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Another Builder, another round of questions!

Echo Tango

Well Known Member
Received my empennage kit yesterday. Spent about an hour and a half doing inventory and figuring out which tools I was missing. I have to say it was a little like Christmas opening up all of those neatly packed parts! Unfortunately, I'll have to wait a week or so for some key tools to arrive (scotchbrite wheel, air drill, etc...).

I'm on the pay-as-I-go plan, so getting started might take a while. Will have to decide between the DRDT-2 and a pneumatic squeezer in the coming weeks. I do have a hand dimpler (rivet-gun style), but I have heard they are fairly inconsistent. Which is more important at this point?

Also, I was planning on priming my internals with a higher-end self-etching Zinc Chromate, as I live in Michigan and don't really have any use for a heavy epoxy. Do I need to prime everything or should I just stick to the spars? :confused:
I would also like to avoid constructing a paint booth if at all possible.
 
For my money, the DRDT2 will be a better investment.

You can make do with a hand squeezer, and a rivet gun.

You can also make do with a "C" frame that you hit with a mallet, so there is not really a single correct answer.

There are a lot of places where the pneumatic squeezer will not fit, once you start getting things together.
 
Hi Frank

Welcome to VAF and the neatest RV site there is! Congratulations on your start.

Since you don't live near a salt water environment, reconsider all that priming/cost/weight it will cause. I'm 100 miles from Savannah and nothing was primed on my -6A but the insides of the pushrods, because they're not Alclad like the rest of the airplane, and also the insides of the steel steps were primed. My -10's not internally primed either.

There are piles of Cessnas and Pipers at coastal airports, near salt water and they're not internally primed either. Many FBO's and private individuals offer Corrosion X treatment, where they mist a Mil-spec oily film into your fuselage, wings and tail to handle any corrosion issues.

Do a search on primers, get a beer or three, and read to your hearts content:)

Best,
 
When I started our rv project, I was looking to not spend any more than necessary and so was not planning on getting a pneumatic squeezer. My building partner (my son) insisted we get one. I have to say that he was 100% correct. The pneumatic squeezer is a very usefull tool and will make dimples,in particular, much better than a hand squeezer. See if you can get one second hand, I can assure you in the longer term of your building you will not regret spending the money.:)
 
Welcome to the world of building! Once you get started it goes pretty quick if you can work on something all the time.

I have both a pneumatic squeezer and a DRDT2. Like Mike said get the DRDT-2 now. Hands down the best buy if you only can buy one right now. Later as you get some extra money, get the pneumatic squeezer. You'll be glad you have both.
 
Build within your budget. There will be a LOT more tool choices you will have to make while on this LONG journey.

I used a C-frame dimpler and the Avery’s hand squeezer and my RV has over 300 hours on it. If you elect to go with a C-frame, build a set of the dimpling tables I describe on this page of my web site.

Truth is, you will want a hand squeezer, even if you get the pneumatic squeezer. So start with the hand squeezer and then if you need, get the pneumatic one. Same goes with the DRDT2, buy the C-frame and then if you don’t get good results or don’t like it, buy the DRDT2.

As for the primer thing, time to get familiar with the search button, that is one of the “never ending debates”.

Where in Michigan are you? I'm sure there are a few RV's under construction close by. Contact your local EAA chapter and see if you can't hook up with someone will demo their tools and let you try them.

Good luck with your -7!
 
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Im in the same boat as you. My project is a pay as I go, But I did pony up for the isham tool kit that comes with the drdt-2 and the squeezer. The pneumatic squeezer is worth it's weight in gold!

I also am priming but as I progress through my wing kit Im doing less and less. Now Im just priming the surfaces where metal meets metal.

Enjoy your project and dont be afraid to ask any questions. The people on this site are amazing.

Trevor
 
Welcome to VAF Frank :)

I too am in Michigan. I just started my RV-7(A?) empennage a few weeks ago.

As to your primer question see my blog post here for my personal decisions on this. I also mentioned my first impressions of the primer I chose here.

As to the DRDT-2 vs squeezer question, I got both as part of my kit from Isham. At this point in the build process I consider the squeezer to be far more valuable than the dimpler. You can dimple with the squeezer of course but it also sets some VERY nice, clean rivets.

Happy building!
 
Abreviations foreign to me

I assume you made the choice to go with the RV-7/A - I think it was a good choice. I built a RV-6A primarily with manual hand tools.

