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Who wears a parachute in the RV (and successful bailouts)?

Captain Avgas said:
...Many people believe that wearing a chute in a slider serves no purpose other than to generate a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Then there's that sticky little detail about the FAR's requiring both occupants to be wearing chutes when doing aerobatics.
 
Other than fire, under what circumstances would one want to bail? Major loss of control, right? In such a situation, the canopy might be real easy to open. In fact, I'll bet that under the right (wrong) circumstances, unlatching might be all it takes.
 
Just an observation.....It seems that many times when a builder has a question for this forum there is always someone(not pointing fingers!) out there that says it has already been discussed go search the forum. Invariably after that comment, the line of discussion stops.
This forum has been around long enough that most all subjects have been discussed at some time or another. I would think that there are builders out there that have useful and up to date information on a subject that should be discussed but are put off by the "already discussed" comment. Whats wrong with more discussion? JMHO


Jim Kinsey
7A Fuselage
 
Jkkinz said:
Whats wrong with more discussion? JMHO

Nothing is wrong with more discussion, but wouldn't you want to benefit from previous discussions and the knowledge contained in the archives? There are so many new folks to the forums that aren't aware just how much stuff is already in the archives that we like to make them aware of them. I agree that it is a bad thing if it stifles new or additional discussion, but that isn't the intent - it is to help better illuminate what has already been shared.

(FYI - Before I tell people to "check the archives", I usually look at their "post count" in the upper right hand corner...if it is high, I figure they have been around long enough to know. If low, then I try to gracefully help them to see what is already there.)
 
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I thinking of a chute for two reasons...

1. Wife, Mom and Sister are on my back to get one.
2. It's nice to have a second option, you never know what might happen.
 
MacNab said:
Then there's that sticky little detail about the FAR's requiring both occupants to be wearing chutes when doing aerobatics.
Yes, if there are two occupants but if solo, no chute is required by the FAR's. I'm not saying that you shouldn't wear one, just that one isn't required.

BTW, Paul, I'm on your side regarding the "Search the Archives" thing.
 
N941WR said:
...Yes, if there are two occupants but if solo, no chute is required by the FAR's. I'm not saying that you shouldn't wear one, just that one isn't required...

Yup, that's why I said 'both occupants'. Not sure if I'd wear one solo unless doing the really hairy stuff. The biggest reason I wear one in a glider is because of the increased danger of a midair. As someone already said, there's more then a few scenarios that will make getting the canopy open and exiting the debris possible, there's just as many situations that will make you an unwilling passenger for the ride down.
 
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Pros and Cons

Good post nothing to add, but there are three negatives, it cost money, adds weight and is not as comfortable as a regular seat back.

There is one plus, it may save your life and passenger life some day. If you do dual acro its the law.

Once you get use to wearing a chute, you feel naked with out it. If you buy it and leave it in the hanger it will not do much good.

PS> Yes there have been many bail out's in single engine planes; Don't recall any in RV's specifically, but many acro pilots have bailed out and lived to fly another day. In fact a famous acro pilot just survived a bail out of a Sukhoi SU-31. (I think he bailed; info sketchy whether he bailed or rode the plane down that was destroyed by fire in a wooded area.)


Sukhoi SU-31 Down In Virginia

Fri, 24 Aug '07
Rescuers Meet Pilot Walking Down Mountain

ANN has confirmed with the airshow community the identity of the pilot of a Suhkoi Su-31 that went down Thursday in Virginia.

He is famed aerobatic pilot and coach Sergei Boriak, who -- in addition to his accomplishments as an aerobatic performer -- has also trained such notable performers as Patty Wagstaff, Gene Soucy, Mike Goulian, Kirby Chambliss, Keith Leedom, and Matt Chapman.

Aero-News is awaiting an update on Boriak's condition. As reported earlier, rescuers met the pilot as he walked down a hill from the accident site, and transported him to an area hospital.

It isn't clear if Boriak rode the aircraft in, or if he bailed out.

The FAA Preliminary Report states the accident aircraft, Boriak's aerobatic Sukhoi Su-31, was destroyed in the crash.
ORIGINAL REPORT

Virginia State Police report a 1999 Sukhoi SU-31 went down Thursday afternoon in a wooded area in northern Fauquier County.

----------------

He has burns on his hands and face, possible broken bones - but is okay.
 
Successful bailouts

I searched the FAA Accident Database at:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp#query_start
and couldn't find any bailouts from RV's, using the search terms 'parachute' on one search and 'bail out' on another. I did find two successful bailouts from Christen Eagles and one from a Pitts. Curiously, Len Fox's successful bailout from the spin test on the Lancair Columbia 400 did not come up on the search.

We cannot conclude from even an exhaustive search finding no successful bailouts from RV's that a successful bailout from any RV is unlikely -- all such could mean is that one hasn't happened, yet.

From reviewing the archives, past thoughts indicate that it might be a good idea to remove the gas struts from tip-up canopies, and use a lanyard-type restraint.
 
EXACTLY!

