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Canopy Issue (after paint) ... Heartbreaking

bkervaski

Hellloooooooo!
Testing
Yikes! (the pic makes it look a lot worse than it actually is)

This happened at the paint shop already during reassembly, the painter fixed it perfect. Happened again this morning. Been about 15 flights in between.

The best I can tell the is that I left the canopy up on it's pins, which keeps it at an angle, on Saturday. Came out today to fly, lifted the canopy, and "pop", this happened. I think what has happened is that it was in a position where the front thin aluminum was touching *every so slightly* and it got a little tacky (temperature change?) and held it in place just long enough for the lip to catch the seal. The more it raised, the more it started bending and digging in.

Already talked with the painter, he can fix it again. Evoke is great, took my call on Christmas Eve, love Jonathan and his team.

The silver you see isn't from the canopy catching, it's from where I cut out some of the proseal so I could get the canopy up to take it off without causing more bending/damage. I had to wedge a credit card under there to get the canopy up, took some paint off the lip in the process.

At any rate, my questions to you guys:

1) Anyone else have this or a similar issue?
2) How much material did you have to take off the factory inset on the front of the canopy for fitting?
3) Any suggestions on how to permanently fix so it doesn't do it again?
4) Would *LOVE* to see pics of your fitment here for comparison.

Right now, my plan is to take about 1/16 of material off the front lip where Vans already provides an inset cut.

It's well fitting canopy, very good clearance all around.

Thoughts/suggestions/comments welcome.

And Merry Christmas everybody :)

oPS.jpg
 
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Not unusual, and you did not cause it. The underside of the canopy skin must be tapered and the upper side of the forward skin. The gap closes when opening and if tight down does not lift fast enough (several reasons) the skins will butt and bend. I have a spot just like that (-7) and currently have a strip of UHMW tape under it.

That area is well known to the 7 crowd, at least the tip ups.
 
I did that during assembly when I had the skin clecoed in place. I had opened and closed a number of times, then it caught. I am concerned about this long term. I don't have the top skin in place permanently in place yet.
 
Join the club

I had the same thing happen on my -14. Happened twice. First time was after paint when the canopy was opened for the first time. Filed back/beveled the skin some more. Second time the plane had been sitting on the ramp in the sun and things expanded. Lifted the canopy and heard the ?pop.? ****! Filed back/beveled some more. All good now except the skin is bent and I haven?t been able to unbend it. Now she's no longer perfect but I still love her!
 
Mine too

After several fittings, multiple openings and closings and thinking I had it dialed-in mine grabbed near the right clip cover. Bent the canopy skin down as well. I?m still building but I?ll have to circle back to the canopy chapter and work on that some more.

My forward seal is visible between the canopy and forward skins when it?s closed and locked. I know I placed it properly but I?m going to remove and replace. I think it may have been part of my problem.
 
The flaw here has to do with the relatively short/compact canopy hinges Van's uses on the tipups. If the hinge points were moved a few inches forward, the skin would not catch. Take a look at the Lancair Legacy canopy hinges to see what I'm talking about.
 
My forward seal is visible between the canopy and forward skins when it?s closed and locked.
Mine was the same, I end up moving it every a bit back thru multiple tries. I did not take a picture but as I recall the seal is about 1/8" to possibly 3/16' aft of the edge of the skin. Thru a simple water hose test, it does not leak but time will tell as the force of the rain at high speed could prove different.
 
Thanks for the feedback all!

The consensus so far seems to be that I need to taper the canopy bottom skin and perhaps shave back the skin another 16th.

Keep the suggestions coming :)
 
My 6A did this decades ago - the bend in the skin is still there despite filing it back multiple times and attempting to counter-bend it back to straight. It's due to the pneumatic lift struts pushing forward pretty hard on the canopy when it's closed, as well a failure to relieve and bevel the skin edges as described.

If it makes you feel better, it's now among the least noticeable blemishes on my 20 year old airframe and paint job. :p
 
The issue isn't with the skins touching .. the issue, after some research, is the proseal application. This is a much bigger issue than I initially thought that will take some time to remedy. Very discouraging.

