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Under Water Egress Training

Berchmans

Well Known Member
The importance of underwater egress training.

Underwater egress training saved my life and the life of my wife. My wife and I were involved in a floatplane accident. The plane impacted the water during takeoff, flipped over and sank immediately. This is the aftermath of the crash.

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The instructors attempt to convey all of this. They stressed the importance of having a reference point and focusing on it and here is the hard part?waiting, so that your actions can have a chance of succeeding. It does no good to push on a door or pull on a canopy until the plane is completely flooded, it won?t move.

I remembered all of this at the moment it counted. As my head went underwater, I was able to grab my reference point. This happened to be the top latch on the door (a Citabria has two door latches). As the plane rolled, I released my harness and grabbed the other door latch, never letting go of the top latch in the process. I was then able to push the door open and get out. My wife (who had not had the training) was disoriented and trying to get out the side of the airplane that has no door. I was able to grab the back of her survival vest and pull her out the plane backwards. Witnesses on shore said that this all took about 30 seconds. I have no idea how long it took. Another float plane came to our aid about 4 minutes after the crash.

I fly in Alaska, on floats and wheels. Regardless of where you fly however it is always best to be as prepared as you can for any emergency. I cannot stress strongly enough how important underwater egress training is. I absolutely believe that if one of us had not had the training, we would not have survived the event. If you haven?t taken the training, take it. If you have taken it, take it again. I have and will continue to repeat the class. My wife and friends have since taken it too.

One last thing, wear an inflatable flotation vest with critical survival gear in the pockets. You can only count on getting out of the plane with what you are wearing. Any survival gear in the baggage compartment is really just camping gear and it will sink with the plane.

As always I would like to thank the US Coast Guard and local FAA office for putting on this kind of training. I know of two lives it has saved.
 
Egress link

For west coasters at least, you can contact another survivor of a ditching accident, who went on to share survival knowledge and training with us.
Bryan comes highly recommended by those who have taken his class, and he will travel if a flying club signs up enough members, and there is a suitable pool in the area.

http://www.dunk-you.com/

I'm sure those of us who fly overwater, or over mountainous terrain, where the ONLY survivable crash site is a lake or river, would benefit from the training. Heck, it would even help if you flip your bird in a soft field!
 
Marine Survival Training Center

in LaFayette, LA offers a great course. It's mostly offshore oil folks and helicopter crews but it's open to anyone.

I took it because sometimes I fly offshore with Marine Mammal survey groups. It's very worthwhile training and like the opening post said, it's all about remaining calm and oriented after the big splash.

If you fly over water you should take this training. I think it only a couple hundred bucks and a day of your time.
 
in LaFayette, LA offers a great course. It's mostly offshore oil folks and helicopter crews but it's open to anyone.

I took it because sometimes I fly offshore with Marine Mammal survey groups. It's very worthwhile training and like the opening post said, it's all about remaining calm and oriented after the big splash.

If you fly over water you should take this training. I think it only a couple hundred bucks and a day of your time.

Been there, so I could fly to the offshore rigs in my previous life. Well worth the time and effort.
 
This is a timely thread as my wife and I just got back from a vacation to the southern Caribbean. Of course, she wanted to know if "we could fly the RV down" there. My response was "I don't think we could get out if we went into the water".

Taking an egress training course, while highly valuable, does beg the question "can you get out of a tip-up RV if you land in water"?
 
I would think an RV would tend to float for a bit if you have relatively low fuel levels, just from the air in the tank? 20 gallons of fuel burned out of the tanks will give you 160 pounds of bouyancy, maybe not enough to keep it floating but enough to give you time to get out?
 
I would think an RV would tend to float for a bit if you have relatively low fuel levels, just from the air in the tank? 20 gallons of fuel burned out of the tanks will give you 160 pounds of bouyancy, maybe not enough to keep it floating but enough to give you time to get out?

I am thinking that at splashdown, it would flip upside down and then be nearly impossible to open the canopy?
 
SSUSA Underwater Egress Training

For anyone interested, Survival Systems USA is the world's leader in underwtaer egress training. We have served more than 100,00 individuals both militray and civilian. We have two commercial sites, our mian operations in Groton, CT and one in Kenai, AK.
Please check out our website for video of what we do and the services we provide. The testimonials from crash survivors posted on our site say it all.

www.survivalsystemsinc.com

Ben Rayner
SSUSA/Groton
 
Dont forget -------- follow the bubbles

Jimmy Buffett did a great writeup of an underwater escape he was involved in, says that the prior egress training saved his life.
 
Opening any door

Folks its nearly impossible to open any door until the vehicle, is flooded, once flooded a tip up would open like anything else unless you were in shallow water and it came to rest on the canopy.
 
I am thinking that at splashdown, it would flip upside down and then be nearly impossible to open the canopy?
I have given this a lot of thought and even included a ditching procedure in my POH based on input from a friend and fellow RV builder who ditched a Cherokee in the Bahamas with his wife. They both got out safely and were only in the water about 20 minutes, IIRC.

