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Ask a controller... (in memory of Tony Kelly - tkatc)

Should Jeff have asked the controllor to mark the tape?

Neat to be here ... you guys have a really neat group. I've wasted WAY to much time digging through past articles since finding this group.

The antenna is in the main wing tip. I was ~4000 AGL and 15 miles when I made 1st call and within ~8 miles when I started descending to stay clear.

I'm not sure if it was my proximity (I was <5 miles) or my turn to the North that allowed them to hear me. What I really don't get is why no-one but FWA and MFD have a fairly regular hard time hearing me.

What does "marking the tape" mean and where would I go / what would I do after asking them?

Thanks,
Jeff
 
Brantel....I called flight service today to get a more in depth answer...they didn't really know anything. If you file VFR then the flight plan will be tracked by flight service but it will not be entered into the ATC computer. The only way to get a VFR plan into the computer is if you get some controller to type one in, not great odds there, or file IFR and then change it to VFR after it is in the ATC computer. If you don't want to recieve the IFR clearance...just call clearance delivery, preferably while you are on the ground, and ask them if they have your IFR on file....if they reply in the affirmative, simply ask them to change it to VFR so you can request flight following along the same route.

IF you go the IFR route and cancel in the air....one of two things will happen. The controller may remove your flight plan ENTIRELY from the system or they may amend your flight plan to VFR which will afford you flight following.

My break is over....more answers later.
 
Gil....the controller doesn't care how complex your flight plan is...vfr nor ifr...but he does not want to have to type any of that information into a computer. Brantel is trying to get his VFR plan into the ATC computer so he will be afforded flight following for his entire trip. He will be treated much like an IFR aircraft in that he will get handoffs from one controller to the next AUTOMATICALLY (for ease in explaination).

IFLY....I think you handled it fairly well. I can't answer if the controller heard you or not. I do know that bravo controllers will sometimes ignore VFR aircraft because he is busy with IFRs....and he can do this because you are not permitted to enter without his permission. So in the case of him ignoring you....I think it might be helpful to explain on initial attempt to contact him, that you are in fact landing at his airport and he will have to deal with you sooner or later.
If it truly is a radio problem of some sort then sometimes higher altitudes help. I think you did the right thing by remaining outside and calling several times. The only suggestion I have on that is don't go circling in an area that conflicts with other traffic, like the final or other arrival or departure fix.
Finally, I think sometimes the PILOT can hear things perfect but the controller has to listen to open cockpits, loud engine noise in the backround, etc. Many times I blame things on headsets.

"Marking" the tape is sort of an old school phrase. All ATC frequencies are recorded so that data could be used to troubleshoot issues in the future. We used to use actual magnetic tapes and if we needed to find a particular piece of audio recording we would stick a piece of paper in the completed reel to "mark" the general area of audio we were looking for. Most of the country, if not all, has gone digital though and tapes are no longer used but the phrase remains.

However, I don't ever suggest you request a controller to "mark" the tape....chances are you might have done something wrong and the tapes will incriminate you. Once you take things to that level...there is no turning back. Violations WILL occur to any guilty party. If you DO want to discuss a particular incident, just note the time and make a call to the approach control. They will research any issue you may have and clear things up. If it is discovered that the controller made a mistake there is a pretty good chance he will recieve additional training to correct further issue. If it is discovered that the pilot was in error....the approach control may be required to report the incident at that time and you may get a call from FSDO.
 
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Actually, what...

Gil....the controller doesn't care how complex your flight plan is...vfr nor ifr...but he does not want to have to type any of that information into a computer. Brantel is trying to get his VFR plan into the ATC computer so he will be afforded flight following for his entire trip. .......

...I was trying to say (not very well...:)...) was -

"Does the controller even care about your VFR planned track, complex or not?"

I guess he wants to know your destination so he knows when you are done, but does he really care how you got there if it was legal VFR?
 
VFR flight following track

...I was trying to say (not very well...:)...) was -

"Does the controller even care about your VFR planned track, complex or not?"