This is a QB fuse and the QB folks ran the sealant bead too high. They ran it all the way to the F-01471 top skin effectively creating an angle for the front of the canopy skin to have an opportunity to grab where the intent is for it to sit parallel to the top of F-01455.

I'm going to have to dig out the seal and re-apply it properly. Hopefully, the plugs in the various holes on F-01455 won't come out in the process.

When I pull the seal a good bit of that edge will need refinishing and blended so it's going to cost me a few bucks and, sadly, a good bit of downtime.

I've also noticed the same incorrect proseal application on some builder blogs out there while doing research where, for aesthetics, that seal is being run up to the F-01471 skin. Hoping those guys get lucky and it's not an issue for them.
 
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bkervaski, review the last page of section 35, 35-22 especially Section A-A, before you get too far along. It does look as if the tank sealant has some fillet on top of the F-01455-C flanges.

My quick build kit also has what looks to be more sealant than the plans show, but so far (touch wood!) hasn't been a problem with the canopy operation.

Good luck! And let us know how you address the issues.
 
Me too, plus another QB fuselage disappointment

The same thing happened to me months back after finishing up the canopy and glassing the fillet transition to the canopy plexiglas.

After resetting the canopy frame onto the fuselage (a QB fuselage) and closing it and then opening it, the canopy skin at the right canopy hinge caught and deformed with an ugly 'pop'. At first I thought it was that the front edge of the canopy skin needed to be filed to allow more clearance to the forward top fuselage skin. Did a little filing and closed and reopened canopy - 'pop'. A little more inspection to realize that it was an excessive amount of a proseal bead that was tacking to the canopy skin and holding it to the point of bending the edge before it released when opening the canopy.

What I did that seems to have worked, is to carefully cut/scrape the proseal with a few different Xacto blades. Seems to keep it from sticking and now to straighten out/fill/blend-in the deformed skin before I paint.

Something that I found to be questionable about the 14A QB fuselage is that I did not believe that the interior of the fuselage had not been primed in the Philippines with the reported SW etching primer (light brownish green colored). My QB fuselage interior had no primer - I believed, at least there was no visible primer.

At the time, two years ago, I checked with Van's and was told that the primer was there, but it is 'clear'. A bit surprised with that, but accepted the explanation. Now, after having others look at the 'primed' areas that never got any paint applied and to areas where I did put another paint coat on. Where I did over-coat the 'primer', the paint rubs off with not much effort. In the areas where I did not paint over, a couple of aircraft and car painters agree with me that there is no 'clear' primer there, that it's bare aluminum - in their opinion. I have done a little scraping here and there and I do not believe that there is 'clear' primer there. I should have done my own priming.
 
Something that I found to be questionable about the 14A QB fuselage is that I did not believe that the interior of the fuselage had not been primed in the Philippines with the reported SW etching primer (light brownish green colored). My QB fuselage interior had no primer - I believed, at least there was no visible primer.

At the time, two years ago, I checked with Van's and was told that the primer was there, but it is 'clear'. A bit surprised with that, but accepted the explanation. Now, after having others look at the 'primed' areas that never got any paint applied and to areas where I did put another paint coat on. Where I did over-coat the 'primer', the paint rubs off with not much effort. In the areas where I did not paint over, a couple of aircraft and car painters agree with me that there is no 'clear' primer there, that it's bare aluminum - in their opinion. I have done a little scraping here and there and I do not believe that there is 'clear' primer there. I should have done my own priming.

All QB kits are internally primed, but it isn't super obvious to someone expecting it to look like a traditional pigmented primer.

If you place a piece of bare aluminum on an interior surface, it is then obvious that there is a very contrasting difference in appearance.
 
@Logan have you painted yet?

Yes, painted. And looking at 35-22 again more closely, I think I have similar proseal application to yours. Meaning, it doesn't taper off at top of the bend in the F-01455 but goes to the top skin, F-01471.

I'm not sure why it isn't sticking on ours, but am glad it hasn't. Where exactly is it catching? Right above the hinge locations? I think I remember doing some filing here, but honestly can't be sure...
 
