relief that the MAN is gone.

A sincere, heartfelt thanks to all of you for the inspirational messages (none of which were directed towards me personally) that helped me want to make a mark on this world and embark on a journey few others would dare tread.

A special thanks to D.R. for providing this forum.
and to Robert Frost:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference
 
I've conquered the wife ver 2.0 boogeyman - but the checkbook still has me a little worried... :D
 
I had all the same boogeymen as the rest of you. The fuel tanks, the canopy, drilling the rear wing spar attach point, fiberglass (which I'm STILL battling). But there was one I wasn't quite prepared for. I read all the travel stories an constantly dreamed and planned out on paper everywhere I could go in a day at RV speeds. I was so looking forward to flying! But I wasn't ready for the first-flight boogeyman.
 
I traveled from califorrnia to new mexico to pick up a partially completed rv-7a whose builder had passed away. Had a couple beers and a hot bath in the hotel the night before, but still tossed and turned all night worried that I was spending a huge chunk of change on a project that was way over my head, when all I really wanted to do was fly, not build. Went ahead and did it anyway, and now my biggest worry is exactly what Im going to do with myself once the build is actually over. I dont feel normal unless I can put in a few hours on the plane.

By the way, for those that fear the fiberglass, have you seen the basic fiberglassing tutorial? See

http://rv8a.tripod.com/fiberglass.html

Its really quite good. I got results that impressed others my first attempt by following the tips there.

Erich Weaver
 
Test flying the thing!

I love building and think about it non-stop. I'm only 50% done and I'm already working on planes #2 & 3 in my head. My biggest concern is that after I've got it all put together that I have to prove that it works. I wish I could skip from the inspection to about 40 flight hours later. :)

-Rick
 
engineering drawings

The boogeyman in my garage (let's just call him a consultant for second-guessing) is that I haven't reached perfect resonance with understanding the drawings. There's a sort of shorthand in labeling and drawing things that I'm only slowly picking up; and, I'm a bit concerned that I'll overlook or misread an important step.

My approach is to look alternatively at the instruction steps then the drawings, making notes on the drawings and color coding with various highlighters. I must admit that I kind of enjoy this, however. There's a little mystery with each step, and the challenge of thinking things through is fun.

My tentativeness is, as you might guess, quite time consuming. My building is progressing much too slowly.
 
reading plans.

I imagine that my years of reading model airplane plans as well as technical drawings his helped me considerably in understanding the plans from vans. My brother however, without the same experience, has much more difficulty understanding the plans. Another comment I can make is that I do see considerable improvement in plans for the later models. The plans and instructions for my 4 are not as clear as the plans for my brothers 7A.
 
And look where you are now!!

I fear every next step. Just because I have never done it before. But worst than that, I fear that I may do something unsafe and not know it.

The perfect career for you :D:D

I was looking for something else and . . . . came upon this thread. Anything can be broken down to tasks and simple unknowns - testing, training, and preparation is something we can do.

"Fear is the mind killer"
 
The paint your plane boogeyman

That highly skilled profession that no one in their right mind would even consider doing...Especially to an $85,000 airplane...Would you paint a new car?...Are you nuts?

Thata what I thought, looked at a few options NOT doing it myself, then dug up my old philosophy on doing new things which goes like this...

"Whatever has been done on this planet has been done by someone who has the same attributes you do...I.e two arms two legs and a brain" (Of course some are much less fortunate.

So then its a case of..."OK I can do it" but how much training will it take and is it worth it?

Then a friend of mine encouraged me and basically I lerned on the project.

Can't tell you the satisfaction of folks who now want to pay ME to paint their airlpanes and cars...:)

Frank

7a

Frank,

Thank you for sharing! This is so meaningful to me as I am riding the "paint your plane" roller coaster. From the beginning I was sure I would paint the plane myself. After almost completing the emp, I started thinking I would be nuts to put all this work and money into the project, only to put a crappie paint job on it when I was done. You see I have been painting the interior parts with a two part epoxy paint, and learning along the way. Sometimes I love the result, and other times, I am wishing I could do it all over. That started me rethinking if I should paint the exterior.

I started looking into hiring a shop, and as with most things aviation was shocked at the cost. I thought $10k, would get me something nice, boy was I dreaming. Now I am rethinking, and am once again interested in painting myself. However, I realize I need training, and may be someone that can help as a consultant. Books like "How To Paint Your Own Airplane" are nice, but there is a large gap to fill where theory is put into practice. Not sue where I am going to get the added training, or find the right consultant, but that is where my current thinking is headed.