Their key to success was that as soon as they recognized they had a problem they were talking to flight following, which dispatched their resources immediately, even before the engine stopped.

As for getting out of a tip-up RV, based on my friend's description, I will unlatch the canopy and let it float open before hitting the water. This does not change how the RV flies but may increase your RoD.

Then I'm going to try and do a full stall landing just above the water. With the forward momentum of the RV, I suspect the canopy will flip forward and then back. If the RV is like my friend's Cherokee, it will float nose down and once the pressure stabilizes, you should have no problem getting out.

His Cherokee only floated for a few minutes, so don't expect to use your RV as a floatation device.

The other thing my friend said was that he put his life vest on his lap when he knew he was going in and that was the last he saw of it. The thing probably flew to the firewall on impact. If you are not wearing your PFD, you will not have it, is the lesson I took away from that.

Burke,

Great write up and it is good advice you gave. I can't believe anyone got out of that thing alive.
 
Egress - tipup, slider, door

there was a post here about a fellow who ditched off Hawaii, perhaps it was an -8?
I expect the ship to flip when hitting the water, and operating either type of canopy to be difficult, especially if the airframe distorts....making the tip-up jettison pins an advantage, I'd think ( if so equipped).

Boy, would it suck to flip in a river 5' deep, and be unable to egress, and walk out!
 
I have given this a lot of thought and even included a ditching procedure in my POH...Then I'm going to try and do a full stall landing just above the water. With the forward momentum of the RV, I suspect the canopy will flip forward and then back.

Bill, I read somewhere a long time ago that someone did some research (either NASA, FAA or NTSB) and discovered that in a tree top landing as well as fixed gear water landing that it was best to do a deep full stall with an exaggerated nose high attitude and literally kill all your fwd speed and let the plan fall into the trees (and water).

Anyone have any thoughts on that?
 
Timely subject. We just had a local accident here - Cessna on floats flipped on a water landing. Pilot got out but his young son did not.
Most of us who were Navy got extensive training in this area. First was the "Dilbert dunker" simulating a single seat fixed wing type that flips end over end upon hitting the water. You may have seen it in the movie "Officer and a Gentleman". Second, there was the helo dunker. A long tube suspended over the pool simulates a helicopter cabin, with seating for about 6. Each "subject" gets 4 rides in the contraption, the last 2 while wearing balck painted goggles, simulating a night time ditching. In other words, "you can't see %$#&". You're briefed on how to open the simulated door or hatch hardware and your route to such. When the cabin hits the water, it rolls inverted, the direction varies. It gets pretty crazy, esp. the simulated night runs. Six folks trying to get out, people getting kicked in the face, etc.
Pretty realistic and valueable training. The commercial operators do something very similar.
The number one lesson learned? Don't fly in helos, especially at night.:)

Doug
Seattle area
-4, wings
 
The number one lesson learned? Don't fly in helos, especially at night.:)


Amen!

If there was another thing I learned with the helo dunker, is that you have to be comfortable letting water go up your nose. I think that was the biggest thing that freaked people out. They would exhale as a reaction, and then suddenly be out of air. Gotta sit there, wait for all motion to subside, and then make your way out. The other big takeaway is you need to be able to unlatch your seatbelt, in one smooth motion with one hand, with your eyes closed. Same for the canopy latch. One of the statistics they told us was the number of people that drown after the accident because the force of the impact causes them to slide forward, and it rolls the buckle or latch over on their stomach. They panic, and never get it undone.

Had a friend ditch a C-152 off Hawaii a few years ago, plane floated long enough for him to go back for his favorite running shoes. He and his wife were fine, plane stayed upright. I think I've said it before, the empty beer cans should keep my RV floating long enough to get out.

For a tip up, I probably would unlatch it and hope the impact flings it forward and just rips it off. For a slider, I'd probably leave it latched, as the force of the impact may slame it closed and jam it.
 
USN training

I have been following this thread with great interest. I just wanted to add that I got this training for free- I just had to fly a few combat missions in SE Asia and fly off carriers for 20 years. :) Seriously, the training was tough but I never had the "Final Exam" That's when you have to do it for real. It's good to think about it before it actually happens to YOU. Signed, Retired USN pilot
 
Most Imortant Emergency Procedure in NATOPS?

1. HABD (mini SCUBA bottle) - As Required
2. Cords - Disconnect
3. Door/Window - Open/jettison
4. Place hand on known reference point
5. Harness - Release
6. Exit helicopter.

After egress:
7. Swim clear of helicopter and inflate LPU

Pretty good starting point for an RV egress EP. Apparently, trying to inflate the vest prior to exit is a common problem when people panic. Hence step 7. Also, as someone already said: "wait until all violent motion has stopped" is one of the warnings in our book.

Spare air sells several versions of egress breathing devices for about $300. Not cheap, but might be a good investment for those that fly over water.

As for how to land it, I want as little airspeed as possible. I'd rather stall and fall a few feet. My butt is in a cushioned seat and might survive a few G's. My head is hard, but I'd rather not dig into the water and flip over onto it. My .02.