L'Avion said:
From reviewing the archives, past thoughts indicate that it might be a good idea to remove the gas struts from tip-up canopies, and use a lanyard-type restraint.
That's the main reason that I haven't installed "struts" on my -6. I have the original canopy "hold-up" rod that was supplied with my kit plus an additional one on the right side for somewhat windy conditions. Both are completely disconnected when the canopy is closed.
 
L'Avion said:
past thoughts indicate that it might be a good idea to remove the gas struts from tip-up canopies, and use a lanyard-type restraint.

The gas struts just pop out of the ball joints with a good tug. Remember too that for the canopy to be jettisonable you MUST chop out the forward top skin so the hinges can slide out the top. It's not enough to just install the release mechanism.

I'm curious if the tip-up could even come off in flight. It seems to me that the lugs would probably bind up in the holes. Yeah, it would probably break them off...but it wouldn't be a simple departure from the aircraft.

If the airplane is in a controlled situation but you see the need to bail out (a la Sean Tucker) the struts would not create a considerable obstacle.
 
RV6 Bail out

I have a RV6 with inv systems, I do acro quite a bit , I did put removable pins in the tubes over the rollers , the thought being I could pull the pins and get the canopy open a few inches and shove....hopefully it will work. :eek:

Peter
 
re: chute with slider canopy

Mel said:
I wear a chute when doing acro in my -6. My chute is 22 years old but has never been opened in flight and is stored in the closet when not in use. If you have a tip-up, you must remove the gas struts to utilize the canopy jettison. Mine was built before the gas struts and has the original latch which isn't attached with the canopy closed. If you have a slider, I'm sure you can't open it in flight anyway. I also wear the chute while flight testing. But I don't so as much of that as I used to.
Mel...DAR

Can someone please explain why you cannot get the slider canopy open?

Thanks,

Brian
 
The whole suggestion that you cannot open a slider canopy in flight doesn't make sense to me. I have read all of the posts discussing aerodynamic loads etc and the situation I see is that they all assume that you will be in controlled flight flying straight and level.

The few scenarios that have been offered as reasons to bail out are unconrollable fire, structural failure and flight control failure.

In all but the structural failure scenario (in which who knows what has happened or how the aircraft is situated) you still have control authority over the aeroplane (even with the control failure).

I don't know if I would even bail out with a control failure. During my training years back my instructor regularly simulated failing of a particular control surface and through the substitution of other controls we would still land o.k (ie.turn with rudder instead of aileron, elevator trim instead of elevator etc). I was suprised at how well I could control the aeroplane this way. I understand if you had a jammed control in a deflected position that this may be a different story.

If you did decide to jump and you had control authority, why couldn't you climb the aircraft steeply to result in a nose high stall? you would then have slower airspeed to provide less aerodynamic load and gravity and the weight of the canopy to help you open it.

I intend on wearing a chute in all regimes of flight as you just never know. My biggest fear is structural failure. In this case your all but certainly going in so you might as give yourself a fighting chance.

Once again just my 2 cents. At the end of the day it all comes down to personal preference.

Commenting on others posts, I think the idea about egress training (whether someone elses or creating your own) is an excellent idea. I also liked the comment about not underestemating the abilities of a dying man.
 
The solution is obvious. Install a whole-airframe ballistic recovery system to elliminate the aerodynamic forces, open the canopy, and bail out using your back pack.
 
kevinh said:
Allen is a great guy...
I completely agree! Quick Allen story... When I was involved in the local IAC chapter, for something like three years in a row (maybe more) Allen, no matter how hard he tried to avoid it, walked away from our annual holiday party gift exchange (white elephant) with a can of Spam. He was always a good sport about it and joked that we would eventually regret it -- he said that some day one of us would need to use our chute and upon bailout we just might find the pull top from a can of Spam in place of the d-ring on the chute. :eek: :D

Sorry for the diversion, back to the scheduled discussion...
 
To the original question...has anyone jumped out of an RV-8? Yes as attested to in this accident report from 07/99. Note however, he was not wearing a chute. He might have survived otherwise. I always wore a chute in my RV-8 and still wear one in my RV-4. (It's a softie)

Accident occurred Saturday, July 10, 1999 in LAFAYETTE, OR
Probable Cause Approval Date: 11/30/2000
Aircraft: Alexander VAN'S RV-8, registration: N41VA
Injuries: 1 Fatal.While en route during an unknown phase of operation, the O-360-A1A engine, which had been overhauled by a facility in Canada and converted with 'high compression' pistons/cylinders, developed a partial power loss after about 35 hours of total operation. Metallurgical examination revealed that the #2 connecting rod fractured in two places due to fatigue at the rod end resulting in release of the rod from the crankshaft. No evidence of engine disassembly or maintenance by the owner/builder was found. Post-crash examination revealed holes in the upper engine case and disintegration of the #1 piston. A witness reported observing the aircraft at low altitude over gently rolling terrain trailing black smoke during which the pilot was observed to exit the aircraft. The aircraft rolled into a descending right turn and impacted the terrain 600 feet from the pilot's ground impact, and a post-crash explosion and fired ensued. Reconstruction of portions of the aircraft revealed sooting and evidence of pre-impact fire forward of the firewall in the vicinity of the gascolator as well as pre-impact heat damage to the Plexiglas windscreen and canopy. The only evidence of heat/fire distress observed during post-mortem was the pilot's eyebrows and forward hairline. The aircraft's canopy is airfoil shaped and during flight conditions would tend to create an aerodynamic low pressure condition near the top of the canopy. If the canopy were opened in flight with fire conditions existing along its forward exterior surface, the entrainment of hot air and fire within the upper cockpit interior environment may have become intolerable for the pilot.
 
