Van's Air Force
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Devil's Advocate, Why Skyview in the 12?
- Thread starter Jetguy
- Start date
Skyview
Just look at what the Skyview does instead of multiple Boxes of Tricks...! Its a Real Multi tasker Unit..!
Ok I cant resist. Why do you guys want Skyview so bad in the RV12.
I Admit it looks cool but it seems like over kill. Ok let the debate begin, fire away!
Just look at what the Skyview does instead of multiple Boxes of Tricks...! Its a Real Multi tasker Unit..!
Ok I cant resist. Why do you guys want Skyview so bad in the RV12.
I Admit it looks cool but it seems like over kill. Ok let the debate begin, fire away!
How bout we start by you explaining why you think it is overkill.
engineerofsorts
Well Known Member
Well, let the war begin....
1. I'm an engineer/nerd (that designs processor buses for a living) and the common signaling bus between the different modules in the system seems to be a lot more elegant than forty 'leven hundred different wires strung together in a messy wiring harnness.
2. My guess on total cost of avionics, if you consider that the GPS and transponder function (and possibly the COM) included in a Skyview solution may make the total RV-12/Skyview-with-bells-an-whistles system about the same cost or less than the present panel.
3. Even if I don't necessarily need all the funcitons/bells/whistles, It looks like the Skyview will be getting those, and the 180 will not get that many upgrades.
4. To make you and Colin feel like your dual-panel 180/100-based RV-12 is sooooo last year.
Rob (Haruko's favorite husband)
1. I'm an engineer/nerd (that designs processor buses for a living) and the common signaling bus between the different modules in the system seems to be a lot more elegant than forty 'leven hundred different wires strung together in a messy wiring harnness.
2. My guess on total cost of avionics, if you consider that the GPS and transponder function (and possibly the COM) included in a Skyview solution may make the total RV-12/Skyview-with-bells-an-whistles system about the same cost or less than the present panel.
3. Even if I don't necessarily need all the funcitons/bells/whistles, It looks like the Skyview will be getting those, and the 180 will not get that many upgrades.
4. To make you and Colin feel like your dual-panel 180/100-based RV-12 is sooooo last year.
Rob (Haruko's favorite husband)
engineerofsorts
Well Known Member
Nah...
Of course not--I'm the nerd, Haruko's the pilot. With a dual-head Skyview, I can sit in the right seat happily doing nerd things on the second display! She'll be happy with whatever...It'll all be nicer than what's in her Archer...
Of course not--I'm the nerd, Haruko's the pilot. With a dual-head Skyview, I can sit in the right seat happily doing nerd things on the second display! She'll be happy with whatever...It'll all be nicer than what's in her Archer...
engineerofsorts
Well Known Member
And, um...
We need that terrain display to avoid all those 15000 ft peaks lurking around Central Texas.
We need that terrain display to avoid all those 15000 ft peaks lurking around Central Texas.
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
Of course it is overkill - way overkill. Isn't the autopilot and the Dynon 180 all about overkill too? That is the fun of an RV12, it is overkill!
I could just keep my Ercoupe if I did not want overkill.
I could just keep my Ercoupe if I did not want overkill.
Ok I cant resist. Why do you guys want Skyview so bad in the RV12.
I Admit it looks cool but it seems like over kill. Ok let the debate begin, fire away!
N395V
Well Known Member
Why do you eat steak when dogfood would supply adequate nutrition? Obviously the steak is over kill.
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
On a serious note:
We need to makeup for all those previous flight into terrain accidents, which were caused by a lack of what was seen out the window. VFR, IFR, darkness & IMC. GA, commercial & military.
Perhaps the Skyview, and others will put a good dent.........into this phenomenon, that doesn't need to happen.
And of course, we can always claim, that under VFR conditions, it shouldn't happen. But I have plenty of statistics to prove otherwise.
L.Adamson --- RV6A
We need to makeup for all those previous flight into terrain accidents, which were caused by a lack of what was seen out the window. VFR, IFR, darkness & IMC. GA, commercial & military.
Perhaps the Skyview, and others will put a good dent.........into this phenomenon, that doesn't need to happen.
And of course, we can always claim, that under VFR conditions, it shouldn't happen. But I have plenty of statistics to prove otherwise.
L.Adamson --- RV6A
Dgamble
Well Known Member
Given the relative rapidity that these types of products become obsolete and eventually unsupported, I'd prefer to start with the most recent product.
A similar question might be posed: why do you need/want a Garmin Aera over the perfectly adequate 496? I don't, in fact, want an Aera, mostly because I'm not a fan of touch screen interfaces, particularly in airplanes. But that being said, I'd rather have the unit that will continue to be upgraded and supported for a lengthier period.
A similar question might be posed: why do you need/want a Garmin Aera over the perfectly adequate 496? I don't, in fact, want an Aera, mostly because I'm not a fan of touch screen interfaces, particularly in airplanes. But that being said, I'd rather have the unit that will continue to be upgraded and supported for a lengthier period.
