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Demo Flight with Mitch

newamiga

Well Known Member
I went for a demo flight today with Mitch their blue RV-12 out here in the DC area today. First I have to say that Mitch is one of the nicest people I have met. He was great, patient with all my questions and engaged the whole time. We met at the FBO and then went over to the hangar. I had seen this plane down at Sebring, but it somehow appeared even more cool looking in his hangar. I guess maybe the fact that I would be getting a ride in it swayed my opinion :)

We took off and flew out to the practice area near the airport. She handles like a dream. My limited experience has all been in a Gobosh 700. I would say the 12 rides at least and smooth and is just as easy to fly. I was surprised I guess as I just didn't know what to expect. The appearance of the plane was great and it just looked so inviting to take up for a ride. The controls were really responsive, but balanced. The landing was great as well. I guess I lucked out as the storm that came through the DC area cleared out by late this afternoon when we went up.

I am seriously considering the 12 as my new project. I have never built a plane before but my wife and I took the EAA RV builders class this past weekend. I felt comfortable with most of those skills. After talking to Mitch and getting to actually fly in the 12, I am feeling even more confident I could build and fly one.

Mitch and I spent a good little while after the flight exchanging stories in his hangar. I don't know what Van's pays Mitch but it can't be enough :)

Thanks Van's and especially thanks Mitch.
 
I have heard that Mitch is testing the Dynon Skyview in Blue12. Can you confirm this? Any pics? :)

Cheers
Damian
 
I am disappointed that Mich is doing demo flights these days: he should be toiling on the Skyview adaptation for the Sun 'N Fun show! :eek: I had planned to attend Sun 'N fun just to see the Skyview working on the Blue RV-12, now I'm wondering If I should go :confused:

... just kidding!
 
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Carl, in one sense I had an opposite experience from you when getting a test flight with Mitch. It was on Saturday at January's Sebring Expo and the weather basically sucked. It was especially interesting to watch all the LSA's doing their demo flights that day, while the temp FAA tower was consistently reporting a 90 degree crosswind of 13-15G20. Watching the little LSA's take off and land was a bit like watching a low-level air show, as they were almost uncontrollable in the gusts. Patricia remarked right away on how different the RV-12 seemed to be responding as Mitch did some earlier demo flights...and that was certainly my impression when observing the t/o and landing from the cockpit. Mitch seemed a bit put off by the landing - he was crabbing perhaps 30 degrees on short final in the heavier gusts and was bit grumpy about the actual touch-down...but that's because he'd been flying rather than watching the competition. <g>.

The rest of our experience was identical to yours. Mitch represents not just the a/c but also Vans in a professional but also very genuine manner. Vans is lucky. But then, Mitch will tell you so is he!

Jack
 
Go ahead and take the plunge

Newamiga,

Take the plunge when you surface a year from now you'll have a Van's airplane and be glad you did it. No Regrets!!!

Gary
 
RV-12 Vs S-19

Guys,
So I followed up my test flight in the 12 with a test flight in the S-19. I also toured RANS factory.. very impressed. Now I am really on the fence as to which way to go. The 19 flew great and it looks really nice. I am a bit confused too as I read that the 12 is easier to build but it requires solid rivets in addition to puled rivets. The 19 appears to only require pulled rivets. I am not saying the solid ones are hard, just not quite as easy as pulled from my observation and very little actual experience (I took the RV builders class).

I have watched the RV-12 empennage builders video and it looks pretty straightforward. I have also ordered and received the manuals set for the S-19 and intend to review it this weekend to get a better feel there.

I know these are only minor things, but I really liked the circuit breakers vice fuses in the 19. The plane also felt a little more roomy inside. I know it is heavier and that is the biggest fault in my book. I need the usable weight. Ok I need to lose weight too :)

I guess it is a good problem to have to have two great planes to choose from. I just want to make that choice soon so I can start building.
 
Do your homework.