The little ding on the front of the canopy happened to me too before I painted. I think it still ended up with a little kink in the skin, and if I remember right, I had to do a little filing as well. All the details are fuzzy now as that was probably almost 3 years ago, but I did have it happen there in the same spot.
 
Yes, painted. And looking at 35-22 again more closely, I think I have similar proseal application to yours. Meaning, it doesn't taper off at top of the bend in the F-01455 but goes to the top skin, F-01471.

I have almost 20 hours on the airplane since I got it back from paint and it just now did that ... so beware ... temperature changes, etc, may cause it to happen. Doesn't take much and you don't know it's happening until you hear the dreaded "pop".

I'm going to remove that proseal and run it correctly.

My problem is I'm not going to be able to live with that line looking like **** afterwards so it's going to cost me a few $$ to get the painter to fix it.
 
Are there consensuses that the proseal sticks to the skin and pulls it down when it is lifted or that the edge of skin digs in to the proseal and gets bent
 
Are there consensuses that the proseal sticks to the skin and pulls it down when it is lifted or that the edge of skin digs in to the proseal and gets bent

Looks like a combination of both. The proseal and skin get "tacky", perhaps temperature related, and that's enough to hold it in place until the edge digs in as you raise it.

The red line shows where the QB sealant was applied and can potentially (likely, eventually) cause the issue.

Per the manual, there should be no sealant on top of F-01455 aft of F-01471 and no opportunity for the canopy forward edge to grab the sealant.

Edit: In fairness to the QB folks, I didn't have many issues with my QB fuse and wings, they were very well built, only minor issues, I would buy a QB again. However, to have my beautifully painted canopy take a hit like this is a bit heartbreaking and the month of downtime it's going to cause me is frustrating.

oPV.png
 
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I wonder if humid weather causes proseal to be sticker? From all I have seen, proseal once cured it will not seem tacky anymore. Perhaps it gets softer and easier to dig into.
Do you have your front seal in place? It is a soft foam and when closed it gets flattened and spread to more area. One would think it will be a layer between the skin and proseal but not at the very forward edge.

I will examine mine today, not sure how well I can see with the canopy in place. I suspect it comes up to the F-1455 but not on the 1471.

I got one more hour to get out of jail, end of phase one. Today will be signing ceremony, so speak.
 
I wonder if humid weather causes proseal to be sticker?

Think "tacky" not really "sticky". That canopy front skin is thin, it doesn't take much to hold it in place while the act of raising the canopy shoves it into proseal that shouldn't be there.

It only takes a fraction of a second to happen and, after opening it a hundred times without issue, you don't really feel the need to baby it.

Once the canopy forward edge comes in contact with the proseal, any upward movement applies forward pressure and keeps it in place and it will start bending until you get the dreaded "pop".

It's probably only ever going to be an issue on the top middle where the canopy skin is easily bendable.
 
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Just a quick follow up to this post ... I removed the QB seal, wasn't terrible to remove just a bit time consuming. Some masking tape and new razor blades are all that was needed. The rib holes that were filled from below cut clean so no issues there, turned out good.

Once removed the bare aluminum will need to be prepped and painted.

I *highly* recommend everyone check this on their build, it will happen to you if there is sealant up top, just a matter of time.
 
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Would you happen to have pictures of before/after you removed the sealant? I have a QB Fuse and want to make sure I understand exactly the issue, thanks.
 
Would you happen to have pictures of before/after you removed the sealant? I have a QB Fuse and want to make sure I understand exactly the issue, thanks.

Will do, next time I'm at the hangar I'll grab pics.

If you don't mind, post a pic of yours.
 
Here is a pic of the proseal on the QB fuse. Will I need to trim?

My recommendation is to pull the seal off and re-do it per the manual, there shouldn't be any sealant on top. Take a look at my pic in post 19, note only the shaded areas have sealant. Yours is how mine was, the canopy has a chance of grabbing and bending under.
 