I guess he wants to know your destination so he knows when you are done, but does he really care how you got there if it was legal VFR?

Gil,
I've received vectors while on flight following that I haven't requested and I know my experience isn't unique. I'm not talking about avoidance maneuvers to a specific aircraft, but what has been explained to me as vectors out of the general approach or departure traffic flow. I've taken that to mean, yes, controllers care about where we are, probably not most the time, but sometimes.

best
 
Gil...overall you are right...if you are in a legal VFR area then we don't care. We do sometimes give vectors to keep you out of undesireable areas as Nomocon stated. We generally try not to vector a VFR off his course but sometimes it is just a more effecient way of servicing ALL of our customers.
 
I'll ask it anyways...

TK...I'm a newly minted IR pilot, who understands just enough to get where I'm going safely. However, every time I file an IFR flight plan, I'm nervous I'm gonna get thrown something I've never seen/heard before. My question is this: When I file a route, what are the chances of getting my requested route? I've only filed to very easy destinations so far, and on one of those trips the controller told me it would be to difficult to get me into Kxxx (for a touch and go) as there are three different freq's I have to switch to depending on which direction I'd come in from. This was after I was "cleared as filed" on the phone w/clearance delivery. It wasn't that big of a deal, but I like to have as much planned out as possible.
I'm considering an IFR trip to the SF Bay area, and I just don't want to get myself in over my head w/any "surprise" deviations.
 
Chris....I think DUATS and similar programs have the standard routes listed for various airports. If your destination is not listed, then use the route to the closest larger airport and substitute your airport for the larger one. This will give you a very good idea about what you can expect.

I am not exactly sure what you meant when you said the controller couldn't get you into Kxxx for a touch and go. But it sounds as though you filed a route which included a touch and go to an airport along the way. That is similar to a "round robin" which starts and ends at the same airport with various points/airports along the way. Controllers typically HATE that type of clearance and would prefer you file a flight plan for each individual leg. IE. file a plan from A to B, then another for B to C, and then another from C to D. Hope this is understandable.
 
standard routes listed for various airports. If your destination is not listed, then use the route to the closest larger airport and substitute your airport for the larger one. This will give you a very good idea about what you can expect.

Just found this site on FAA.gov http://www.fly.faa.gov/rmt/nfdc_preferred_routes_database.jsp

It's actually pretty user friendly and quick to query the database. One way to pull a fair amount of info without 'hunting and pecking' for specific airports is to search by ARTCC. Here are the ARTCC codes, just use the last 3 on the web site though.

KZAB Albuquerque,NM
PAZA Anchorage,AK.
KZTL Atlanta,GA
KZBW Boston,MA
KZAU Chicago,IL
KZOB Cleveland,OH
KZDV Denver,CO
KZFW Fort Worth,TX
PGZU Guam CERAP
PHZH Honolulu,HI
KZHU Houston,TX
KZID Indianapolis,IN
KZJX Jacksonville,FL
KZKC Kansas City,KS
KZLA Los Angeles,CA
KZME Memphis,TN
KZMA Miami,FL
KZMP Minneapolis,MN
KZNY New York,NY
KZOA Oakland,CA
KZAK Oakland OCA/FIR
KZLC Salt Lake City,UT
TJZS San Juan,PR
KZSE Seattle,WA
KZDC Washington,DC

Also, here's a picture of the center's airspace. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Tfrmap.jpeg

Tfrmap.jpeg


Hope this helps.

-Jim
 
TK: What you said makes a lot of sense. My CFII typically had multiple touch and go's on one flight plan, but we were in the middle of America with little traffic to deal with. Northern California is a different story.
The airport I had grief over was columbia, ca...O22... and you're right, I was en route to another airport as well (Fresno). I can understand atc not wanting to bother with it now, and will just file separate flight plans in the future. Thanks for the info...

I'm looking at a flight to monterey this week. It's basically the recommended duats route: (just west of sacramento to SFO, then south to monterey.)

