VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

  #1  
Old 06-28-2005, 08:44 PM
N130WN's Avatar
N130WN N130WN is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 8A7 (NC)
Posts: 322
Default RV-8 IFR Instruction

Has anyone ever obtained instrument instruction/rating in one of the tandem RVs? I'm considering pursuing my rating, but not thrilled of the idea of going back to spam-land.....
__________________
Larry Bowen
RV-8 Built, sold, missed.
RV-7 Built, sold, missed.
RV-8 Emp in progress ...
RV-8A Purchased, flying.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-29-2005, 01:14 AM
gmcjetpilot's Avatar
gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,286
Thumbs up CFI advice

Fact is you will not be able to do 100% of your training and check ride in the -8 in my opinion, unless you had dual instruments front and back. The good news is you might use the RV for 1/2 of the training?

You need 40 hours instrument (actual or simulated) towards the rating. Of the 40 hours only 15 hours need to be dual per the Regs. Which means you could practice under the hood (in VFR conditions) with a suitable safety pilot. In theory you could use the RV-8 for all solo practice. You also need 3 hours of logged dual instruction for check ride prep, but that can be part of the 15 hours total dual.

Advice #1) Regardless of the airplane I highly recommend you use a simulator for part of your training. I find about 5-8 hours is a good return on efficency and quality. I believe up to 20 hours can be in a Sim but I have my doubts of how effective a basic non-motion GA Sim is for extensive training. Airline Sims are different, actual airplane cockpits, full motion and cost millions. The first time I few passengers in a plane was the first time I flew the actual plane. I did this on three different planes. Non-motion GA Sims are not that good, but serve purpose to a point. Really well worth it as a learning tool and money saver. The instructor must be skilled in giving sim training, it is a different than aircraft training. The instructor is key to making sim training meaningful. Nothing wrong with using different instructors.

Sims are very good for teaching procedures and partial panel work. When you shoot an approach you can just re-position outside the marker and do it again, saving time. For basic attitude instrument training also. It is great because you can talk about it, freeze it and plot the performance. However there is a limit and there is no substitute for the real thing (unless it is a $40 million dollar sim).

The standard "6 pack" has gone out the window with all the EFIS experimental panels hitting the market. Practicing instrument scan is part of flying in IMC. "Cross check-Interpret-Control" may not mean much to you now but it will. Bottom line is developing good habits 6-pack or not. An EFIS in theory is easier. You want to fly the airplane you will use for the check ride at least 3-6 hours just before taking the practical test.

Advice #2 - Rent the spam can, a 172C would be a good choice. Dealing with prop and gear and learning to fly attitude instruments is a hand full. The Skyhawk will allow you to focus on flying and procedure. A C172 is slower and more stable than the RV-8.

So the suggest game plan (not in order) would be:

5-8 hours in sim (dual)
10-12 hours C172 (dual) *
15 hours in RV-8 (solo practice)**
2 hours check ride C172 (all you - use the force)

Total 40 hours plus 2 hours for check ride ***
(alt between sim, dual and solo practice)

* May be the instructor can fly some (VFR) dual with you in the RV-8. I could see may be giving 1 or 2 hours of DUAL in your RV-8, but that would be all I could call dual and log. After that it would be a glorified safety pilot and not an instructor. BTW actual IMC is the best training and you MUST have a CFII for actual. IMC dual will never happen in your RV-8. For dual the instructor needs to see the instruments and you , what and how you are doing it, even help and demonstrate at some points. By watching the strudents head and hand movements I can see anc correct errors. Dual in a RV-8 would be difficult and poor at best. In the end the check ride will never happen in the RV-8.

**Solo practice is not just flying holes in the sky. It would be flying instrument practice patterns (written down) which involve a series of times maneuvers: climbs, climbs at specific VSI rates, level offs, descents, descents at specific rates, turns level (45,90,180,360 degrees), climbing turns with precise timed level off altitude and heading change (same for decent). In theory a CFII could look over your shoulder and call it Dual? I don't know how well that would work. You would have to find an instructor to do this. You can also practice instrument approaches, missed approaches and vectors under the hood with a safety pilot in VFR conditions. You will need to be comfortable with ATC communications and should not do this until your instructor has shown them to you. Also an IFR current safety pilot would be a nice thing to have, but never forget their job is watching for traffic and taking the plane from you if needed. Also basic VOR Nav review would be practiced (track, intercept, holding patterns entry/exit). Unusual attitudes can be done if your safety pilot knows what they are doing, but this could be hazardous in a RV if let loose too far. Also you need to challenge yourself and fly within acceptable limits. Keep track of your tolerance. There is only so much solo you can do in your RV-8 but it will give you good practice and reduce the total time in the rental.

*** I say you only need 15 hours dual and 40 total, of which 3 hours must be flight prep for check ride. All this is up to the instructor and you. Some people take longer. Also some instructors may not be willing to do dual in the RV-8. However I feel strongly that you don't need an instructor to baby-sit you for 40 hours. Solo practice is important and worthwhile. However proficiency is the bottom line and regardless of how much solo practice you do. When you fly Dual, you must consistently show the instructor that you have mastered the tasks before moving on. It is proficiency not hours, so don't let me miss lead you this will work for you or anyone, eveytime, depends on the individual.

