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How do you land this thing?

gblwy

Well Known Member
I didn't know I had bought a glider ;-)

The plane appears to have a very flat approach profile. It's not easy to slow down, or come down. Flaps are not very effective and full sideslip isn't too effective either. In spite of the big rudder it is easily overpowered by flaperon.

I tried flapless landings today and the required approach angle is really flat. Looks like a 1:15 glide angle!

All fantastic until you need to get into a short strip over an obstacle. I'd be interested to hear of other's experiences related to this scenario. An initial approach speed of 1.3 times stall speed seems too high for this plane.

I also tried an engine-off landing from downwind and 2000 feet. At the best glide of 85 kts (which seems too high) the prop windmills. I only got the prop to stop at around 60 kts just prior to the flare, and the plane visibly accelerated.

All a very interesting experience. For me, at least, this plane will take some time before I am comfortable with landing distances.

Cheers...Keith
 
I am guessing that you do not have a constant speed prop. Have you taken the plane to altitude and stalled it clean and dirty to see what your actual stall speed is? My RV for example has a very high stall speed of 73 mph dirty ( highest that I have ever heard of) so I an not doing any ovehead breaks. I have a fixed pitch prop so I have backed off to about 110 mph at pattern altitude a couple miles out. I do 100 on downwind 90 on base and 80 mph over the numbers. Flare fairly close to the ground and make sure you do not lose the sight picture of the runway in front of you. Once the plane stops flying it falls like a rock so you need to devope a feel for exact speeds in the pattern and get the plane to stall on touchdown. I always use full flaps unless there is a very strong ie 20 mph + crosswind. If you don't use full flaps it takes forever for the speed to burn off.
 
It's Too Easy

Keith,

To regurgitate what others have said this is the easiest to land airplane I have ever flown. Prior to my -12 I had a Cessna 150 for 9 years; the -12 is way easier than the 150.

What I do is fly the pattern 1000' AGL, unless something else required otherwise. Abeam the touchdown point I bring the throttle to idle (I rarely make power on landings), hold the nose up until the airspeed drops below 80Kts, full flaps and hold 65Kts. Since I'm power off I keep the pattern closer to the runway than a lot of people do.

On final if I'm a little high I slip it, but usullay it is not necessary. Over the fence I look for 55Kts. I usually touch down 100' or so past the edge of the pavement and hold the stick back until I can't keep the nosewheel off the runway any longer.

I usually have to add power to get to the first turn off. Without using brakes I'm usually ready to turn off the runway in less than 1000'. With brakes it could be a lot less.

I've heard a lot of people say that the airplane is hard to slow down and I don't find this to be the case. I usually enter the pattern between 95-105Kts, depending on other traffic, and pull the power off abeam the touchdown point and have no trouble slowing down to below flap speed (holding the nose up) in just 10-15 seconds or so.

For power on approaches I can offer no advice as I haven't tried it yet.

Good luck.
 
Ok easy to see you have a fixt pich prop,,,, make sure that you Idle is at least 700-800 rpm..... fly your patten as normal on the glid slop just dont be afraid to slow it down.... what I like to do is alittle nose trim down so that the stick is heavy and just before touch down I bring the flaps up.
Good luck
David
 
Keith,

To regurgitate what others have said this is the easiest to land airplane I have ever flown. Prior to my -12 I had a Cessna 150 for 9 years; the -12 is way easier than the 150.

What I do is fly the pattern 1000' AGL, unless something else required otherwise. Abeam the touchdown point I bring the throttle to idle (I rarely make power on landings), hold the nose up until the airspeed drops below 80Kts, full flaps and hold 65Kts. Since I'm power off I keep the pattern closer to the runway than a lot of people do.

On final if I'm a little high I slip it, but usullay it is not necessary. Over the fence I look for 55Kts. I usually touch down 100' or so past the edge of the pavement and hold the stick back until I can't keep the nosewheel off the runway any longer.

I usually have to add power to get to the first turn off. Without using brakes I'm usually ready to turn off the runway in less than 1000'. With brakes it could be a lot less.

I've heard a lot of people say that the airplane is hard to slow down and I don't find this to be the case. I usually enter the pattern between 95-105Kts, depending on other traffic, and pull the power off abeam the touchdown point and have no trouble slowing down to below flap speed (holding the nose up) in just 10-15 seconds or so.

For power on approaches I can offer no advice as I haven't tried it yet.

Good luck.


Keith,

Steve has it pegged. Two things to add. One: if you have another person with you it does come down faster. Two: when you do pull the power back to flap speed, try not to be at 5000 rpm...these engines don't like sudden 3000 rpm changes. Like Steve says, start working your speed down and your trim up on downwind. Once you get the hang of it, you can do full stall landings all day long...and should...keep that nosewheel up as long as possible.
 