KEDU EMBAR REBAS SFO OSI SANTY SNS KMRY

I'd like to give the family something interesting to look at down the coast, hence the coastal route. Any thoughts?
 
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Chris....if DUATS has a recommended route, you can bet that the controller won't modify it to allow you to sight see. My thoughts are...if you can see anything...go VFR on that same plan. If you read posts from last week you will see that if you file IFR, get airborne, cancel and go VFR, then you will have a high likelyhood of remaining in the ATC computer and then you would get following the entire way with handoffs. If the weather doesn't cooperate you could always request to go back to IFR.

As I mentioned earlier...the word "recommended" used by DUATS is only to protect themselves from any fallout in case ATC would clear you differently...but realistically you will get that clearance 99.9% of the time. The controller will not clear you differently because you ask or want to sight-see. These routes are established to seperate airplanes. If you want to deviate from the route you COULD ask but I doubt they would allow it. Reason being is that they are responsible for keeping you away from other aircraft...when you cancel and go VFR, you remove a lot of the controller's responsibilty and they will be more willing to "work" with you.
 
Oh...one more thing....I am unsure of the rules by which you are governed as an IFR pilot...but if you can....lose the K in front of the airport identifier. I hate them. :) On the same note...nothing bugs me more than a VFR pilot telling me his destination as "Kilo Alpha Bravo Charlie"....it's such a waste of valuable frequency time.
 
what if the field VOR is not really near the field........example of that was recently tried to file from a VOR fix, duat converted it to the k identifier...that was annoying to get clearance on
 
BK...you got me there. I suspect all software will try to convert to a "K". Even in ADDS you have to add the K to get what you want. I just hate the extra K if it is not needed. If I amend a flight plan it is one more letter I have to type. Many times I will forget to include it and the computer will rudely remind me something is not quite right. Part of the reason I am not very fond of the "K". The only time I feel it is necessary is when going from 1 country to another....otherwise, get rid of it.

I suppose this is a "personal" issue that I will have to overcome. :)
 
BK...you got me there. I suspect all software will try to convert to a "K". Even in ADDS you have to add the K to get what you want. I just hate the extra K if it is not needed. If I amend a flight plan it is one more letter I have to type. Many times I will forget to include it and the computer will rudely remind me something is not quite right. Part of the reason I am not very fond of the "K". The only time I feel it is necessary is when going from 1 country to another....otherwise, get rid of it.

I suppose this is a "personal" issue that I will have to overcome. :)

How about if the same identifier is used for a VOR and an airport like "SAC". Wouldn't that create confusion if "K" is omitted?

In the few times I have flown to Monterey from PVF, I have never got the clearance as filed :(
 
Bavafa....I don't think omitting it would cause confusion....you're not landing on the VOR are you?

And if you remember what they gave you from point A to point B in the past...it probably won't change much the next time...if at all. If you file the route you were given in the past...the next clearance should be as filed. :)
 
Bavafa: I'm flying to monterey on Thursday for the first time...any pointers? should be an easy flight from Davis (EDU...notice I left off the K!! haha:) ) going over SFO then south, victor airways the entire way. should be a great flight.
 
Chris,

My pointer for Monterey: if you have an alternate airport, you can save the landing fee. I was going into Watsonville a few weeks ago and it was clouded in so I landed at Monterey to wait it out for a half hour or so and had to really haggle with the snooty FBO there (can't remember which one, but obviously for the "beautiful people" with way lots more $$ than me and on the S side of the runways) to temporarily park on the ramp for a half hour without paying the $20 fee. I certainly will look for alternatives next time.

greg
 
That's so ridiculous...I found the same thing in Santa Barbara. Is there somewhere I can find out this info before leaving on a cross country? Or is it a matter of just calling each fbo and seeing what they say? I was so disgusted with the attitude at SBA FBO (I forget the name but it wasn't atlantic) I turned around and left. This was after the counter lady "did me such a huge favor" by waiving the $30 or so fee. Give me a break. I couldn't believe there wasn't ANYWHERE on the field where I could stop and file a new flight plan.


