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Advanced Flight Systems compared to

Fenderbean

Well Known Member
Hi folks, still plenty of time before I get my kit but I recently started looking at these guys over going with an all Garmin setup. I love their 12' screens, im a bit spoiled to glass from flying it in the military but I have always hated smaller screens with too much on it. What are peoples thoughts on this vs garmin in the realm of features? My goal is to keep as much as I can accessible via the screens, so being about to do remote modules behind the panel to cover as much as I can another goal. It will be an FR bird for sure, only way to fly and with todays technology its soooo easy to do. Anyway thanks upfront and if this has been double tapped a million times the search function needs some work because I did search before posting. :D
 
Personal preferences

The following are just some thoughts based on my personal preferences, just ideas to consider.

Large cluttered screens are almost as bad as small cluttered screens. Think about how to declutter your display(s).
- My preference is to have a separate engine monitor, this will help declutter the main screen(s) a lot.

I prefer to have the screens display information only, and interact with physical components like radios & transponder. I know you said you wanted to keep everything inside the main screen, but there are some nice Becker units that have a small control head (won't eat up a lot of panel space), with the black box behind the panel (or wherever convenient).
This again allows more precise interaction and prevents cluttering the screen with frequency change pages etc.

As you know, comfortable IFR flying is about having the right information displayed in an easily readable (interpretable) way, at the right time. The less you have to mess with the display in order to get this to happen - the better.

I think the above philosophy can be applied to all the major manufacturers, but some may be easier to customize than others.
 
AFS is Great & Less $$$$

I have two AFS 5600T EFIS in my 9A.
They are configurable to permit you to choose whether some information is displayed or not.
The one thing I like about them - from an IFR point of view - is that your scan is simply from Left to Right and back again. No need for V scan, etc.
Very clean and Rob Hickman and team are phenomenal. You'll be hard pressed to find a more responsive customer support.
Save your $$$$ and go with AFS!
 
Install

I think something else to consider when choosing an EFIS system is the process of installing. If your buying a complete panel from someone with harness, then maybe not as important. But for me, where I like to not pay someone for that service, the AFS is well documented and very straight forward. For the Garmin systems I have seen/heard,,, not so straight forward. Again, if your just having someone build the panel, maybe different story. But if I was paying someone to build my panel, I would probably do the advanced panel and have an integrated VPX type solution.
I currently own a single screen 5600 in a 7, a single screen 5500 in an RV-12 under construction and have a dual screen 5600 for a future project (probably a 10).
 
So many variables including your definition of "too much". I would recommend live exposure to all the candidates in the form of hands-on, kiosk demos, YouTube videos, etc. Configuration options give you quite a bit of control over degree of "clutter" as well.

Here's an example screenshot of an actual flight using G3X Touch, to give you a sense of one configuration. I didn't find this to be too cluttered. One think I particularly like about G3X touch is that any place on the screen can be touched and generally give some type of "drill down" to get more info like wx, frequencies, etc.
 

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All great information, that was part of what I was wondering about being able to declutter and have what I need/want on the screens. I do want to use VPX and try to eliminate lower the amount of required wiring/equipment which help lower weight.

I have looked at Dynon but I don't like the tray style at the bottom, or at least I don't think I would but I haven't had a chance to see one on real world.

Im hoping to get out a see some of this stuff first hand to help narrow it down.
 
Some Thoughts

I've flown behind most of the modern glass. There seems to be a trend of "get the biggest screens you can get." Keep in mind that, other than the 10, you are going to be approximately 18" from the screens.

The best thing you could do is try to catch rides with other RV owners to see their set ups and see the glass. Fly behind all sizes. My neighbor has a AFS 5600 in his 7. I helped fly off much of his 40 hours. I found I didn't like the giant screen (and now there are bigger ones). I felt like I was sitting in the 3rd row at the theater. The helicopter I fly at work has a Garmin 500H. The screens are 6"x8" or so. It is plenty big to get all the information needed. Another neighbor built a 7 with the AFS 5500 sized screens and I found them to be perfect in size for the 7.

I put two Advanced Flight Systems 5500 T's in my new 7. They are matched with a stack that includes a Garmin 750 and SL40. This provides a perfect symmetry. Both screens are an easy reach and perfect for size and viewing. And, I'm old!!

Regarding the companies. If doing again I'd have the panel completely done for me, bench tested and ready to install. Probably AFS with all of their products. No brand mixing. AFS is without equal in customer support and availability. Amazing people. You cannot go wrong and won't be disappointed.