How many S19s are flying vrs RV12s? How long to receive first sub kit. It's a EAB not a ELSA. How many actual parts for S19 did u see sacked on shelves in factory? 50% deposit vrs 25% while waiting for submit. It does take longer to build. Directions are not as good as Vans!
 
Probably one of the biggest factors that put me towards an RV 12, was numbers: 719 empty wt, 1320 gross.
 
Both are nice planes

I also considered the S-19 way back before the RV-12 was available. I do not know how much of a head start the S-19 had, perhaps a year or more. It did not take long for the RV-12 to catch up and pass the S-19 in kit sales. Why? The RV-12 is easier and quicker to build.
The RV-12 has excellent visibility looking down and forward.
The RV-12 has excellent step by step plans with lots of pictures.
If registered as an E-LSA, the RV-12 will have a higher resale value because the new owner can do her own condition inspection (after taking a 16hr course). Rans will not supply the paperwork necessary to register the S-19 as E-LSA.
How many S-19s are flying and why is it taking so long to build them?
The RV-12 has removable wings. Read how this helped one RV-12 complete a cross country trip: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=518380&postcount=1
Talk with RV-12 and S-19 builders who are half way through their projects to find out how they like the plans and the kit and their progress.
If you are sitting on the fence, choose the one that will be easiest to build.
Joe
 
John.. the factory actually did have quite a few kit parts in stock. I haven't been to the Van's factory so I can't compare one to the other. The current wait is about 3 weeks for the empennage kit. I agree there are less flying right now. Clearly Van's has sold more RV-12 kits. I guess it is a relatively new thing but you can in fact build the S-19 as E-LSA now that they have their S-LSA approved. The rules are the same as the 12, you have to build exactly as their S-LSA factory model. One big difference of course is that the kit doesn't come with the complete panel kit as the 12 does. I really like both planes. I also really like both builders communities. There seems to be great support on both sides of the fence. All of those factors just make the choice that much more difficult.

I agree totally on the usable weight. That is weighing heavily (no pun intended :)) in the decision.
 
Joe.. thanks yeah I saw that article about the unconventional cross country. Pretty impressive. I never really thought about the removable wings as a big plus until I read that.



I also considered the S-19 way back before the RV-12 was available. I do not know how much of a head start the S-19 had, perhaps a year or more. It did not take long for the RV-12 to catch up and pass the S-19 in kit sales. Why? The RV-12 is easier and quicker to build.
The RV-12 has excellent visibility looking down and forward.
The RV-12 has excellent step by step plans with lots of pictures.
If registered as an E-LSA, the RV-12 will have a higher resale value because the new owner can do her own condition inspection (after taking a 16hr course). Rans will not supply the paperwork necessary to register the S-19 as E-LSA.
How many S-19s are flying and why is it taking so long to build them?
The RV-12 has removable wings. Read how this helped one RV-12 complete a cross country trip: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=518380&postcount=1
Talk with RV-12 and S-19 builders who are half way through their projects to find out how they like the plans and the kit and their progress.
If you are sitting on the fence, choose the one that will be easiest to build.
Joe
 
Also go to the builder's forum for any other AC you are considering, see if it has the depth of assistance available here. You'll get same-day help here.

Another huge benefit to the RV12 is the pricing and availability of replacement parts from Vans. Drill a hole in the wrong place or ding a part, they will send a replacement right away and pricing is very reasonable.
 
Fuses are better

Fuses are safer because they will open a faulted circuit quicker than breakers. If a fuse blows, fly the plane and wait until you are on the ground to troubleshoot. The Dynon and GPS have internal backup batteries. But if you insist on having circuit breakers, you can register your RV-12 as E-AB and build it any way that you want. Or you can register as E-LSA and legally make any desired changes AFTER certification.
Not to worry about solid rivets. There are not that many of them and a rivet squeezer does not require as much skill as a rivet gun.
Joe
 
Gary... Thanks yeah I suspect I will need some spare parts :)

Joe.. thanks I am far from an expert when it comes to airplane electrics and appreciate the insight. My only real experience comes from what I have been flying in training, the Gobosh 700 and it has breakers. I also had over 5000 flying hours in the AF (not as a pilot) and we always had breakers. I think it just predisposed me to them. I hadn't really thought about post certification swapping them out. Good point.