Chris,

My pointer for Monterey: if you have an alternate airport, you can save the landing fee. I was going into Watsonville a few weeks ago and it was clouded in so I landed at Monterey to wait it out for a half hour or so and had to really haggle with the snooty FBO there (can't remember which one, but obviously for the "beautiful people" with way lots more $$ than me and on the S side of the runways) to temporarily park on the ramp for a half hour without paying the $20 fee. I certainly will look for alternatives next time.

greg
 
Airnav

A check on Airnav.com and a read of the comments is usually worthwhile before going to any airport.

In the case of Santa Barbara, a lot of the comments mention price...:)

http://www.airnav.com/airport/sba


That's so ridiculous...I found the same thing in Santa Barbara. Is there somewhere I can find out this info before leaving on a cross country? Or is it a matter of just calling each fbo and seeing what they say? I was so disgusted with the attitude at SBA FBO (I forget the name but it wasn't atlantic) I turned around and left. This was after the counter lady "did me such a huge favor" by waiving the $30 or so fee. Give me a break. I couldn't believe there wasn't ANYWHERE on the field where I could stop and file a new flight plan.
 
Bavafa: I'm flying to monterey on Thursday for the first time...any pointers? should be an easy flight from Davis (EDU...notice I left off the K!! haha:) ) going over SFO then south, victor airways the entire way. should be a great flight.

Chris,
As mentioned the few times that I have flown to Monterey, I never got cleared as filed but it is not major different either. I am in Placerville and usually get routed to an intersection near Manteca or to SAC and then Manteca or a way point near there and then V111 to SNS VOR.
If I was going to fly to Monterey, I would not go over SFO and then south as you will be hitting the busy SFO airspace, rather I would be going SAC, V585, Patty, V111, SNS, MRY

As the landing fee, try Monterey Bay Aviation which is on the North side of the airport. There is no landing fee and if you stay a full day, the ramp charge is only $10 and if you buy gas they wave the ramp fee. They are very friendly and helpful and car rental is only $25 but there center is not as glamorous as Monterey Jet center.

We maybe flying on there on Thursday as well.

Either way, have a fun and safe flight
 
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TK: I'm full of questions, but don't want to make a nusiance of myself. I've mentioned before that I just got my IR...been about 3 months now and have flown "in the system" about 4 times. All I can say is that I love it! Granted, they've all be CAVU days here in NORCAL, but it's probably better that way while I "get my feet wet" so to speak as SPIFR.
I've always filed and flown victor airways, even though I have a Garmin 430W on board and could go direct. My question is this: If I am on a direct flight plan to a busy airport/area, how the heck does the controller figure separation? Radar only? I was told by my CFII that when I'm on a victor airway on my assigned route, that I "own" that stretch of road and nobody else can be on it (at same altitude.) It just blows my mind that all these different flights going "direct" don't meet somewhere in the middle.
 
rite or left??

Tony:

I was approaching KGYR from the SW. GYR was using RWY 21. I reported 10 miles south. TWR told me to fly rite pattern to 21.

I replied, "TWR, rite pattern means I have to cross mid field or cross departing aircraft. Pls confirm, request left pattern 21".

To which he replied: "OK, I thought you were coming from a different direction".

How else could I tactfully disagreed with his instruction?

Subsequent to that trip, I now report "10 miles SW over town xyz", request left pattern 21" so there is never a misunderstanding.

Thanks for answering these questions.
 
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OK, here's one about clearance limits.

Suppose you issue me "Cleared direct FIX", where FIX is not part of my original clearance, and with no further instructions.

My understanding is that now FIX is my clearance limit. And the question is, what are you expecting me to do at FIX, absent further communication with ATC? Hold, or try to rejoin my previous clearance in some reasonable way?

