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A&P Certificate

DwightFrye

Active Member
I know this is an old discussion .. but I'm having trouble finding what I need with search, so am just asking. My apologies if this provokes an unwelcome rehash of the topic.

As background, I have built an RV-7 which flew in 2013 and now has about 500 hours on it. I've also done a lot of miscellaneous work on certificated aircraft, with the oversight of A&Ps of course. I've build my engine down at Superior (back when they were doing that), have assembled my own FI system thanks to the generosity of Don Rivera (don't ask him to do it, though, because while it went well I bet he never wants to do that again!). I participated in the restoration of a 1967 Citabria 7ECA. I've been called upon by the A&P/IA at the flying club where I'm a member to come do work on club aircraft, in one case because he said my sheet metal skills were better than his. And this is just a sample of my various experiences.

I've had multiple A&Ps say that I really should apply for my A&P, and recently got talked into giving it a try. One FSDO wouldn't even discuss it. An inspector at another FSDO seemed game, but in the end wanted essentially the same documentation of work done on certificated aircraft that wold normally be provided, and time/experience gained with experimental aircraft (essentially) didn't count.

I had been asked to write up all my experience as best I could. I did so, and even being brief it came to about 10 typewritten pages. I also had letters of recommendation from two different A&Ps, and could have gotten more but thought more would be overkill.

I've pointed to the section in the FAA Handbook 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 5, Section 2, item B which reads :

B. With exception to the JSAMTCC A&P certification program experience gained from the military, work as an airframe or powerplant mechanic or work on an experimental amateur-built aircraft will be evaluated on its own merits to determine whether it fulfills the experience requirements. ...............

The emphasis in that section is mine, of course. However, no joy.

So, with all that as background, my question is .... has anyone succeeded in having their experimental aircraft work recognized as the basis for getting an 8610-2 form signed off? If so, how? And, do you have a FSDO and MX inspector who accepts experimental experience as a basis for the sign-off. Thanks, in advance, for any insights you can share.
 
Well, I got it done, but it was not a straight line and it took many years (that's after accumulating the experience).

My impression is that most FSDO inspectors don't want to deal with the experience route - they don't want to sign off on anyone they don't know. Much easier to point you to a school. (Frankly, I might be of the same opinion myself.) They don't want to deal with experimental in general and there's nothing that compels them to sign off.

And, so, there is a wide array of experiences - ranging from "NO" to "if it's not on a W2 it can't be verified" and every so often when they know you at the FSDO the answer is "YES".

In my case, the referrals I could provide are all stale now - retired and moved, so I can't be of much help there.

The experimental work can be counted, but it's kind of up to the examiner as to what he counts and dismisses. (Case in point - I went to the Lycoming engine school and the first inspector I talked to said the school time did not count for anything - didn't need to, it just reflected an attitude. His other great quote was that I was going to have to accept the fact I would never be an A&P. The inspector who ultimately signed off was very impressed about the school time - I don't know that he counted it, but it created a very favorable impression.)

There's just no shortcut to searching for an inspector who understands experimental. To do that, I'd look around for someone who had a positive experience with an airworthiness inspection from a FSDO. See if there isn't a concentration or name that keeps surfacing. Alternatively, a FSDO inspector who flies an experimental aircraft. Then, some contact, etc. (You won't be able to do the signoff "over the phone + mail" - you'll have to physically go to that FSDO after making an appointment.)

Another thing to consider is to separate the airframe and powerplant. You might find that as an RV builder that the FSDO inspector is much more receptive to the airframe only. So, taking it in two bites isn't going to warm the heart - it may the the necessary path.

It's very frustrating, but worth it if you keep at it.

Best of luck,

Dan
 
I've pointed to the section in the FAA Handbook 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 5, Section 2, item B which reads :

B. With exception to the JSAMTCC A&P certification program experience gained from the military, work as an airframe or powerplant mechanic or work on an experimental amateur-built aircraft will be evaluated on its own merits to determine whether it fulfills the experience requirements. ...............