Thanks Carl
 
manufacturer has to provide form 8130-15

I guess it is a relatively new thing but you can in fact build the S-19 as E-LSA now that they have their S-LSA approved.
Did Rans tell you that? The S-19 was S-LSA approved a long time before the RV-12 was. In order to register as E-LSA, the manufacturer has to provide form 8130-15. When I talked with Randy a few years ago, he said that he would NOT provide that form, due to liability concerns, unless the S-19 was built in his factory under their supervision. Has he changed his mind?
Joe
 
I asked all those same questions from jetguy to Rans TWICE, got no response to the two emails and phone calls

Now I feel I am building the right plan the VANS RV 12
 
Yes they told me that it could be built as E-LSA as long as I matched their S-LSA. I had thought going in that E-AB was the only option on the S-19 as well until I went to the factory.
 
For what it's worth: Things that influenced my choice

The Rans 19 has a useful load 100 pounds less than the RV12. Each person would need to weigh 50 pounds less.

If I remember correctly, the Rans 19 rib flange holes are not pre-punched, and must be matched drilled from the surface holes.

I found it hard to determine the Rans 19's total cost to take it to flying status.

The Rans 19 has been available longer than the RV12, but I do not know how many customer built ones are flying.

Mykitlog.com has several of both being built. An examination of the different builder's sites provides a lot of insight.

My test flight in the RV12 was very impressive, did not fly the 19.

-Dave
 
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You are right Carl

There is one S-19 registered as E-LSA. Check out the links below.
Out of the seven S-19s that have Rans listed as the manufacturer, one is experimental. The other 6 must be factory-built S-LSAs. Of course that one E-LSA could have been purchased as S-LSA and then converted to E-LSA later. I would get it in writing that form 8130-15 will be provided.
It is 90 to 1. Van's wins. :D
Joe
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/AcftRef_Results.aspx?Mfrtxt=VAN%27S+AIRCRAFT&Modeltxt=RV-12&PageNo=1

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/AcftRef_Results.aspx?Mfrtxt=RANS&Modeltxt=S-19&PageNo=1
 
Warning Wil Robenson!

Carl after looking at Joes links. 90 RV12s to 6 S19s would indicate a big red flag in buying one. S19 released fall of 2007, RV12 spring 2008.
 
Yes they told me that it could be built as E-LSA as long as I matched their S-LSA. I had thought going in that E-AB was the only option on the S-19 as well until I went to the factory.
I asked Randy at OSH this year whether he was going to offer E-LSA.

Exact quote: "Why would I want to take on that liability?"

I pointed across the road at Van's and said, "Because he has."
 
To be fair

To be fair to Rans, there could be several E-AB S-19s flying that I do not know about because the manufacturer of an E-AB aircraft is the home-builder, not Rans. I do not know how to search the FAA records for all of the individual builders. The FAA records that I provided links to above do not include E-AB, only S-19s registered as S-LSA (and 1 E-LSA that might be converted from S-LSA).
The purpose of my above post was to show that Rans does NOT allow a home-builder to register their S-19 as E-LSA compared to Vans who does allow the RV-12 to be registered as E-LSA.
Joe
 
To be fair to Rans, there could be several E-AB S-19s flying that I do not know about because the manufacturer of an E-AB aircraft is the home-builder, not Rans. I do not know how to search the FAA records for all of the individual builders. The FAA records that I provided links to above do not include E-AB, only S-19s registered as S-LSA (and 1 E-LSA that might be converted from S-LSA).
The purpose of my above post was to show that Rans does NOT allow a home-builder to register their S-19 as E-LSA compared to Vans who does allow the RV-12 to be registered as E-LSA.
Joe