Mr. Gamble hit the nail on the head, albeit unwittingly, and it goes beyond Skyview.
Having the latest, most-likely-to-be-supported gizmo only puts off the inevitable a short while. Eventually, your airframe will be just fine, but that joy-box in the panel no longer works or is supported. Then what? Never upgrade? Build a new panel? Build around obsolescence from the start? Rather than fret over whether or not you can virtually see the ground you're about to CFIT because of foolishness, wouldn't round gauges suffice for a -12 with the virtue of distributed failure, and multiple supply and repair sources for a long, long, time?
Oh, I like the boxes for their compactness, freedom from the effects of vibration, and some of the computational capability. But I recognize that I'm building a computer into the airplane, and we all know what happens to the fanciest computer in a few years - obsolescence.
So why not a Skyview in a -12? More money. Boxes everywhere (you have to run pitot as well as static aft). No greater capability than "legacy" - which is to say boxes in production more than three years - appropriate for a -12.
John Siebold
Having the latest, most-likely-to-be-supported gizmo only puts off the inevitable a short while. Eventually, your airframe will be just fine, but that joy-box in the panel no longer works or is supported. Then what? Never upgrade? Build a new panel? Build around obsolescence from the start? Rather than fret over whether or not you can virtually see the ground you're about to CFIT because of foolishness, wouldn't round gauges suffice for a -12 with the virtue of distributed failure, and multiple supply and repair sources for a long, long, time?
Oh, I like the boxes for their compactness, freedom from the effects of vibration, and some of the computational capability. But I recognize that I'm building a computer into the airplane, and we all know what happens to the fanciest computer in a few years - obsolescence.
So why not a Skyview in a -12? More money. Boxes everywhere (you have to run pitot as well as static aft). No greater capability than "legacy" - which is to say boxes in production more than three years - appropriate for a -12.
John Siebold
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
Maybe age makes a difference. At my age I will be obsolete long before the Skyview is.
The ultimate flip side of that is my Ercoupe. Would you believe at age 65, she was born BEFORE there were TSO gauges, you are perfectly legal to go get a new oil pressure gauge down at the local auto parts store. No obsolesence there!
The ultimate flip side of that is my Ercoupe. Would you believe at age 65, she was born BEFORE there were TSO gauges, you are perfectly legal to go get a new oil pressure gauge down at the local auto parts store. No obsolesence there!
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
This is where I strongly disagree................and for very valid reasons!!!!
Does the "foolishness" have to apply to passengers or none pilot crew, also?
As far as I'm concerned, synthetic vision is one of the best aviation releated creations since the invention of the GPS. It get's even better with combinations of "enhanced vision displays". Check out Decembers Flying magazine titled "EVS & SVS -- The future of your PFD?"
With all the CFIT that's gone on around here over the years, as well as all CFIT accidents I've studied (just about all).........I can't help but feel this way.
L.Adamson --- RV6A (at least I have a Garmin 696)
ScottSchmidt
Well Known Member
Why Skyview?
I have now quite a few hours flying with Chelton's in my RV-10 and I would have a difficult time flying without synthetic vision, voice warnings and good TAWS. The situational awareness you have with a system like this is incredible. Even if you never fly IFR it is so nice to have features like highway in the sky when you are flying into busy areas with multiple runways. I can dial in the runway and relieve lots of cockpit work and look for other planes outside. 99% of my flying is VFR. I have also really like audible warnings for all critical engine information. It allows me to spend more time looking outside and less time scanning my engine instruments. If my oil gets to warm, alternator fails or any other limit is exceeded I hear a "check engine". I also hear "stall", "altitude" if I leave my assigned altitude and "terrain" if I am about to hit a mountain.
There are many night flights that I would just not do around Utah without a system like this. Technology like this has and will save lots of lives in the future. There have been too many planes into mountains that would have never happened with systems like this.
I am not sure if the Skyview will have all these features but I guarantee that if you do some flying behind a system like this you will never go back.
I have now quite a few hours flying with Chelton's in my RV-10 and I would have a difficult time flying without synthetic vision, voice warnings and good TAWS. The situational awareness you have with a system like this is incredible. Even if you never fly IFR it is so nice to have features like highway in the sky when you are flying into busy areas with multiple runways. I can dial in the runway and relieve lots of cockpit work and look for other planes outside. 99% of my flying is VFR. I have also really like audible warnings for all critical engine information. It allows me to spend more time looking outside and less time scanning my engine instruments. If my oil gets to warm, alternator fails or any other limit is exceeded I hear a "check engine". I also hear "stall", "altitude" if I leave my assigned altitude and "terrain" if I am about to hit a mountain.
There are many night flights that I would just not do around Utah without a system like this. Technology like this has and will save lots of lives in the future. There have been too many planes into mountains that would have never happened with systems like this.
I am not sure if the Skyview will have all these features but I guarantee that if you do some flying behind a system like this you will never go back.