This is a big subject that I am not organized to address completely without omission so I am just offering my rambling memories that may include something useful. I started with a normal collection of hand tools that one acquires from a lifetime of maintaining one's car and home. I bought no "tool kits" but I did go to an introductory sheetmetal aircraft builder's class once offered by Van's (lasted about 3 days). That is without any doubt the reason I was able to build a high quality airplane. The only thing I needed the compressor for was the rivet gun (with a regulator installed in the input that I adjusted before every rivet driving task) and the die grinder. I have an air drill and used it occasionally but the electrical drill worked just fine. I never owned nor desired to use a pneumatic squeezer. If I had a choice between the rivet gun or squeezing to set rivets I manually squeezed them. If I had a choice between dimpling or countersinking I dimpled. I have a "C" frame and a plastic mallet that I used many times for dimpling large sheets like wing skins. I have dimple dies for 3/32" & 1/8" rivets and #8 flathead screws and rivet sets for 3/32" and 1/8" round head and flathead rivets. I bought several standard #30 and #40 drills and threw them out when they got dull. I bought other sizes and lengths as I needed them. I bought long drills (6" and 12") for special applications and two unibits for larger holes (I ground one down for a special needed tool). I have and used drill stops for most of my sheet metal work. I bought and used micro adjustable countersink tools for every counter sunk hole. I bought ~150 3/32", ~50 1/8", and a acquired few of the next couple of larger sized clecoes but no side clamp clecoes (I bought ~20 small C-clamps instead). I bought a rotary file for the die grinder as well as a small variety of grinding bits. I bought and used deburring hand tools for all holes and sheetmetal edges. For large power tools, I bought a drill press, compressor (portable but capable horizontal configuration), bench grinder and after I completed the airplane and started making molds for speed mods, a band saw. In the way of safety equipment I bought safety glasses, hearing protectors and some leather gloves. I only primed steel parts an a few random non-alclad aluminum parts. Started building in 1996 first flew in 2004.

WoodBransonrkt100050.jpg


Bob Axsom
 
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For my money, the DRDT2 will be a better investment.

You can make do with a hand squeezer, and a rivet gun.

You can also make do with a "C" frame that you hit with a mallet, so there is not really a single correct answer.

There are a lot of places where the pneumatic squeezer will not fit, once you start getting things together.

I was chatting with another fellow on here and decided to buy the front press of the DRDT-2 and make the C-Frame myself (a good hour of welding, cutting, and measuring).

I will probably hold off on the squeezer as long as possible, the main reason being I don't have the spare $800 for yokes and the squeezer, the other reason being, I'll find any way I can to do without spending "Wing money" on something I can do without (though I will probably break down and buy one eventually). :D

I imagine they're kind of like smartphones... you don't realize how nifty they are til you have one, and at this juncture I'm blissfully ignorant :D
 
Welcome to VAF and the neatest RV site there is! Congratulations on your start.

Since you don't live near a salt water environment, reconsider all that priming/cost/weight it will cause. I'm 100 miles from Savannah and nothing was primed on my -6A but the insides of the pushrods, because they're not Alclad like the rest of the airplane, and also the insides of the steel steps were primed. My -10's not internally primed either.

There are piles of Cessnas and Pipers at coastal airports, near salt water and they're not internally primed either. Many FBO's and private individuals offer Corrosion X treatment, where they mist a Mil-spec oily film into your fuselage, wings and tail to handle any corrosion issues.

Do a search on primers, get a beer or three, and read to your hearts content:)

Best,

Thanks for the input, sir!

The only thing that worries me is that I have a few years (decades) left in my career and might find myself coastal at some point. The way you've described it, I will probably just end up spraying ribs and spars and leave the skins alone. Cuts down on the surface area (weight) covered in primer and if the skins start showing corrosion I'll know that further investigation will be warranted.

At least it sounds like a good plan in my head...
 
My vote: Pneumatic Squeezer!

I highly advise the pneumatic squeezer. It has been incredible to use and (provided you use it properly) makes awesome rivets and dimples. The hand squeezer is feasible, but you will spend a lot more time and drill out a lot more "bad" rivets, in my opinion.

That being said, I could not be without my DRDT2 Dimpler too. It has made dimpling skins a pleasure. There is no concern about over dimpling, because the DRDT2 makes it impossible to do so. With the C-Frame, you will discover that people have issues with that, as well as making the occasional "figure eight" putting an extra hole in the skin. If money is the issue, look for a used DRDT2 rather than a used pneumatic squeezer. I think if you look at Isham's tool setups, you'll find that he offers a good price on a kit that includes both the squeezer and the DRDT2!