Ok easy to see you have a fixt pich prop,,,, make sure that you Idle is at least 700-800 rpm..... fly your patten as normal on the glid slop just dont be afraid to slow it down.... what I like to do is alittle nose trim down so that the stick is heavy and just before touch down I bring the flaps up.
Good luck
David


Yikes! As a CFI I gotta chime in here and say that I have always encouraged my students to keep the plane in trim at all times, and I have NEVER heard of anyone recommending flap retraction BEFORE touchdown. Get some more opinions before you try that one!!:eek:
 
Keith, if you want a keen instructor to have a go at teaching you, drop me a line. :)

I suspect that, like many pilots, your experience is the ubiquitous 152/172/PA28/AA5 range. Most RVs that I have flown (4,6,7) are much more slippery and I would guess that the 12 is no different. Combine that with a revvy engine and things can get difficult on final. I used to own a Rotax driven AT-3 and one problem we had was ensuring the throttle was fully closed. A mere 100rpm above minimum and you will find that the aircraft doesn't want to land.

As the group instructor on a 6A, I tell the guys to ensure they are within/close to Vfe by the end of the downwind leg (indeed, once abeam the landing threshold). Reducing power prior to turning base also helps as you can use this turn to lose more energy. Most RVs (again, as an Englishman I'm not an expert on the 12) slip really nicely as long as you don't let the nose drop - maintain an appropriate attitude. Try this one at stall/spin altitude before you have a go in the cct.
 
I'm with Pete on this one....

Yikes! As a CFI I gotta chime in here and say that I have always encouraged my students to keep the plane in trim at all times, and I have NEVER heard of anyone recommending flap retraction BEFORE touchdown. Get some more opinions before you try that one!!:eek:

You'll never see a pro pilot retract flaps before touchdown. Learn to control the speed very closely and make longer downwind legs if that's what it takes.

It'll take 20 hours or more to get comfortable with the airplane and its nuances but use the slow landing speed that Van's has engineered into it, full flap landings as practical and a very slow, safe touchdown.

Regards,
 
Most RVs that I have flown (4,6,7) are much more slippery and I would guess that the 12 is no different...

Folks before this thread gets too far off the track of the OP's question, you might look and realize that it is in the RV-12 forum, and yes the RV-12 flies much differently than any of the short-wing RV's. Pull the power off at low key, and it just stays up there. Rather than guessing at an answer, go fly one before trying to compare it - they are apples and oranges.

Which is not to say the RV-12 is hard to land, it is pretty similar to most low-wing-loading GA airplanes. If you are coming from short-wing RV's, then yes, it is a change - takes about two or three landings to get the picture.

Paul
 
Low RPM & Low airspeed

Keith,
Read this thread on engine RPM: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=55264
I have had the same problem with the RV-12 floating while landing and so have others. I agree with Scrabo about keeping the idle speed low. The throttle springs are very strong and will open the throttle unless you forcibly keep the knob pulled back. (That is why I replaced the springs with weaker ones.) I do not want to revive the idle RPM debate in the above link, so I will just say to adjust the idle RPM to the very minimum allowed. I am not saying to operate the engine at low RPM, just have the capability to do so while landing. The momentum of the aircraft while landing will keep the RPM higher then when parked on the ground.
Keeping the airspeed on final approach at the minimum recommended in the Pilot Operating Handbook will help too. On final during the first several landings, I was reluctant to let the airspeed get very low because I did not know when the wings would stall. Practicing stalls at altitude helps to recognize by sounds when about to stall. I intend to install an AOA indicator because stalls can occur at any airspeed, but only at one Angle of Attack.
Joe
 
WOW GUYS. I have to say we have a bunch of experts here that know how to hangar fly.

Tell you what guy, you bring your RV12 over here to the states and let me fly it and than I'll tell you how to land YOUR PLANE.

My advice here, get an instructor and go fly together, than figure out how to land YOUR plane together.
 
I haven't found the 12 that difficult to land. I did take a transition course from Mike Seager in the factory 12. As with any airplane proper entry into the pattern and good control of speed and altitude are the key. 5 knots too fast or too high an rpm and it floats.
 
Airspeed management is the key...
Read the flying section of 27 Years of the RVator - full of great ideas...
cat-med_rvator-yrs.jpg


... make sure that you Idle is at least 700-800 rpm.....
If Rotaxs go that slow they beat up the gear box - $$$
 
Thanks

Thanks guys, for your comments, particulary the RV12 drivers.

A couple of observations. I have been flying at close to gross weight with full baggage and fuel.

Also two-up. In the right seat I have had an 18,000 hour test pilot letting me make a fool of myself ;-)

We originally thought that there was some residual thrust from having the idle speed too high. I had already reduced that from 1800 to 1600 rpm and am reluctant to reduce it further. As commented in the first note we tried an engine-off circuit (well half circuit actually) with no thrust and just the drag of the windmilling prop and still the approach angle at the best glide speed of 85 is rather flat. So it's not an idle speed issue.