I am thinking of paining it in pieces, using aviation paints, and a home build booth. How did you approach the actual painting, and any training, or support you needed?

Mike
 
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Painting

Frank,

Thank you for sharing! This is so meaningful to me as I am riding the "paint your plane" roller coaster. From the beginning I was sure I would paint the plan myself. After almost completing the emp, I started thinking I would be nuts to put all this work and money into the project, only to put a crappie paint job on it when I was done. You see I have been painting the interior parts with a two part epoxy paint, and learning along the way. Sometimes I love the result, and other times, I am wishing I could do it all over. That started me rethinking if I should paint the exterior.

I started looking into hiring a shop, and as with most things aviation was shocked at the cost. I thought $10k, would get me something nice, boy was I dreaming. Now I am rethinking, and am once again interested in painting myself. However, I realize I need training, and may be someone that can help as a consultant. Books like "How To Paint Your Own Airplane" are nice, but there is a large gap to fill where theory is put into practice. Not sue where I am going to get the added training, or find the right consultant, but that is where my current thinking is headed.

I am thinking of paining it in pieces, using aviation paints, and a home build booth. How did you approach the actual painting, and any training, or support you needed?

Mike

Not Frank. Sorry. I probably shouldn't respond. Anyway.

I have painted a car or two and painted all my fiberglass parts on the plane. All the aluminum will be vinyl wrapped. Painting is totally within our capabilities. A few tips.

1. Buy more paint than you need. It's difficult to match batches. Even gallons mixed at the same time can look different. Substrate also effects color. Paint will often look a different color on fiberglass vs metal. Expect some vig numbers $$.
2. Paint parts as much as possible. The bigger the piece, the harder it is to lay down a good finish. I've sprayed cars in parts. No one can tell the hood, trunk, fenders, etc were sprayed in separate sessions. An airplane can be done if you mask at seams. The paint lines would be noticeable but only looking very close. I would spray the whole plane in parts then Cut & Buff as a whole. Practice on the smallest parts first. Easy to sand and try again. Work up in size.
3. Study Dan's Cut & Buff method. It works. Lay down an extra coat to allow for cut & buff. Stay away from bumps, dimples, edges, etc. You will cut right through the paint quickly. Work those areas gently after the bigger areas are done. Almost any imperfection can be removed. Drips, orange peel, etc. It's quite exciting to see an ugly paint job turn into a show car finish. The first airplane parts, wing tips, were really orange peeled. After cut & buff, I actually got kinda emotional. They came out beautiful. I bought a big Dewalt for compound and polish. Really goes fast.
4. Pick a product and practice on scrap. Usually that means all the products from primer to clear. All products are a little different. Experiment with reduction temps, reduction rates, gun settings, etc before shooting on airplane parts.
5. Find someone who knows the product and ask questions or watch a session. They know the tricks.
I shoot Kirker paints so not much help. EnduroPrime 2K epoxy primer and UltraGlo single stage urethane. Lots of photos on my blog.
 
I shoot Kirker paints so not much help. EnduroPrime 2K epoxy primer and UltraGlo single stage urethane. Lots of photos on my blog.

Larry,

Thanks for the reply...

BTW, I'm using EnduroPrime for the interior parts priming.
 
Kirker Ultra Glo

Larry,

Thanks for the reply...

BTW, I'm using EnduroPrime for the interior parts priming.

If that's the case, buy some Ultra Glo and spray some stuff.
It comes in single or two stage. I shoot single stage and like the results.
I use slowest activator and reducer. I also use their fish eye drops. I have a spreadsheet I use to calculate quantities. It's handy for adjusting ft² and reduction. Typically about 2ft² per mixed ounce with about 10% reducer by total volume. It's on my blog for download.
 
Paint Society on u tube

Lots of good insight and info. You can’t practice enough. By the time you finish, your work will be better than when you started, so 3 coats of clear and cut and buff is your friend.
 
How times have changed....

First time seeing this thread....

I'm looking at Paul Dye's first post talking about RV-8 canopies.

"By realizing that you can buy a replacement for about $350"

Today's price is $1700.

Inflation calculator says today's dollar is 1.5x what 2006 dollar was.

$525...hmmm. If my math is anywhere close (and that's always questionable) that's a $783 (2006 dollars) increase.

It'd still hurt to bugger up a canopy....and that's what I have to look forward in the next month...oh joy

In the mean time I've been working the other boogyman....fiberglass (which I actually enjoy).

Laird
 

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