This came up years ago when I was flying a Mooney into LAX. LAX was landing to the east, and I was coming from the south, so expecting ILS 7R. About 20 miles out, approach says "LAX is turning the boat around", going to be landing to the west now. OK, I get out the ILS 25L plate as I'm getting vectored out over the ocean while they sort things out. A few minutes later I hear "Mooney 201NV, cleared direct Seal Beach", the SLI vortac, about 15 miles southeast of LAX.

Great! Except now as I'm approaching SLI, I'm realizing: SLI was not part of my original clearance, which was given based on when LAX was landing the other way. So, technically, SLI is now my clearance limit. Am I really supposed to hold there, waiting further clearance? If I proceed past SLI, am I busting my clearance? Asking approach for clarification would be good, but he's dealing with a sky full of other airplanes that are also getting their clearances changed and there's no way to get a word in.

Thinking about it for another minute, I decide that if approach wanted me to hold at SLI they would have said so, SLI is a published initial approach fix for LAX ILS 25L so that's probably the flow they are feeding me into, best thing to do is just depart SLI on the 335 radial to join the approach as charted.

And sure enough a couple minutes after SLI, approach gives me "201NV, contact tower when established on the localizer, cleared ILS 25L approach", almost as if I knew what I was doing the whole time :cool:.

Anyway, I think back on this as a situation where trying to fit into an expected flow of traffic worked out better than getting tied up in a technical interpretation of a rule. If you're really bored you could maybe comment on the scope and limts of that as a general approach to flying IFR :).

--Paul
 
Altitude verification question

I have a new RV-6A with 60 hours on it and I am wondering the correct procedure to contact ATC only for the reason to check what my altitude is reporting? The system has been tested while setting static on the ground, but with the nature of a experimental aircraft I question if the static source once flying is correct. I was flying at the same altitude as a friend in his RV-10 today and he said that my altitude compared to his altimeter and "TCAS" was 300 ft higher than what I was showing on my altimeter.

Thanks,
Curtis
 
Chris...if you become a nuisance I can always ignore you in typical "controller" fashion, so no worries there. I think you are going about dabbling in the IFR arena the right way...a little at a time and not biting off more than you can chew. I wish you were closer so I could bring you in and show you exactly the kind of things controllers do. It sounds like that would be VERY beneficial to you. Perhaps you could call your local approach control and request a tour.

As far as people going direct in busier areas of the country it is much more difficult but can be done on a limited basis. Think of it as driving through the city...to get from A to B you must go down main st to 13th avenue then turn left on Roosevelt, etc etc. Direct is not an option because you would be running into everything. These routes are standard and the controllers get used to the "flow" of traffic and can seperate based on that flow using RADAR. If they lose RADAR they have non-radar techniques but they are rarely used anymore because the system has a lot of redundancy built in and losing RADAR is very rare. If everybody was issued direct destination it would become much more chaotic and down right impossible in some locations.

What your CFII is referring to are non-radar rules we use in case of a radar outage. (again extremely uncommon) Without radar we cannot see you and we seperate you blindly using a map and the route you are assigned. While on your victor airway in a non-radar environment we would keep all aircraft a minimum of 4 miles away from your airway on either side. Ensuring adequate spacing even if you stray just a bit. All this would be much easier explain in person behind a radar scope so I hope you understand what i am trying to say at least vaguely.

MrNomad....I am assuming you called the tower and they did not give you a transponder code. This leads me to believe they are strictly a VFR tower without RADAR capability. Obviously without RADAR the controller misinterpretted your location and gave erroneous instructions. Good job verifying the instructions. If you ever get instructions that sound fishy, by all means verify those instructions. YOU as a pilot are part of the reason we have such a safe system. You are part of the safe redundancy built in. It sounds like you have already figured out a better way to announce your position and avoid confusion.