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The aircraft's canopy is airfoil shaped and during flight conditions would tend to create an aerodynamic low pressure condition near the top of the canopy. If the canopy were opened in flight with fire conditions existing along its forward exterior surface, the entrainment of hot air and fire within the upper cockpit interior environment may have become intolerable for the pilot.

Well, this kinda debunks the theory that you even "should" open the canopy in flight when you have a fire. Sounds like a job for the Myth Busters. Reminds me of the scene from Fly Boys, not pretty.

How much do parachutes cost and how do you keep them maintained? I would guess that they would need periodic inspections and repacking.
 
Chute Prices

How much do parachutes cost and how do you keep them maintained? I would guess that they would need periodic inspections and repacking.

The price of a new chute varies somewhat on chute type/size and container style. Expect to pay around $1600-$2000 plus. I bought my Mini-Softie (http://www.softieparachutes.com/) at Sun-N-Fun. They were offering a pretty good show discount. I also saw Allen Silver?s seminar at Sun-N-Fun, he?s fun to listen to.

The price of chutes seems to be like new cars. As soon as you buy a brand new one, their resale price drops significantly. I have seen a few good chutes on EBay go for well under one third the price of a new one. I bought new because I wanted a large square chute since I have skydiving experience on squares. Round canopies are recommended for non skydivers.

The repacking/inspecting is done every 120 days and can usually be done at your local Skydiving center. Depending on the chute type, a repack can run $25-$75, which is a small price for anything related to aviation.

Being an old skydiver, I figure why not wear a chute. You never know when something unforeseen will happen. Even Sean Tucker needed to use one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm4dXC7aVzs
 
Which square?

Skyfrog-

For those of us with a similar background, care to share which square you put in your container? Their website doesn't list compatible canopies other than the conicals, or pack volumes. What about cost premium on the square option?

I'm thinking a Stiletto 120 with dive loops on the front risers? Ok, just kidding on that one (and I probably dated myself by making that comment).

Part of the decision is obviously opening speed from sub terminal...I imagine a round is better for this? Though, the BASE guys are using squares from insanely low altitudes these days.
 
No need for dive loops when you have a nice big 4-point stitch pattern at the end of the Type-7 riser;)

I know the question wasn't directed towards me, but after videoing PD drop tests, that's my choice. One of the tests was for the 99R with 310 lbs. at 200 knots, some other tests (bigger canopies & more weight) were done at 240 knots. At those speeds packing tabs were whipping around so fast they were burning holes in the top skin:eek: so we cut them off:)
 
Emergency Parachutes

www.parachuteshop.com has specific emergency chute recommendations for various aircraft, including RVs. They carry all major brands and occasionally have used pilot and skydiving gear. They are a full service shop (repair, rigging, etc).

As an added bonus you may spot Doug Reeves' alter ego...
 
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don't unbuckle first?

In this thread--I was surprised to read that you open canopy prior to releasing your seat belts.

In the 7a slider, I can't move much and I don't have much backwards arm strength.

I would envision myself having to pivot on my knees to push the canopy open.

(one day I was preflighting the RV and a instructor watching a solo student walked over; and asked me if, like his old Grumman, could I fly with the canopy open. I explained -- nope, these canopies need to be closed and won't open anyway.

I take off and get over the lake and the plane noise is getting louder and louder. My canopy was an inch or two open. I closed and latched it easily. And then berated myself the rest of the flight.)
 
Square Size

For those of us with a similar background, care to share which square you put in your container?

I have the PD Reserve-253, stuffed into a MiniSoftie container. The chute is the right size for my weight, however I'm not sure how well the container will work in an RV9.

Does anyone know the preferred container for RV?
 
Through the Canopy?

I've noticed all the talk of the potential difficulty/impossibility of getting an RV-7 sliding canopy open in flight in order to ops check egress. What about not trying and going through the canopy? A crash knife or compact emergency hammer should do the trick. It's not like you'd expect the thing to be reusable anyway. Would that be practical?
 
I've noticed all the talk of the potential difficulty/impossibility of getting an RV-7 sliding canopy open in flight in order to ops check egress. What about not trying and going through the canopy? A crash knife or compact emergency hammer should do the trick. It's not like you'd expect the thing to be reusable anyway. Would that be practical?

Not really - it would take a while to bang around and you don't have good angles. If the _very_ unlikely happened and you needed to bail from a slider RV, I think you are better pulling the handle and sliding it back. If the canopy don't open just pull the pins. (See mod at http://flickr.com/photos/funkym0nkey/111514227/in/set-72057594080611752/ )
 
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