Alan Carroll
Well Known Member
panel envy
My hangar mate has a Skyview in his RV-8A, and I'll admit I'm envious. Perhaps the question to ask is why anyone needs an RV-12 (or RV-8) at all. Of course we do not; we fly for fun. So, if having a Skyview in the RV-12 increases the fun then by all means get one if you can! Five years from now you can relive the fun when you buy the even more amazing replacement box.
The notion that this is "needed" to be able to fly safely in a day-VFR airplane seems far fetched at best, and possibly dangerous if it leads a VFR pilot into a situation they would have otherwise avoided.
My hangar mate has a Skyview in his RV-8A, and I'll admit I'm envious. Perhaps the question to ask is why anyone needs an RV-12 (or RV-8) at all. Of course we do not; we fly for fun. So, if having a Skyview in the RV-12 increases the fun then by all means get one if you can! Five years from now you can relive the fun when you buy the even more amazing replacement box.
The notion that this is "needed" to be able to fly safely in a day-VFR airplane seems far fetched at best, and possibly dangerous if it leads a VFR pilot into a situation they would have otherwise avoided.
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
One thing is for certain. I can supply web links to accident after accident, in which daytime VFR pilots ended up in situations they would have never planned on. After all, this is why accidents happen. And unfortunately, they didn't have synthetic vision or terrain awareness, to easily show the error.
So.........let's have a "box" like this, to save more lives; than think of it as a device that can possibly lead to dangerous situations.
Do I feel very strongly about this? You bet!
L.Adamson --- RV6A
No one mentioned the one reason I am considering using either the D-180 or the MGL XTreem...weight! I have a flying 8A and used all steam gauges because that was what was available at the time. I am building an aircraft now (plans only) that has a small panel and needs less weight in the nose, not more, due to a larger engine. Simplicity is the second reason.
Whichever fancy EFIS you use, I will suggest that you give yourself and your family the best Christmas present ever: instrument training. It will make you a much smoother and safer pilot. And, it may save your bacon some day. Talk about an investment with a super return on your money!
Jim
Whichever fancy EFIS you use, I will suggest that you give yourself and your family the best Christmas present ever: instrument training. It will make you a much smoother and safer pilot. And, it may save your bacon some day. Talk about an investment with a super return on your money!
Jim
Alan Carroll
Well Known Member
Your point is well taken; having better tools is in principle always better. However, I would argue that accidents largely reflect imperfect judgement on the part of the pilots, and that technology can't fix faulty judgement. For example, I've noticed with my Garmin 396 an insidious temptation to use it to push a VFR flight farther than I would have done otherwise, based XM reporting of weather (I'm IFR rated but fly my RV VFR). I wish I could say my own judgement was perfect in such situations but its not. I've found that it can take considerable discipline to ignore the XM Siren-song of "better weather ahead". My concern is that a VFR pilot equipped with synthetic vision will be slower to start the 180° turn than one without. Also from what I can tell there has yet to be a measurable safety improvement attributed to technologically advanced aircraft (though perhaps there will be eventually; not looking to restart this debate).
I'd still like to have a Skyview, or something like it.
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RDOG
Well Known Member
Sooooo last year.
Hi Rob,
I hope your build is progressing well. Sorry we missed you a couple weeks ago. The big question is... Why drag me into this? I'm an innocent bystander.
Progress marches on and we have the best "completed system" for the time. It would be great to have the skyview when it all works. If we waited for the skyview we would not have met you at Oshkosh when we flew our completed RV-12 to Airadventure. I hope we can get together with your favorite wife to give her some dual in our completed and flying RV-12.
Catch you later, Colin
Hi Rob,
I hope your build is progressing well. Sorry we missed you a couple weeks ago. The big question is... Why drag me into this? I'm an innocent bystander.
Progress marches on and we have the best "completed system" for the time. It would be great to have the skyview when it all works. If we waited for the skyview we would not have met you at Oshkosh when we flew our completed RV-12 to Airadventure. I hope we can get together with your favorite wife to give her some dual in our completed and flying RV-12.
Catch you later, Colin
Mr. Gamble set it best...
but forgot to add, because we can.
Do I need the XM Weather and traffic display in my truck? No but I have it and its cool (and actually caused me to change a driving route on a long road trip more than once due to weather in a pass (driving Phoenix - Seattle) and many times due to traffic or road closures. Do I need blue tooth phone connectivity built in? No but it is great and increases safety a ton.
Situational awareness is critical in all aspects of moving a piece of machinery.
but forgot to add, because we can.
Do I need the XM Weather and traffic display in my truck? No but I have it and its cool (and actually caused me to change a driving route on a long road trip more than once due to weather in a pass (driving Phoenix - Seattle) and many times due to traffic or road closures. Do I need blue tooth phone connectivity built in? No but it is great and increases safety a ton.
Situational awareness is critical in all aspects of moving a piece of machinery.