Garmin is also a great product. My grip is the cost of upgrades. Not cheap. My other grip is service. Service is NOT cheap. As an example, if my 750 had a problem, it is $1500 (I think that is the current price) to just accept it into the shop. Could be more from there. That is 10% of the cost of the unit.

AFS upgrades are more reasonable and the service is far less expensive. Again, you won't be disappointed.

It is nice to have so many choices.
 
I

Garmin is also a great product. My grip is the cost of upgrades. Not cheap. My other grip is service. Service is NOT cheap. As an example, if my 750 had a problem, it is $1500 (I think that is the current price) to just accept it into the shop. Could be more from there. That is 10% of the cost of the unit.

AFS upgrades are more reasonable and the service is far less expensive. Again, you won't be disappointed.

It is nice to have so many choices.

You're comparing apples to oranges when you compare the cost to service a certified IFR 750 navigator to the cost for service of an experimental display or other such box. Also the cost for Garmin service is a flat rate so no matter what's wrong the price is fixed, it doesn't "go up from there".

Check the price for repair service for the other supplier of IFR navigators if you want to make a fair comparison.
 
One AFS 5600T in my RV7A. Use it for flight instruments and have the engine instruments configured across the bottom of the same screen. Fabulous...everything important right in front of me. Five years and over 500 hours and totally satisfied with the product and the service. Very highly recommended. I also bought the AFS angle of attack option that reads out on the same screen and also sends an audible stall warning through my headset. I have it set to alarm at 7 kts above the stall so no chance of an inadvertent stall at any weight or speed or flap configuration. This device also gives me best glide speed at any weight. It’s a miracle and now I would not fly without it or something truly equivalent (if such a thing really exists). When RV flyers tell me that they have no stall warning system in their aircraft I just think it’s totally totally crazy. That Vans produced literally 1000s of kits with no stall warning system was really negligent. Anyway that’s my take on it.
 
One AFS 5600T in my RV7A. Use it for flight instruments and have the engine instruments configured across the bottom of the same screen. Fabulous...everything important right in front of me. Five years and over 500 hours and totally satisfied with the product and the service. Very highly recommended. I also bought the AFS angle of attack option that reads out on the same screen and also sends an audible stall warning through my headset. I have it set to alarm at 7 kts above the stall so no chance of an inadvertent stall at any weight or speed or flap configuration. This device also gives me best glide speed at any weight. It’s a miracle and now I would not fly without it or something truly equivalent (if such a thing really exists). When RV flyers tell me that they have no stall warning system in their aircraft I just think it’s totally totally crazy. That Vans produced literally 1000s of kits with no stall warning system was really negligent. Anyway that’s my take on it.

All current EFIS manufacturers offer AoA Captain - its not a unique offering, and anyone buying a pan EFIS from G, D, GRT, AFS, or MGL have it by default....they do have to choose to buy a probe.
 
That Vans produced literally 1000s of kits with no stall warning system was really negligent. Anyway that’s my take on it.

Sorry, but that is inappropriate. Are they equally negligent for not including an airspeed indicator? They sell airframe kit, not a complete airplane.
 
Sorry, but that is inappropriate. Are they equally negligent for not including an airspeed indicator? They sell airframe kit, not a complete airplane.

The engine they provide with each kit is also completely worthless. As is the prop, and the paint job, and the interior. You're building an airplane - you can't expect to have EVERYthing handed to you.
 
What I was told!!

You're comparing apples to oranges when you compare the cost to service a certified IFR 750 navigator to the cost for service of an experimental display or other such box. Also the cost for Garmin service is a flat rate so no matter what's wrong the price is fixed, it doesn't "go up from there".

Check the price for repair service for the other supplier of IFR navigators if you want to make a fair comparison.

The entire emphasis was that something repaired by Garmin is going to be more than Dynon/AFS, GRT etc. The fact that the 750 is certified has no bearing because Garmin has a flat fee arrangement with everything. And that fee is significant.

When my 430 failed (two weeks out of warranty) the guy told me it was $750 and that would likely cover it but it could go up from there. I'm not making it up, that is what I was told. If they've changed, I stand corrected.

I am not the first to get repair sticker shock from Garmin and won't be the last. Don't get me wrong, I love Garmin stuff but buyers need to beware of the potential costs of upgrades and service.
 