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Does anyone have a photo of what the seal area should look like? Many of us have QB fuselages with seals that look like the photo in post 25. Before randomly removing seal material, it would be helpful to know what we are trying to achieve. :confused:
 
The problem is that when you perform step1 (se post #19) during placement the top skin, you will most likely get some sealant on the top.

It appears that the QB folks place a large excessive bead of sealant over this entire area afterwards so it forms a slope like the red line in my diagram on post 19, basically forming a ramp for which the front skin can grab.

When I removed that there is still sealant in the required areas and it separated cleanly like the final sealant was applied afterwards.

I'll get pics next time I'm at the hangar.
 
I took a tiny bit more material off the forward edge of the canopy in the central area than the plans would have suggested - is this an effective strategy to reduce risk of this happening? I'm also going to carefully check / remove sealant in the area on fuse.
 
Just looking at this on my plane as I close up the last of the forward top skin.
Section 35-22 step 5 says to fill the gaps in the relief notches with proseal. I read it that you don't seal right along there with proseal only the relief notches.
Is there any reason to proseal right along there if it cause the canopy seal to stick and bend the canopy skin?
 
Step 5 is to fill just the relief notches by taping over them and spreading proseal from the inside under the forward skin. The tape keeps the proseal flush with the F-01455 so the canopy skin forward edge can sit flush.

Step 6 has you run a bead of sealant in the gap between the F-01455 and F-01455C?s otherwise water could work its way between them. The problem is when this bead is to thick/wide and rides up onto the F-01455.

Apparently, for some reason, the QB folks go back and put a thick bead of proseal over the entire area. It's clear that they did the steps correctly but why they went back and put another line on afterwards is puzzling.
 
After speaking with the Van's tech line yesterday, I ordered pro seal remover (polygone gel) and more pro seal. I plan to remove the excess material from my QB fuselage and reinstall only enough to form a water seal.
 
After speaking with the Van's tech line yesterday, I ordered pro seal remover (polygone gel) and more pro seal. I plan to remove the excess material from my QB fuselage and reinstall only enough to form a water seal.

I didn't have much trouble removing it with just a razor blade, took about 2 hours.
 
Just a quick resurrection of this thread ... There were a few others that had issues with the C-01447 seal "bulging" out. This is also caused by the incorrect application of the proseal.

The way the edge is designed it will keep the C-01447 in place. The "ramp" of proseal applied by the quickbuild folks doesn't hold it in place causing it to squeeze out the front.
 
I was able to remove the excess proseal from my QB, mostly with a razor blade, as Bill suggested. The polygone was not very effective removing the bulk of the material, I guess from age and the temperature in my workshop. I used the polygone to remove the remnants. Then, I reapplied just a tiny bead of proseal along the joint to make sure water could not infiltrate. Probably didn?t need to reapply any, as there was a bit left in the seam. I only reapplied because I had already bought the proseal. :rolleyes:
 
My RV7 TU seal I put in about 6 years ago is going to have to be replaced. I dread it because I have to take the canopy off to work on it properly.

Anyway, I see the 14 has guidance for pro seal on the metal bits to help fill all the notches and gaps. I plan to learn from this thread to do that while I am at it. Not going to be easy since I have to remove a bunch of stuff from in front of the sub panel to get to that area.

A question I have is what kind of actual seal is vans providing to sit on top of the seal ledge for the 14? What is it?s part number and what does it look like?

Last time I used an edge gripping McMaster Carr bulb seal and it started bulging after a while and the bulb broke free from its gripper. Looking for a better alternative.
 
Looks like a combination of both. The proseal and skin get "tacky", perhaps temperature related, and that's enough to hold it in place until the edge digs in as you raise it.

The red line shows where the QB sealant was applied and can potentially (likely, eventually) cause the issue.

Per the manual, there should be no sealant on top of F-01455 aft of F-01471 and no opportunity for the canopy forward edge to grab the sealant.

Edit: In fairness to the QB folks, I didn't have many issues with my QB fuse and wings, they were very well built, only minor issues, I would buy a QB again. However, to have my beautifully painted canopy take a hit like this is a bit heartbreaking and the month of downtime it's going to cause me is frustrating.

oPV.png

Bill,

Can you tell me what drawing number this clip came from?
 
