VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

  #1  
Old 07-27-2020, 11:02 PM
jcarne's Avatar
jcarne jcarne is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Worland, Wyoming
Posts: 1,367
Default Recent issues with jets

Okay, first if this thread isn't appropriate for these forums can a moderator please let me know and I'll take it elsewhere.

I fly out of KCOD which is Cody Wyoming. This is a pretty hot (by our standards) airport for corporate jet activity due to it's proximity to Yellowstone and ranches. I have had two issues with Citations lately and want your opinion on what you would have done.

Scenario 1

So there I was flying with a buddy entering a midfield crosswind for runway 4 (no traffic in the pattern). Winds were calm on the AWOS also verified by the wind sock. As a local pilot here runway 4 is the preferred runway for landing if winds calm (notice the location of the hangars). As we are overflying the field I see a Citation taxiing faster than any other aircraft in my life to 22 (I still don't know why he taxied 8000 feet on calm winds). Now we are past our abeam spot and slowing down. The pilot literally asks where we are to which we reply left downwind runway 4 about to turn base. He then comes on the radio and announces his departure on 22. Well this situation seems easy as we have no real option other than to yield the right of way and curse him profusely while fighting the urge to not key the mic.

Here is a pic of the airfield and our positions. (note: he was not lined up on the runway yet)

q by Jereme Carne, on Flickr

Scenario 2 (two days later different Citation)

There I was again this time with my instructor in the same exact position abeam the numbers for runway 4 when a Citation announces 10 mile final for runway 22. Today however, the winds strongly favor runway 4. I tell him where we are in the pattern and that we are closed traffic thinking he would get the clue. Well he didn't... as I'm on base he announces 6ish mile final if I remember right. As I turn final I tell him I'll make this a full stop and get out of his way. My instructor was irritated at the other pilot for sure but I also think he was a little irritated that I gave the Citation a full stop as well (he has a few other stories as well of instances like this and is also tired of it). We exit the runway and the Citation lands right on cue in the opposing direction with a tailwind. We were never at an unsafe distance from the jet.

Needless to say I'm getting pretty tired of some of these corporate guys expecting us to yield to them. So, would you have handled things differently? I have no problem in giving the right of way but I'm sure getting tired of other pilots not following the right of way rules and simply expecting me to yield because they are faster. Also worth mentioning I have given the most recent 2 examples but this has happened more times than that.

Might of sounded like a rant but I really would like to learn how others handle these situations.
__________________
Jereme Carne
PPL
RV-7A Emp. done
Wings done
Fuselage done
Finish kit almost done
Exempt but gladly paying!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-27-2020, 11:33 PM
SPX SPX is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: San Diego
Posts: 408
Default

As an RV owner, and corporate jet pilot, perhaps I can add some perspective as I see it..

First off, with both of the aircraft being Citations, they may not be "corporate guys" at all. Pretty likely they're owner operators, just like we are (of our RV's)

Scenario 1: Taking a quick look at KCOD, I don't see anything that says that runway 4 is the preferred runway. You may know this is a local, but me as a transient pilot, I would not. Therefore, based on the info that I can access as a transient pilot, really the choice of runway would be mine to make given the calm winds. Obviously, it would have been better for the Citation to get an understanding of any traffic before picking runway 22. Did the pilot make a call when taxiing from the FBO? If so, do you recall what your next call was after they made the call of taxiing from the FBO to runway 22? I question whether the pilot had the situational awareness when they left the FBO to know that there was another airplane landing on runway 4.

It sounds like the pilot was inconsiderate given your location, but there may be more to the story that we aren't privy to (IFR void time?) Certainly room for the Citation pilot to have handled this better, but given an average takeoff roll of 30 seconds, if the Citation were to offset to the left after takeoff, there was probably room for both of you if you extended your downwind just a few seconds. Of course, they could have politely asked if you'd do so...

Scenario 2: The Citation is likely certified to land with up to a 10 knot tailwind. My guess is they were coming from the north, and decided to make a straight in on runway 22 so they'd have a minimum taxi time to the FBO. Sloppy, yes. Illegal, no.