With regard to priming, I chose not to prime for reasons similar to Pierre's suggestions. You can look at my website under primer/paint. You will find, if you research like I did, that the Self Etching primers are not a moisture barrier, therefore, IMHO they are extra cost, weight, and most importantly, time. In the end, make the decisions that allow you to sleep at night. If that means spraying SE primer, then so be it. Enjoy your build!
 
You will be spending tens of thousands of dollars on this airplane build. You will spend around 2,000 hours building this airplane. You will be dimpling and riveting and thus using these two tools 25,000 to 30,000 times perhaps. These tools make the build so much easier, they same time and they save energy and wear and tear on the old body. And when you are done with them, you can sell them for pretty close to what you paid for them, so your final cost might only be a couple hundred.

Consider, too, that the wife will be far more likely to help you out if you have a tool that is easy to use. I never had much of a problem getting my ex to help me dimple with the R2D2. If I had used a C-Frame, I doubt she should have been so willing to help. And forget about her ever using a hand squeezer! So, factor in the additional help you are more likely to receive.

Really, you will not regret the purchase. I am about the biggest cheapskate there is, and consider the purchase of those two tools the best tool investment I made. Much better than a pneumatic drill.

You will NOT regret the purchase.
 
A lot of good comments.

I have used a C frame dimpler just to save money and a previous RV builder let me use his pneumatic squeezer. you have to have both since you can not do the skins with a squeezer.
Ask around... I did have to send the squeezer in to Bob Avery at Avery tools to get it rebuilt which I gladly paid the bill. Bob did an excellent job and it looked brand new when he returned it.

Welcome.
Smilin' Jack
N507H (reserved)
Empenage done
Wings 70 percent.
Flaps done
starting to get a grin. :) :) :) seeing all these finished sections :)
 
I'm on the pay-as-I-go plan, so getting started might take a while. Will have to decide between the DRDT-2 and a pneumatic squeezer in the coming weeks. I do have a hand dimpler (rivet-gun style), but I have heard they are fairly inconsistent. Which is more important at this point?

There's a LOT of difference between building a slow build and a quick build kit (about 18,000 rivet operations difference). If you are building a slow build I would highly recommend the pneumatic squeezer. In either case I would recommend the C-frame dimpler over the DRDT-2. It costs less and it produces more crisp, well defined dimples due the dynamic impact involved ...meaning that your rivet heads will sit lower.

Bear in mind that used pneumatic squeezers are in hot demand on VansAirforce so you can probably get a large proportion of your money back when you have finished with it.
 
If the choice was between a normal hand squeezer and pneumatic, I'd go pneumatic. If the choice is between a Cleaveland Main Squeeze and a pneumatic, much different story. I've set every rivet I have to set on a standard (slow-build) kit and have never had a single regret about not spending the money on a pneumatic. The Main Squeeze is so good that Mike from Cleaveland Tools is even buying them back when builders are done! Also, once you get to the airport you may not have a compressor. Hand squeezer will be needed probably anyway.

DRDT-2, on the other hand, really improves the enjoyment of the build b/c it is so much quieter. I can't imagine making the noise required to dimple all those holes. My family would not have appreciated it either! Crisper dimples with the C-frame? Perhaps, but I couldn't tell the difference the few times I used a c-frame.

So, back to your original question. DRDT-2 and a Cleaveland Main Squeeze.
 
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I agree about the squeezer. I got mine on ebay and saved a boatload. One thing I can't understand, is that nobody seems to rave about the value of a pneumatic cleco installer! Mine is the best $85 I ever spent and it is my favorite tool. Especially on those parts when you need to search for the hole alignment.
 
Crisper dimples with the C-frame? Perhaps, but I couldn't tell the difference the few times I used a c-frame.

I've used both and there is a definite difference. It is logical than one cannot expect to get the same dimple definition from a squeeze operation as one gets from an impact operation. The dynamic force produces a better result than the static force. Even the pneumatic squeezer will not produce the dimple definition of a C-frame. With a squeezed operation you get slightly rounded shoulders....with an impact operation you get very defined shoulders. In the end that results in rivets that sit lower in the dimples (ie. you cannot feel ANY rivet head edges as you run your hand over the surface). Looks better, feels better, and should fly faster.
 
Where in Michigan are you? I'm in the Grand Rapids area with a 7A that's about 90% done and hope to fly next spring. I know how overwhelming the beginning stage of the project can be so feel free to lean on your local builders for advice. Its free!
 
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