Case
 
Helos vs RVs

The helos I rode in supposedly immediately rolled inverted and filled with water and we were told that those that tried to egress before then almost routinely never did.
We also flew much of the time at night so memorizing handholds and cabin references was essential, as was periodically demonstrating proficiency in getting a personal scuba(HEEDS) bottle out of a survival vest and activating it. This was done with black-out goggles on and while being held upside down in a pool. If you couldn't get 3 breaths from the bottle quickly, you flunked.
I can also tell you from practicing the manuevers, that its very easy in the dark to get your life support equipment, i.e., PFD, survival vest, helmet, etc, tangled in an exit hatch.
Having a ditching checklist, the right gear, and practicing the escape procedure would seem be de rigeur for flying an RV over open water. Maybe tipup drivers should rethink omitting their canopy jettisoning mechanisms and also unhooking struts, if they plan to fly over open water?
Dave A.
6A build
 
Rebreather

Just to add a note:

I work in the north sea and we now use rebreathers on our life jackets.
On the last two refresher courses these rebreathers helped immensly on egress from the upturned dunking simulator.

The rebreather is basically a bag that you breath into before you go under and by rebreathing this breath you have an extra vital 90 seconds of air.

Jon Johannson in his book said you need to have all your survival kit attached to you when you get out and he is right.

Rob
 
Really recommend this training

I have been fortunate to have had this training. While the Navy training is excellent, Survival Systems is better. The Survival Systems training I attended had aircraft simulators with doors, seatbelts and flight controls. Its one thing to get out of a metal tube, its another thing to get unbuckle seat belts, find door handles and get out of an upside down aircraft. In some scenarios my door was blocked by a diver to simulate a stuck door making me wait for the person next to me to open the door and get out first (it took him a life time to get out of the way.) I lost count but I believe I was upside down over 20 times over two days.

I had been flying over water for several years. Everything I had determined I would do would have killed me. It wasn't until I took the training that I learned how to survive an aircraft ditching. It even changed my perspective when I listen to the flight attendants talk about escape exits and their respective locations.

I know that sounds a little over the top, but attend the training. You will really learn alot. And no, I do not have any interest in Survival Systems.
 
Uncle Sam covered the cost of my underwater egress. I hated every second of it...EVERY second of it...BUT...I knew it might save my life some day and I hope to never have to put it to practical use.

We run a couple of checklist before going feet wet. Not a bad ideal to have a plan in place and brief it before a water crossing. Also not a ideal to put some small chem lights on hand holds and latches. The water can swallow light as quick as an airplane. When things go dark, things get scary fast. Another thing, sit in your airplane, close your eyes and start reaching for things, latches, hand holds..ect. Get that muscle memory started. Now, turn off the lights and do the same thing.

Also, making sure have the right survival gear for a water crossing is important...makes a whole lot easier for us rescue types to find you!
 
More of my 2 cents.

Wow...good responses by all. I would offer a few comments. As to the tip-up canopy. The suggestion of unlatching before impact is very good. I do get the impression the folks are underestimating the actual force of the impact however. I think if a tip up were unlatched that it would actually fly forward with sufficent force to be wrenched from the aircraft. I figure I was going around 50 MPH when I hit the water and the note the damage...and looking at the photo you are looking at the side of the aircraft with the door...

In my case however the accident occurred so fast there was no time to unlatch doors, or shut down any systems...

Again...remember if you are not wearing it, it's not survival gear. My wife had on clogs...so after the crash she had no shoes!!!!!!
 
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"remember if you are not wearing it, it's not survival gear"

Outstanding point. When I had a Yak-50 and went "cross country", I would wear an old military issued survival vest with some items that would life better if I found myself on the ground after a crash or bailing out.

Two things to think about when packing a "bailout kit":

1.) Surviving (food, water, protection from the environment, ect.)

2.) Effecting a quick rescue. (signaling device for both day and night. Mirrors, chem stick on the end of a piece of 550 cord and swung over your head is visible for miles at night under NVG's) whistle for the ground party, handheld radio or SPOT, PLB ect. Cell phone!!

Always file a flight plan and if you are doing just a local and do not want to file, let someone know what and when and when you will be on the ground. Call them when down. Have a checklist for them in the event they do not hear from you: Standard flight plan stuff: fuel, souls, color of a/c..ect.

Also, if you carry survival gear, make a list of what you have and leave it with them. They can tell rescue forces what to look for and also give us an ideal how long you can stand to be isolated. (we will look for you)

Stay near the airplane...a whole lot easier to see an airplane than one or two people. Trust me. Plus the airplane can provide survival gear (canopy glass can make a good "mirror". Seat belts make good tourniquets if things go badly.).

Know some basic survival and first aid. It will save your life. Lets keep the "rescue" in rescue instead of "recovery".

Lastly and most important: keep a very positive attitude. Giving up will kill you dead in a heartbeat. People WILL come looking for you.
 
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