Garage Guy....you also sound like you got this one figured out on your own. During times when busy airports switch runways it can get pretty chaotic. The controller sent you direct SLI just to get things moving in the right direction. I would take the instruction and assume there would be further instruction before reaching SLI. I would wait til just before SLI before inquiring about further instruction if you had not recieved any before that point. Chances are good that you would be given further instructions. Think of it as if the controller gave you a vector....the vector was never part of your original clearance either, yet pilots take vectors all the time assuming there will be further instruction. If the vector becomes excessively long, of course, inquire about it. If you can't seem to raise them on the radio...you would then squawk 7600 and proceed in on the advertised approach. They will either find a way to communicate with you or move all the traffic out of your way for your approach. Make sense?
 
Curtis....I suggest you fly that RV up to NJ and let me personally check the transponder. I will do this free of charge but I will have to keep the airplane for a good 6-8 months. I guarantee the transponder to be perfect when you come back to pick it up!!!

Seriously though, something like "Approach, Exp123 is 10 miles north of ABC VOR, request transponder check" they will give you a code and tell you everything they see as long as they have time.
 
A trip to the Northeast sounds good, however I don't think I can part with my mistress for any length of time :)

Thank you for your help with my question.
 
If you can't seem to raise them on the radio...you would then squawk 7600 and proceed in on the advertised approach.

I have to admit I've never considered squawking 7600 just because the frequency is too crowded to get a word in. In your experience do you find it used for that purpose?

In the event, I made some assumptions about what ATC probably intended and everything turned out fine. If I'd made other assumptions it probably would have turned out fine too, since I was on radar and probably would have got corrected pretty fast. But I was running on "probably"'s either way and I agree it would have been better to confirm the clearance.

--Paul
 
NO NO NO...I don't mean that you should squawk 7600 just because the frequency is congested. LOL Neat idea though...

I meant that a clearance allows you to proceed IFR in the event you lose radio contact. So if the controller gave you a vector, then, you suddenly lose your radio, you could always squawk 7600 and proceed inbound on the approach.
 
NO NO NO...I don't mean that you should squawk 7600 just because the frequency is congested. LOL Neat idea though...

OK here's another question... What happens in your cab when a target squawks 7600? How is it different from 7700? Do sirens go off? Do the lights dim and the background music gets ominous :)?

--Paul
 
:) We do get an audible warning as well as a flashing cue. Facilities will differ with different equipment but it is basically the same nationwide. We KNOW when somebody squawks 7700, 7600, or 7500
 
VOR approach

Scenario:
I'm flying into Santa Barbara Airport on the VOR approach. Sky is CAVU, and I'm cleared for the approach. Switch to tower, tell them where I am at and I get a "cleared to land." Now, the VOR radial is not directly in line with the runway so I move off the radial and get ready for landing. (This is about a 3-5 mile final.) Tower comes on and says "xxx, you're about 1 mile right of course, confirming you have the runway in sight?" I say "yes" and land uneventfully. My question is: should I have told the tower that I have "airport in sight?" I figured they would know that, but I guess not. If I DONT have to tell them I have the airport in sight, at what point is it permissible to leave the final approach segment and get set up for landing?
 
When the tower sees you veer off course they are obligated to make sure they tell you, in case you have some sort of malfunction, or verify you're flying via visual means.

Let's say is if extreme IFR and you veer off the ILS or VOR...you subsequently hit a water tower or antenna, and the controller never mentioned you were off course....big liability for the FAA not to mention the controller will have to live with your probable death for the rest of his life.

As to your question....it has been my experience for aircraft on an offset VOR will fly the approach all the way to decision height (that will typically place the aircraft about 1/2 mile final, where he should see the runway or go around) and then side step over to align with the runway. I believe this is the correct way to do it or expect to be questioned
 
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...at what point is it permissible to leave the final approach segment and get set up for landing?

My two cents: strickly comply with route and altitude depictions for the segment of the approach you are on. Safe visual maneuvering may be accomplished in the vicinity of the airport at or above the circling MDA when the aircraft is within the specific circling radii (1.3 nm for category A or up to 4.5 nm for category E). Then use the visual approach lighting (VASI, PAPI, etc) for the descent from circling MDA to the runway.