Magnus, I think the issue is that the clearance that you make (per plans) during construction is not enough to account for any temperature changes or slight shifting of the canopy assembly forward. Mine did this also and I noticed the gap I had changes quite a bit. In fact, I opened up the gap slightly where the clips are so it wouldn't catch and then about 6 months later I had it catch again and bend. This time I removed the canopy, increased the gap another 1/32", bent the hooked part of the clips down further, and fixed the bent skin then repainted the front of the canopy. So far no issue again but I watch the gap to make sure it's stable. I don't think the proseal is the issue really other than it can push the skin up and bend when the canopy assembly shifts around and moves slightly with temperature.
 
I had this happen during fitting of the canopy--still in the build phase. I think that my plan is not only to consider the gap, but also I am considering the top lip of the front top skin. I plan to file it on top to "round off" the top edge of the skin. I am hoping that this will help to prevent the canopy from catching on the skin.

You can see in the picture in the previous post the sharp edge of the skin where the red line hits the skin. That is what I am going after.

Thoughts?
 
The canopy moves up and forward simultaneously.. post a pic of your top seal.. I can tell by that if you?ll have the same issue ..
 
I tried to use one of the aftermarket covers for the hinge and got the dreaded "Pop" when opening canopy. I removed the canopy and was able to satisfactorily fix the bend at edge. This event occurred after I had removed all the proseal of concern as discussed earlier in this thread. I ended up easing back the edges in the areas most likely to catch, including around the hinge covers, and going back to the factory hinge covers. Cosmetically this is not even noticeable unless you look at many RV-14s daily.

Fortunately for me this happened before paint so I didn't have to fix paint.

I wonder if Van's might want to look at this part of the design. The tolerances are so close and the impact of the most minimal binding at the front edge is so "heartbreaking" that this could probably use a bit of re-work either in the design or the instructions for builders. From what I can tell, if the D-seals are set back a bit from the edge there should be a good seal even if the gap at canopy edge is slightly wider.

I haven't done any precipitation stress tests so not sure my theory holds water. I tend to be a fair weather pilot and if leaving aircraft on the ramp for any period of time I'll put a cover on. I did put a little piece of clear paint protective film over the hinge covers after paint as I feel this area might be a bit vulnerable, even with properly installed foam seals and gasket dressing.
 
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I saw this post and presumed these were RVPlasticParts.

Would a larger chamfer on the canopy side be beneficial?

cap2_zpsf9t57cbu.png


cap3_zpsexpdu2rl.png
 
Steve,

Your part works very well, although I did have to adjust the chamfer on mine and took some material off the top. After the emotional trauma :eek: of having to rework and paint that front skin twice I took probably an unusual amount of time to fit them.

Everybody's edge could be different and there's not much clearance in that area.

But that's not what caused the dreaded pop that started this thread, what happens there is that as the canopy moves up it also moves forward and that thin skin will grab an improper seal and then dig in and fold under. It's quite terrible :(

Also regarding the RVPlasticParts Hinge Cover, the hinge area needs to be really cleaned up of any paint or filler for these (and the stock clips) to fit properly. It takes some time with a razor blade or similar to get the hinge area ready. If you just pop them in there, the RVPlasticParts Hinge Cover may sit to high or too far back.
 
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I saw this post and presumed these were RVPlasticParts.

Would a larger chamfer on the canopy side be beneficial?

cap2_zpsf9t57cbu.png


cap3_zpsexpdu2rl.png

Steve - I think it may require a combination of that along with modifying the canopy edge. I didn't really bother to investigate the issue deeply as I just made the decision to move on with factory covers. FYI I'm not blaming your product - it never occurred to me to consider this might happen: I had put the cover on for test fitting without paying much attention to how well I had fitted it to my airplane or considering possible interference with the canopy edge. I was testing the little screw-in mechanism and the provided piece to position the internal fitting for screw, and opened the canopy without even thinking about paying attention to the cover.
 
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