Bottom line is, at an uncontrolled airport, we should all do our best to coordinate with each other, and mix into the flow of traffic. Sometimes we have to take the high road, whether we're in a jet or a piston, regardless of who is "right."

It sounds like you made some great decisions, while the other aircraft made some questionable decisions. Since you aren't likely to change anyone, I'd encourage you to make good radio calls, and don't be afraid to ask the other pilot if they'd mind landing in the flow of prevailing traffic, or if they'd mind waiting for you to land. You might just get what you ask for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarne View Post
Okay, first if this thread isn't appropriate for these forums can a moderator please let me know and I'll take it elsewhere.

I fly out of KCOD which is Cody Wyoming. This is a pretty hot (by our standards) airport for corporate jet activity due to it's proximity to Yellowstone and ranches. I have had two issues with Citations lately and want your opinion on what you would have done.

Scenario 1

So there I was flying with a buddy entering a midfield crosswind for runway 4 (no traffic in the pattern). Winds were calm on the AWOS also verified by the wind sock. As a local pilot here runway 4 is the preferred runway for landing if winds calm (notice the location of the hangars). As we are overflying the field I see a Citation taxiing faster than any other aircraft in my life to 22 (I still don't know why he taxied 8000 feet on calm winds). Now we are past our abeam spot and slowing down. The pilot literally asks where we are to which we reply left downwind runway 4 about to turn base. He then comes on the radio and announces his departure on 22. Well this situation seems easy as we have no real option other than to yield the right of way and curse him profusely while fighting the urge to not key the mic.

Here is a pic of the airfield and our positions. (note: he was not lined up on the runway yet)

q by Jereme Carne, on Flickr

Scenario 2 (two days later different Citation)

There I was again this time with my instructor in the same exact position abeam the numbers for runway 4 when a Citation announces 10 mile final for runway 22. Today however, the winds strongly favor runway 4. I tell him where we are in the pattern and that we are closed traffic thinking he would get the clue. Well he didn't... as I'm on base he announces 6ish mile final if I remember right. As I turn final I tell him I'll make this a full stop and get out of his way. My instructor was irritated at the other pilot for sure but I also think he was a little irritated that I gave the Citation a full stop as well (he has a few other stories as well of instances like this and is also tired of it). We exit the runway and the Citation lands right on cue in the opposing direction with a tailwind. We were never at an unsafe distance from the jet.

Needless to say I'm getting pretty tired of some of these corporate guys expecting us to yield to them. So, would you have handled things differently? I have no problem in giving the right of way but I'm sure getting tired of other pilots not following the right of way rules and simply expecting me to yield because they are faster. Also worth mentioning I have given the most recent 2 examples but this has happened more times than that.

Might of sounded like a rant but I really would like to learn how others handle these situations.
__________________
RV-9A, Fallbrook Ca (L18)
Paid, Jan 2020
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-28-2020, 05:47 AM
DanH's Avatar
DanH DanH is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 9,526
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarne View Post
Might of sounded like a rant but I really would like to learn how others handle these situations.
Take a deep breath.

Privately consider their similarity to a thing pink, puckered, and round.

Forget about it.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-28-2020, 06:19 AM
pilotkms's Avatar
pilotkms pilotkms is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: WARNER ROBINS, GA
Posts: 396
Default Good info.

Thanx for the jet pilot perspective SPX. I have no problem modifying my pattern if a jet announces they are on approach. I treat them like 18 wheelers on the hiway. Theyre bigger than me and Im gonna lose if we connect in any way.
Had similar situation flying in to KFQD. Jet pilot thanked me for extending the downwind. Appreciated that and we had a good, friendly discussion while he checked out my RV.
__________________
Keith
RV 7A RV #9700 May 2017
N325KS the Flying K
Built in SoCal KCCB, now in GA @ KPXE
550+ Hours & 7X cross the USA
OSH flyin 2018 & 2019 & Petit Jean 2019
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-28-2020, 06:23 AM
swjohnsey swjohnsey is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Kingsville, TX
Posts: 188
Default

I fly out of a uncontrolled country airport (KIKG) with some business jet and Navy King Air traffic. I try to stay out of their way just for my peace of mind.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-28-2020, 07:01 AM
Latech15 Latech15 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: louisiana
Posts: 141
Default