-Jim
 
TK: I try and minimize surprises when flying IFR...surprises lead to stress, stress leads to poor decisions, and we all know where poor decisions lead to. If I'm flying out of an airport with multiple DP's, do controllers try and accomodate a pilots request for a particular DP, or is it purely a game of chance on what DP you might be assigned?
Here's why I ask: I want to fly out of an unfamiliar airport with mountainous terrain, and one DP looks significantly more simple than the others. (No DME arcs, no NDB necessary, etc...) I understand it's all about traffic flow and the wx dictates a lot of what goes on, but was just curious if those requests are even really considered or not. Thanks!
 
Acknowledge squawk code?

Supposing that the controller gives me a squawk code while I am airborne. Should I acknowledge the squawk code over the radio or just set the transponder? I have done it both ways with no complaints from the controller. If I am the only one in his airspace, then there can be no confusion as to who is squawking what. But if the frequency is congested, the fewer words the better. If I do not acknowledge the squawk code and inadvertently transpose a couple of digits, then that might cause problems. Anyway, What does the controller prefer?
Thanks, Joe
 
I always want to hear a readback. Plus, like you mentioned...if you read back the wrong code I can correct it.
 
Is there any regulation requiring a pilot to listen to the ATIS before contacting the tower? I know it is encouraged, but sometimes cumbersome for single radio airplanes.

thanks
Bruce Green

If youre IFR, get the ATIS before you contact approach.

If youre VFR going into a controlled field without the ATIS, I guess I just dont understand your thought process on that one...

If youre single radio, the best time to get ATIS is when "center" hands you off to "approach", that goes for VFR/IFR (assuming youre VFR flight following). Just flip to the ATIS freq and listen to it for 30-40 seconds before you check in with APP.
 
I have an ATC question -

Sometimes while IFR Enroute I am cleared to a distant point - say Intersection TIRON 80nm ahead.

Then get cleared to cross TIRON at 9000.

Thats the same as "Pilots Discretion to cross Tiron at 9000"?
Or is that descend now to cross at 9000.

If it is PD I assume I still need to notify I am vacating XXX altitude for 9000 at Tiron?

Tj
 
I have an ATC question -

Sometimes while IFR Enroute I am cleared to a distant point - say Intersection TIRON 80nm ahead.

Then get cleared to cross TIRON at 9000.

Thats the same as "Pilots Discretion to cross Tiron at 9000"?
Or is that descend now to cross at 9000.

If it is PD I assume I still need to notify I am vacating XXX altitude for 9000 at Tiron?

Tj

It depends on the phraseolgy used by the controller. The semantics are important.
 
Yup...

I have an ATC question -
Sometimes while IFR Enroute I am cleared to a distant point - say Intersection TIRON 80nm ahead.
Then get cleared to cross TIRON at 9000.
Thats the same as "Pilots Discretion to cross Tiron at 9000"?
Or is that descend now to cross at 9000.
If it is PD I assume I still need to notify I am vacating XXX altitude for 9000 at Tiron?
Tj
With no other restriction, descend at your discretion, but you should always notify ATC when leaving an assigned altitude.
 
crossing restriction

A crossing restriction is a pd descent...we don't care when you start down just as long as you make your crossing restriction. If we needed to duck you under some traffic then you might here something like " descend now through 120 cross (intersection) at (specified altitude)". Hope that helps. take care, carl
 
TK, Good Idea. There are a couple of controllers on here. I work center at ZKC, and I know there are at least 3 others from work on here. I don't know if it would warrant it's own sub forum or not, but pehaps a sticky on here somewhere so people can ask us questions???
 
So I was wondering...what does it mean when a controller gives you the altimeter at some arbitrary time, other than when checking in with a new sector, which is the norm? Or let's say it happens shortly after you just realized you are a 'bit' high/low. My guess it's a polite, non-incriminating way to say, 'get back on altitude'. True? TIA, -Jim
 
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