Unfortunately, 8900.1 has been amended since the version that you quoted, with the addition of a note that reads:

NOTE: Manufacturing of any type of aircraft, including amateur-built experimental, does not count towards practical experience. However, practical experience gained on amateur-built aircraft after the aircraft has received an Airworthiness Certificate may count.​

{ This is in 8900.1, Vol 5, Ch 5, Sec 2, Par 5-1134 "Eligible to Test" }

This change came in after I got my A&P a few years ago - it seems that someone in the FAA decided that they really didn't want E-AB building time to count towards the certificate, and added that paragraph in specifically. So any Inspector who is doing it "by the book" now can't let you use all that construction time.

The latest version of 8900.1 is available online.
 
Unfortunately, 8900.1 has been amended since the version that you quoted, ....

Thank you for pointing that out. I got my information from an EAA article, and then googled for the document and found it on the FAA website. I didn't realize it had been updated.

I think, unless I just find the right inspector, I'm out of luck. This isn't crucial to any career plans, but would have been personally useful. It is much like pushing a rope.

Maybe someone will pop up and say "Call Bob at the XYZ FSDO, he understands!" and I'll give 'ole Bob a call. But I'm not holding my breath. Posting here with the extremely knowledgeable community we have was a bit of a last ditch "hail Mary" sort of attempt.

Thanks everyone! And .... if you do know someone at some FSDO somewhere who would entertain the possibility of signing off an 8610-2 for me, do clue me in, please. :)
 
I got my A&P in August after getting the testing approval based on experience in January. I had a recommendation letter from my IA that's worked with me for 15 years and a list of specific work done over 40+ years of aircraft ownership, including my 2 RV's built. In our discussion he said building the RV's couldn't be counted but I had plenty of experience otherwise. He did note that maintenance of an RV after certification WOULD count. It IS subjective. When my IA went for his A&P approval, also based on experience, he got denied. He asked them for a letter listing his deficiencies. To keep from writing a formal letter the inspector just approved him.

Another thought is to talk with a DME (Designated Mechanic Examiner.) They are listed on the FAA web site. That's who you'll need to see eventually for the Oral and Practical tests. Mine was real easy to deal with and probably has insight on which FSDO inspectors to use and might offer an opinion on your experience.
 
The faa is getting very strict on issuing the authorizations based on experience. They want to see logged time sheets with supervising a&ps signatures to prove the amount of time and subjects covered. It’s not like it was when I got mine 20 years ago. I brought a recommendation letter from my IA and the inspector, who was friends with my IA, said if he signed it your good to go, and gave me the authorizations.

Bob burns
Rv4 n82rb
 
I'm also trying to do this. I scratch built a replica PA-18 from factory Piper blue prints over 15 years (over 5000 hours), overhauled the engine myself, installed the avionics, swung wrenches at a repair station and have a couple letters of recommendation.

I'm lucky enough to live near a FSDO and had my AW cert on the cub issued by an FAA airworthiness inspector who also issued my repairman cert at the same time. He seemed to like my work. I submitted my application to him and he is waiting for the "guidance" to proceed.

Fingers crossed this will be enough.

It's interesting to me that the whole industry (including the FAA) is screaming about a looming shortage of mechanics but is making it so difficult to become one. It's not like they are issuing the certificates based on experience only. You still have to take the tests, then pass the oral and practical exams.

Good luck!!
 
Why is there a Mechanic Shortage?

Mike Bush mentioned in a webinar once upon a time the insanity of expecting all licensed aircraft mechanics to spend thousands of hours over multiple years to learn all things for all aircraft some of which they may never use or desire to know. Example is meeting certification standards for Pressure carbs for round engines and fuel control units for turbine engines, when we work single engine Cessnas.

A better way was to break down the areas that Aircraft Mechanics might desire to gain certification for into a number of specialty areas. Then let an organization certify applicants in only the areas which they desire to possess. Mike pointed out that auto mechanics do it this way through the National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence. Remove the certification of mechanics from the FAA arena and hand it over to a self governing non-profit governing body seems reasonable.

It would open the door and remove a lot of barriers to future professionals and hobbiest.

It seems like the EAA might be able to take a lead here. You know, organize some type of maintenance certification process for our community. The Sport Air workshops might be a start to the education, add onto it experience and testing to get some kind of license that allows something we all want. It does not seem like rocket science.
 
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No shortage now..