I will typically offer to adjust my plans as a courtesy to the jets. I know the lower and slower rules, but think about what it costs us in fuel to loiter for a few minutes as opposed to them having to fly the pattern. I like being in my plane so I dont mind a little sight seeing. I also understand that my actions lead to a mindset in the jet pilots that us little guys should get out of their way but you simply have to let an a-hole be an a-hole and not let it affect you some times. The good pilots will understand what you did for them and appreciate it.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-28-2020, 07:27 AM
Snowflake's Avatar
Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,948
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latech15 View Post
I will typically offer to adjust my plans as a courtesy to the jets. I know the lower and slower rules, but think about what it costs us in fuel to loiter for a few minutes as opposed to them having to fly the pattern.
I hear this argument once in a while and I have always rejected it outright. If this is a corporate flight coming in to land, it has a revenue stream that pays for it to do so. I, in my personal aircraft, am paying for my own gas out of my own pocket. Let the paying customers fly the pattern like the rest of us. I hadn't considered that the jet may be privately owned just like my RV... That is a good point.

Regardless, there are clear right-of-way rules. Landing aircraft take priority... so the departing jet should have at least waited for the plane to land before departing, and the arriving jet should have conformed to the existing traffic pattern.
__________________
Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-28-2020, 07:32 AM
jrtens's Avatar
jrtens jrtens is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Utah
Posts: 101
Default

Try not to feel slighted. Most jet pilots are good guys who appreciate it when you help them out. I would just give them a break for two reasons. First, most of the time they are probably working and I am just playing. Second they burn a whole lot more fossil fuel than we do so the sooner they land or takeoff the better for Mother Earth.
__________________
Jon
12iS SLSA
Salt Lake Int'l
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-28-2020, 07:36 AM
Tom023 Tom023 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 415
Default

It’s just not Cody and it will continue to happen as long as you fly as there is no shortage of a-holes out there. When it happens to me I give way and use the situation to practice a bit...how perfect can I make a 360, a little slow flight, flying not a so perfect pattern, etc. I Just use it as an opportunity to adjust and practice. My favorite is on a seriously clear day, pattern is busy and someone announces they are on the RNAV, or worse, announces their position by the fix points.
__________________
RV14A #140083
Flying! 8/12/19
2019 Donation

Last edited by Tom023 : 07-28-2020 at 07:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-28-2020, 08:19 AM
AlpineYoda AlpineYoda is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 142
Default

I was flying on a checkride for a multiengine rating several years ago and we were coming into Erie airport (KEIK) just north of Denver to do a single engine landing. The field is untowered and we announced downwind, base, final, etc. It was a checkride - I was doing everything by the book.

There was a twin engine plane in the runup area, maybe an ATR 72 or something similar looking. I think there used to be a commuter airline out of there. Not sure if there still is. I have tended to stay away from Erie for training due to this incident, a nearby aerobatic box where no one has any idea of what proper spacing means, and the low overhead Class B shelf for Denver Intl.

Anyway, we are on final, less than a mile out. We announce the turn to final and we can see the plane inching toward the runway. The examiner gets on the radio and announces short final. The ATR speeds up the taxi and takes the runway when we are less than half a mile out.

The single engine climb rate in a Seminole with 6000+ feet of density altitude is approximately 0. We end up sidestepping the runway, level off at about 200 feet AGL, and fly past the accelerating plane close enough that we can see passengers looking at us out the window.

All the pilot can say when the examiner radios again and yells at him is "sorry guys!" in a laughing voice.

I sent in a NASA report and the examiner said he was going to file a complaint.

Needless to say, even the "pros" sometimes break all the rules and act like a**holes, too, sometimes.
__________________
RV-10 build blog -- https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blproject&proj=7ZSwfzr2g
Tail finished March 2020
Wings finished July 2020
Fuselage joined to tailcone on July 19, 2020

N1814T reserved with FAA
Donated through 12/31/2020, EAA and AOPA member

When it absolutely, positively doesn't matter when or if it ever gets there, ship with Old Dominion.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:03 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.