Joe,
There are a few E-AB S-19's registered. The way to find them is the same link you used only leave out the manufacturer and just put in the model number. Also shows how many RV12's are EAB. The total RV12's flying is higher than 90.:)

Pete
 
Thanks for that tip Pete

A search of FAA records resulted in the following:
S-19: 6 of S-LSA, 1 of E-LSA (converted?), and 18 registered as E-AB
RV-12: ? of S-LSA, 1 converted to E-LSA, 90 of E-LSA, and 13 registered as E-AB
There could be more E-AB of each brand if the model is something other than S-19 or RV-12.
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/AcftRef_Results.aspx?Mfrtxt=&Modeltxt=RV-12&PageNo=1

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/AcftRef_Results.aspx?Mfrtxt=&Modeltxt=S-19&PageNo=1
 
N Number

What is the N-number of the converted E-LSA?
mrt890,
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=916PH
RV-12 N number: RVN916PH Operating Light-Sport Prev. issued cert under 21.190. I assume that means converted from S-LSA but could be wrong.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=191VT
S-19 N number N191VT Operating Light-Sport Kit-Built
Since Rans is reluctant to allow the S-19 to be registered as E-LSA, I suspect this aircraft could have been converted from a factory built S-LSA.
Joe
 
RV-12 or S-19?

If it was converted from an S-LSA, wonder how it was certificated as S-LSA to begin with.
mrt890, are you talking about the RV-12 or S-19? In either case, an aircraft has to be built at the factory in order to be registered as S-LSA. I suppose that a manufacturer could let a purchaser build the aircraft in the factory under their supervision and with their assistance.
Joe
 
I'm talking about the -12. Just wondering what the story is behind it originally being certificated as S-LSA.
 
Unless you buy it factory built and all you do is pickup the keys it is not SLSA.

In order for RANS to go ELSA they have to build the SLSA's then have the whole thing tested and certified to be sold as a complete ELSA kit with no deviations. This is something that costs time and money.

FWIW I have a Sport License and exclusively fly LSA, I rent an Evektor Sportstar that weighs in at 712 lbs (steam gauges). I weigh 265 (down from 285 and dropping with each rivet), my flight gear and the stuff in the plane weighs 15 lbs so before passenger (singular of course) and fuel I am at 992 lbs., add 185 lbs for passenger now to 1177. That leaves 143 lbs or 23.8 gal of fuel.

The Evektor has two 15 gal wing tanks so I am still not full fuel. In the 12 I will be able to go full fuel full range assuming i am in the 720 e.w. range.

The S-19 is a nice plane, have seen the factory ones and an EAB they are roomy. They are also heavy. You lose 100 lbs. Which translates into about 7 Gal. of fuel to max G.W with my scenario above.

I chose the 12 due to weight and balance and the desire to put two normal people in it with full fuel and modest baggage and make overnight trips to cool places in the Southwest.

Your Mission and mileage will vary but I researched every available (at least all I could find) kit and couldn't get the same.

FWIW the Sky Catcher fully equipped has the same issue, there is a rental at KFFZ and it is a single place with me in it.
 
Just speculating

Just wondering what the story is behind it originally being certificated as S-LSA.
I do not know that for a fact. I was assuming based on the FAA website that said, "Prev. issued cert under 21.190". And you know what they say about assuming, it starts with ***. :D
Joe
 
Thanks Chris.. just another thing pushing me to the 12.

Unless you buy it factory built and all you do is pickup the keys it is not SLSA.

In order for RANS to go ELSA they have to build the SLSA's then have the whole thing tested and certified to be sold as a complete ELSA kit with no deviations. This is something that costs time and money.