As Steve noted I'll spend more time improving power-off circuits. I tend to do fairly tight circuits and even with no power, full flaps, and sideslipping I have had to go around. I'll just need to get comfortable flying slowly ;-)

Best news is it is the easiest-to-land plane I have ever flown, once on short finals at the right speed/height.

Cheers...Keith
 
Keith, if you want a keen instructor to have a go at teaching you, drop me a line. :)

Now, Dave - that's cheating. I know you want one and you're just going to have to build your own....!! :)

I flew the demo RV-12 and it certainly is one that'll float with too many knots under the wings (far too efficient for its own good!). I've now got a few hours on our Tecnam P2002-JF Sierra at work and it's a very similar beast - speed = float.

Having more than a few hours on my RV-6 in the past, for all the none RV-12 drivers out there, they don't really behave the same... ;)
 
Speed too high

As I noted myself, I believe 85 knots is too high for an engine-out approach. I was following instructions on Page 6-10 of the POH. Max range is at 85 kts, miniumum sink is 60 kts.

Cheers...Keith
 
I have lots of hours on my RV7, and did conversion onto RV12 and flown at least another RV12.

My opinion, make sure the RPM is set to low of acceptable limits, just as per other fixed pitch RVs

Difference though in landing is the considerable pitch change "read more than RV7" when engaging the flaperons, be prepared for it.

Finals in RV12 ussualy requires you to hold bit of power all the way to the deck over the fence, compared to RV7 fixed pitch wich is a glide (idle) approach. 1.3 x stall is good approach speed.

My reasoning/explanation for differences is that RV12 is more draggy than RV7 and also do not have the penetration mass. As soon as you take the power away from a RV12 you notice a definite speed drop, and if in gusty conditions and with low mass and penetration it is a little more difficult. So I like to land the RV12 with a bit of power instead of complete idle approach.

In good weather the RV12 is a absolute "breeze" to land :D compared to RV7
In trying weather the RV12 is a little more difficult to land compared to RV7.

When the mechanics are set up correctly it only takes: Practise, practise, practise!
 
Thanks guys, for your comments, particulary the RV12 drivers.

A couple of observations. I have been flying at close to gross weight with full baggage and fuel.

Also two-up. In the right seat I have had an 18,000 hour test pilot letting me make a fool of myself ;-)

We originally thought that there was some residual thrust from having the idle speed too high. I had already reduced that from 1800 to 1600 rpm and am reluctant to reduce it further. As commented in the first note we tried an engine-off circuit (well half circuit actually) with no thrust and just the drag of the windmilling prop and still the approach angle at the best glide speed of 85 is rather flat. So it's not an idle speed issue.

As Steve noted I'll spend more time improving power-off circuits. I tend to do fairly tight circuits and even with no power, full flaps, and sideslipping I have had to go around. I'll just need to get comfortable flying slowly ;-)

Best news is it is the easiest-to-land plane I have ever flown, once on short finals at the right speed/height.

Cheers...Keith

Set the ground idle to 1200-1400, but never use this idle speed on the ground, only in the pattern. Not only does this help in the pattern it helps with smooth shut downs also.

As mentioned 85 is WAY too fast on final. The RV-12 won't touch down on the mains until in the 40's. Time to go up to 3,000 AGL and do some slow speed flight with flaps deployed and get used to it. Slow the plane down, watch the VSI and make sure you are not decending. Slow it down to 65 and you should be able to fly and do slow turns all day long without decending. Then slowly reduce speed to 55 and stay straight and level without decending. Practice slow flight!

Also, you need to work on your stalls also so you know exactly where it is, and that the stall warming is set 3-5 MPH over stall.

I just ferried a buddy's RV-12 300 miles and 3 landings. The RV-12 flys exactly the same when set up right.


Good luck, keep us posted.
 
85 knots on final in a 12!!!

Wow you are lucky it ever lands, the plane is designed to be at 55 - 60 knots on final as are most LSA, I fly a Sportstar (while 12 being built) and I fly it at 65 knots on final only because I fly out of KSDL and there are usually some jet jockeys waiting to take off. At that speed you have to fly it all the way to the runway. Short approach you have to force it down.

On the Flip side unlike the 12 when you finally do cut the power to idle it sinks pretty fast. I got a ride in the factory 12 with Gus and the thing actually pushed upward on final when we cam over a plowed field at the end of the runway just like a glider.

What do you expect it is a light airplane designed by a man who is very partial to gliders :) I for one think it is great especially when that Rotax fails and I need to look for a landing spot, will have a lot of time to do it.

Find an instructor familiar with LSA and I mean familiar as in flying them every day, they are very different than run of the mill GA craft.
 
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