Some CFII's think you must fly 40 hours with them just because...they this is the way they trained? Trust me, if you go up and work up a sweat under the hood and really work solo, it will pay off. Obviously a RV-8 will not translate to a C172 perfectly, but a good scan, control, organization, communications and procedures translate across all makes and models.

HOOD TIME: Don't Cheat. If you can see out the corner of your eyes you need to block this out with cardboard or something, as long as the safety pilots view is not compromised. The military had true hoods that where tents that cover the whole cockpit. When you fly into IMC you will not be able to cheat.



Training is an individual thing, but from my experience it is realistic goal. Flying one plane would be better but I am trying to figure a way to include the RV-8 in the program. If you fly the skyhawk proficiently per the PTS and you have 15 hours dual there is NO need for you to log more dual if you have 25 hours of solo hood work (post private pilot). You need to log you solo and note the safety pilot?s name. He/she does not need to sign it or write their pilot number down, but they can if they want. Also note what you practice. There is no required solo items, but 25 hours of straight and level is not going to cut it.

How effective you use your RV-8 is up to you, but I doubt you will be able to take a check ride in it. Therefore 1/2 of your training will likely be in the plane you will take your check ride in, the rental bird.

Last, when I got my original inst ticket long ago, I did it with 15 hours dual in a rented C172 and the rest was in my plane (a Piper T-hawk) with a few friend safety pilots. I did a lot of solo work, may be 35-45 hours of patterns, holding patterns and a bunch of VOR/LOC approaches, which is all I could do in the Tommy Hawk. I got real comfortable under the hood. Also talking to ATC, listening to ATC and understanding and memorizing the clearance while flying is good practice.

Later when I became an active CFII and was teaching, I paired my students up sometimes and got them to fly together for local dual, cross-country dual. They would also act as safety pilot for each other's solo practice. It worked real well. My students ended up with around 5 hours sim, 15 hours dual, 20 hours solo and 10-12 backseat hours observing another student in the plane. Bottom line you must be proficient & safe. Some took longer. Others wanted or needed more hours of dual.

You know the RV-8 is fast and slippery and unusual attitudes in the clouds could get you past Vne fast, so an autopilot would be needed for real IMC in my opinion. On an Inst check ride you can use the autopilot for some of it, which is nice. Most C172's don't have an autopilot or is it needed, but the RV-8 does need it for single pilot IFR ops. I flew IFR in my RV-4 with out an autopilot and it was not real fun. Trying to find approach plates, read them, set radios and write WX or clearance while hand flying can be a challenge in any plane with out an autopilot.

Advice #3 - Who teaches you should spend at least the first 5-8 hours dual teaching you basic attitude instrument flying. You should not be shooting approaches in the first hand full of flights or 10 hours or so. May be a Demo or one approach coming back in at the end of every flight but not multi approaches. You need to have proficiency flying by instruments before doing procedures. The first flights should be short, 1 to 1.5 hours. Going too long on a lesson gets you over tired and is a waste of money and time. Many short flights are better than a few long flights. Until you get your CHOPS you need to keep the training flights short. At first 1 hour is a lot. The only long flights is the dual cross-country. Also you should work in solo practice between the dual sessions. This is how you get your Instrument ticket in minimum time with out getting a 100 of hours of dual.

Good Luck, email me if I can help (gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com).
I am a CFII but live in North Carolina

George RV-4/7 CFI, CFII, MEI, ATP

Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 06-29-2005 at 01:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-29-2005, 09:41 AM
John_RV4 John_RV4 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 250
Default Excellent post...

I am in the same boat as the original poster. I have an RV4 and a flying club Sundowner (IFR). I didn't realize I could use the 4 as part of the training. That's huge !!

Now, it's off to some of the other topics to figure out how to equip the 4 for Instrument flight.

Lastly, maybe now I can forgive you for selling your 4 :-)

John
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-29-2005, 10:34 AM
John_RV4 John_RV4 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 250
Default Speaking of simulators

Does anyone think that there are any PC based sims that are actually useful for training ? I know you couldn't log the time. But a good one might be helpful to do some practice.