FWIW I have a Sport License and exclusively fly LSA, I rent an Evektor Sportstar that weighs in at 712 lbs (steam gauges). I weigh 265 (down from 285 and dropping with each rivet), my flight gear and the stuff in the plane weighs 15 lbs so before passenger (singular of course) and fuel I am at 992 lbs., add 185 lbs for passenger now to 1177. That leaves 143 lbs or 23.8 gal of fuel.

The Evektor has two 15 gal wing tanks so I am still not full fuel. In the 12 I will be able to go full fuel full range assuming i am in the 720 e.w. range.

The S-19 is a nice plane, have seen the factory ones and an EAB they are roomy. They are also heavy. You lose 100 lbs. Which translates into about 7 Gal. of fuel to max G.W with my scenario above.

I chose the 12 due to weight and balance and the desire to put two normal people in it with full fuel and modest baggage and make overnight trips to cool places in the Southwest.

Your Mission and mileage will vary but I researched every available (at least all I could find) kit and couldn't get the same.

FWIW the Sky Catcher fully equipped has the same issue, there is a rental at KFFZ and it is a single place with me in it.
 
LSA Weight

Sky Catcher fully equipped has the same issue

same problem (too heavy) but different reason (the heavier O-200). Cessna decided they couldn't sell it with a "foreign" engine and then built it in China. Say what?

For the LSA mission, the RV12 leads the pack. No doubt about it. Interesting that CT (the SLSA leader) has decided to build a prototype 4 seater.
 
Ok I am buying a 12!

Ok guys.. thanks for all the valuable inputs. I am placing my order tomorrow for the RV-12 empennage kit. I really appreciate the community on this board.

Carl
 
You may want to rethink your schedule. I started on my tailcone on 3 Feb, was in Oshkosh for a week, and still finished it on Feb 26. I think the lead time for the next kit is like 8 weeks, so you will have to quit building for a long period, not a good thing. It goes fast, I am about done with one wing now, will finish both wings in the next few days and start on the fuselage.
It goes together fast, I have been at it only a month, with a week off for travel, and will start on the third kit in a few more days.

Ok guys.. thanks for all the valuable inputs. I am placing my order tomorrow for the RV-12 empennage kit. I really appreciate the community on this board.

Carl
 
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Good point on the lead time. I have been wondering how long it would really take me to build the tail kit? I will likely be building mostly weekends and not too many weeknights. I travel just about every week. I was hoping to do this sort of just in time delivery of the next pieces. I know this is a trick given the lead time required for Van's and the variable of my build speed. I am also concerned (read the wife is concerned) with the amount of space the unbuilt kit pieces will take up in the garage.
 
Fortunately I had a hanger to store the extra kits, but that is a concern. The stuff is crated very expertly, you can get a feel for size if you go to my kitlog site. One might cover them with a tarp out on the patio or back yard? I guess a storage facility for a month or two might be good too, and you could then store the completed parts there as well as you finish them.
 
Torsten.....quick (dumb) question....if I want to wait for the Skyview avionics kit to be available, do I also have to wait till its available before I can order the fuselage kit....seems like the panel cutouts would be different for the Skyview avionics and isn't the panel part of the fuselage kit??? Appreciate your thoughts....dennis
 
You will probably trash 3 pieces of the (designed-to-be-removable) panel aluminum. But I wouldn't wait because of that (and haven't). Just don't do prep work (i.e. nutplates, etc.) on those pieces. People that get the existing dual dynon option don't use the map box materials that come with the kit either. Its a minor thing and you have a lot of fuselage building before you get to that part.
 
I wouldn't wait and I didn't. I am working on the fuselage right now and looking at how Van's did these things before I'd assume that they will offer a panel upgrade kit that contains what you need to get from the exisiting D-180 layout to the Skyview. They probably credit you for mailing in the unused D-180 parts? But even if not this might cost a few bucks which is nothing compared to losing built time due to waiting. At least in my book ...
 
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