The mechanics shortage probably won't be due to Covid destroying the industry. I have been an A&P for 41 years, and also have my IA. I work for a very large MRO (Heavy Jets)repair station in NC, and also spent 25 years with the airlines, as well as working GA and building my -4. We have a program in which we take non-A&P's, have them do documented tasks in a "workbook" and then issue them letters to go take the test. We have a good relationship with the local FSDO to be sure everyone has the required hands on time. Since the A&P ticket allows you to work aircraft,rotorcraft, big,small,piston or turbine, its hard for someone to gain even slight turbine knowledge if they only have GA/experimental practical experience. Since most of my candidates have worked mostly turbine or helicopter and no GA, I have conducted hands-on "classes" with some of our prospects in the field of GA maintenance..piston engines and accessories,fabric,ect...so keep in mind, who ever signs your test application, they are looking for specific practical knowledge to cover all the certificate requirements.
 
Friend of mine in FL is a DME. A few months ago he had a part 147 applicant in for the practical and tasked him with installing a cylinder on a case with no cylinders. They don't work well when they're installed upside down on a Lycoming. Obviously got sent home without a temporary certificate.
 
I got my A&P last February and the FSDO interview was very very thorough on ensuring qualified experience. I had prior A&P apprentice experience for 5 years when I was younger and then 12 years of additional customer assist on certified aircraft. They made sure I had all the areas of experience checked. I also had to have a letter from the maintenance facility vouching for my experience and meeting the 30 months of full time employment. They seem pretty protective of making 100 percent certain you meet the requirements.
 
Why is there a Mechanic Shortage?

Mike Bush mentioned in a webinar once upon a time the insanity of expecting all licensed aircraft mechanics to spend thousands of hours over multiple years to learn all things for all aircraft some of which they may never use or desire to know. Example is meeting certification standards for Pressure carbs for round engines and fuel control units for turbine engines, when we work single engine Cessnas.

A better way was to break down the areas that Aircraft Mechanics might desire to gain certification for into a number of specialty areas. Then let an organization certify applicants in only the areas which they desire to possess. Mike pointed out that auto mechanics do it this way through the National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence. Remove the certification of mechanics from the FAA arena and hand it over to a self governing non-profit governing body seems reasonable.

It would open the door and remove a lot of barriers to future professionals and hobbiest.

It seems like the EAA might be able to take a lead here. You know, organize some type of maintenance certification process for our community. The Sport Air workshops might be a start to the education, add onto it experience and testing to get some kind of license that allows something we all want. It does not seem like rocket science.

Auto mechanics also do not have to prove experience to take the tests. Anyone that walks in and puts down the money can take them. Also with auto mechanics the ASE certification is not required. Only a handful of states even require a state issued license and again no formal training needed to take the tests.

I have been an auto mechanic for 25 years. I never had a day of official training except for working along side my dad who is also a mechanic. When I got layed off from my factory job when I was in Michigan I just went down and took the state tests. Back then it was only $7 per test in 7 different categories to get my master certification. Unfortunately auto mechanic and restoration experience doesn't count towards A&P experience which I can understand. In an airplane you can't just pull over and walk when something breaks.
 
I'd be happy to be quizzed by the MX inspector, and in fact expected it. I'm about to decide that since I didn't happen to think to get an A&P to document everything I did on my RV build, nor did I keep an AMT log for all the work I've done on certificated aircraft, I'm just out of luck. And, it is ok. I'm disappointed but not bitter about it. That is just how it is.
 
Just out today

Might need a Kitplanes login, but this came out in today's weekly from them:

Light Sport Repairman—Maintenance
-- Have you ever thought about becoming a licensed airframe and powerplant (A&P) mechanic, but put the idea out of your head because of the daunting requirements?

TL;DR:
... Lastly, as a certified Light Sport repairman-maintenance, any work you log on an S-LSA, E-LSA or any N-numbered Experimental, including building (as long as the project has an N-number reserved) counts as “being under the supervision of a certified mechanic” and can therefore be applied toward the 30-month minimum for the A&P exam. This is a great option for serial builders. After a couple of projects one could easily qualify for the A&P exam!
 
Might need a Kitplanes login, but this came out in today's weekly from them:

Light Sport Repairman—Maintenance
-- Have you ever thought about becoming a licensed airframe and powerplant (A&P) mechanic, but put the idea out of your head because of the daunting requirements?

TL;DR:

depends on how the FSDO looks at it, building airplanes really does not check off that many areas of study for the A&P. especially the P part. they are going to want to see records that you have done more than building.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
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