John
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-29-2005, 11:46 AM
rv8ch's Avatar
rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: LSGY
Posts: 3,211
Default good simulators

Recent magazine articles have indicated that even MS Flight Simulator is a good platform for IFR training.
__________________
Mickey Coggins
http://rv8.ch
"Hello, world!"
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-29-2005, 09:55 PM
N130WN's Avatar
N130WN N130WN is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 8A7 (NC)
Posts: 322
Default RV-8 IFR Instruction

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot
Good Luck, email me if I can help (gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com).
I am a CFII but live in North Carolina

George RV-4/7 CFI, CFII, MEI, ATP
George -

Thanks for the detailed reply. A lot of what you say makes sense. Where in NC are you, and are you taking on new students? I'm based at 8A7. You're email address look familiar, but I can't place it.
__________________
Larry Bowen
RV-8 Built, sold, missed.
RV-7 Built, sold, missed.
RV-8 Emp in progress ...
RV-8A Purchased, flying.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-30-2005, 01:46 PM
gmcjetpilot's Avatar
gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,286
Default I am 93 sm east

Quote:
Originally Posted by N130WN
George - Thanks for the detailed reply. A lot of what you say makes sense. Where in NC are you, and are you taking on new students? I'm based at 8A7. You're email address look familiar, but I can't place it.
I am at RDU about 93 sm east as the crow fly?s. Yes, lets do some flying in the RV-8.

I am not associated with an FBO and don't have access to C172 or side-by-side plane to fly. My RV-7 is nowhere near complete. Yes, I have thought about teaching in my RV-7 and looked into it. I am not sure if I can commit to your whole course of IFR training, but would be glad to help in some capacity if I can, with limitations in using the RV-8 as I have stated.

One thing I we must assure is that the rear seat has adequate fwd visibility to look for traffic safely. Second I would need to have a clue of attitude, heading, airspeed and power setting. A hand-held GPS in the back could help. As I said the whole instruction affair in the 8 could be either: OK, marginal or ineffectual. Safety pilot would likely be OK.

My first suggestion/idea is using the RV-8 for solo/safety pilot practice after getting dual in another plane or sim. Your practice would largely be self-correct and self-evaluated. I have some forms you fill out so you can quantify, record and track your progress. Trust me when it works out you will know it. However solo practice should be mixed with dual instruction in a side-by-side plane.

For an experiment I would be willing to try it, at least once. We can write it up a short article about the practicality of dual instruction in a RV-8. May be Van will put it in the RVator.

Worst case scenario is I may only be able to be a glorified safety pilot in the back seat, which is still good. As far as true dual instruction I have to be honest to sign it off as dual legitimately. The criteria I need is: communication (you and ATC), monitor, evaluate and correct. As far as communication between you and I, although I am not Italian I do talk with my hands. Could be a problem

Demonstration is part of teaching, but not critical. I always used Demo's sparingly. The idea is for the student to fly, not me. Hey, what about a video camera of the inst. panel and monitor in back? Hummmmm We can see how it goes. I can only evaluate the RV-8/dual scenario if we give it a go, so I am game. Other wise I would like a ride in your nice RV-8 anyway.


I have seen you fly BTW on your Video, and you do a nice job, so I have no big issue about not having full control. However even as a safety pilot I must be able to take the plane from you if need, for traffic as an example. I think just a stick may be adequate. I did have one wild ride in the back of a RV-4. A friend was thinking of buying a RV-4 and wanted me to fly it. The owner only would let me fly it from the back, without rudder or throttle. At the end of the flight the owner/pilot made the landing and got into an embarrassing prolonged landing PIO bunny hop that would have mellowed out if he would have pulled the stick back and held it there. It was ugly, not dangerous, but ugly.

Before jumping in the back we need to figure out a few details. e-mail me, gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com and we'll talk on the phone. Glad to help.

Cheers George

Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 06-30-2005 at 02:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-30-2005, 09:18 PM
N130WN's Avatar
N130WN N130WN is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 8A7 (NC)
Posts: 322
Default Ifr

We will definately have to get together. I'll contact you off-line.
__________________
Larry Bowen
RV-8 Built, sold, missed.
RV-7 Built, sold, missed.
RV-8 Emp in progress ...
RV-8A Purchased, flying.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-01-2005, 09:26 PM
RICHARD HUTSON's Avatar
RICHARD HUTSON RICHARD HUTSON is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BARTLETT, TN
Posts: 64
Default Simulators

[quote=John_RV4]Does anyone think that there are any PC based sims that are actually useful for training ? I know you couldn't log the time. But a good one might be helpful to do some practice.

The software x-plane at www.x-plane.com is used at in Fidelity Flight Simulator with FAA approval.

Geroge would training in a Motus Series 3 Simulator at $85.00 per hour with instructor be a good ideal?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-02-2005, 06:16 PM
gmcjetpilot's Avatar
gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,286
Default Sims or training device?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RICHARD HUTSON
George would training in a Motus Series 3 Simulator at $85.00 per hour with instructor be a good ideal?
Sorry I have no idea what a motus series 3 is. It must meet the FAA requirements for a training device, call your local FSDO or your instructor should know. As far as the cost again don't know what the going rate is. The GA simulators I used to teach basic instrument and multi engine back 15 years ago was an ATC brand. I used two of them, a single a twin version. I am sure they have many other good GA sims available today. ATC is still around and makes simulators. Again call the FSDO or research the FAA web site, FAR's and web for approved instrument simulators. As far as any PC based simulator, I agree for practice of procedures a computer sim can be of use to keep your head into it, but you can?t log it.

Cheers George

Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 07-03-2005 at 12:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:18 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.