The entire emphasis was that something repaired by Garmin is going to be more than Dynon/AFS, GRT etc. The fact that the 750 is certified has no bearing because Garmin has a flat fee arrangement with everything. And that fee is significant.

You're just making a generalization, Garmin's exchange prices on all their G3X equipment is VERY reasonable.
The cost to repair/certify IFR certified navigators is understandably more than the experimental boxes we use.
 
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I do like the larger screens for one simple fact that it makes the items in my cross check bigger for flying instruments, im not gonna lie if I could fit 3 of the 12 in AFS on panel in an RV10 I probably would. Im not one to do things for show off purposes, I have always had a hard time with the commercial side of the primary flight displays. Too much packed around the stuff you need to focus on.

I really like the feed back on service from AFS, as a small business owner I understand the value in that and appreciate it.

I will def make sure I see these before making a decision on which to go with.
 
Sorry, but that is inappropriate. Are they equally negligent for not including an airspeed indicator? They sell airframe kit, not a complete airplane.

I’m not talking here about panel instrumentation. I’m talking about a mechanism that senses critical flight data and needs to be incorporated into the airframe.

Would it be negligent for a kit manufacturer not to provide a pitot in the kit to provide an airspeed source...of course it would. Same applies to a stall warning source. It was ludicrous to think that RV builders would conjure up their own stall warning source and hack into their wing leading edge to instal it. And consequently they did not. That resulted in 1000s of RVs taking to the air with no stall warning system. Fortunately Vans have now seen the error of their ways and now provide a stall warning source in all of their kits. Builders of early models took the lack of a stall warning source to mean that Vans thought stall warning was not necessary. Many lives have been lost because of that.
 
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I’m not talking here about panel instrumentation. I’m talking about a mechanism that senses critical flight data and needs to be incorporated into the airframe.

Would it be negligent for a kit manufacturer not to provide a pitot in the kit to provide an airspeed source...of course it would. Same applies to a stall warning source. It was ludicrous to think that RV builders would conjure up their own stall warning source and hack into their wing leading edge to instal it. And consequently they did not. That resulted in 1000s of RVs taking to the air with no stall warning system. Fortunately Vans have now seen the error of their ways and now provide a stall warning source in all of their kits. Builders of early models took the lack of a stall warning source to mean that Vans thought stall warning was not necessary. Many lives have been lost because of that.

No pitot was provided on my 10 kit. I was expected to buy one and numerous affordable options existed. I suspect that Van's assumed no one with a 10 would want the #4 3003 tube option. However, I see your point on the earlier models, where AOA was not readily available for purchase affordably.

Larry
 
Ongoing costs

My main reason for selecting a Dynon/AFS over the Garmin was the ongoing costs. You can purchase the map updates for life with the Dynon/AFS and be done with it. The Garmin will eat at you every year. Look at the spend over 10 years. Significant savings.

I ended up with dual large screen HDX's. Also installed the AP panel and the knob panel. Been very pleased.
 
My main reason for selecting a Dynon/AFS over the Garmin was the ongoing costs. You can purchase the map updates for life with the Dynon/AFS and be done with it. The Garmin will eat at you every year. Look at the spend over 10 years. Significant savings.

I ended up with dual large screen HDX's. Also installed the AP panel and the knob panel. Been very pleased.

Dang you just made up my mind lol I hate that kind of stuff, GMC wanted to charge me 250+ to just update the maps in my truck LOL

Im assuming AFS will support Garmin items like coms, autopilot control?
I really like the Garmin control head for auto pilot over the dynon that you see on AFS website. THe plan is to use the modules as much as possible to integrate as much as I can into the touch screen.
 
I have sent both Garmin and Dynon/AFS units back for warranty repair. Dynon shipped a replacement same day and allowed me 30 days to return the defective unit without charge.(3 days downtime). When my GNC 355 required warranty repair, I was told to ship back to Garmin for repair. If I wanted a replacement/loaner then they would need to charge my credit card $6995 until my unit was repaired and the loaner returned. I opted for no loaner (hoping for a quick turnaround), and in the end my GNC 355 was replaced with a new unit (16 days downtime).
 
I have sent both Garmin and Dynon/AFS units back for warranty repair. Dynon shipped a replacement same day and allowed me 30 days to return the defective unit without charge.(3 days downtime). When my GNC 355 required warranty repair, I was told to ship back to Garmin for repair. If I wanted a replacement/loaner then they would need to charge my credit card $6995 until my unit was repaired and the loaner returned. I opted for no loaner (hoping for a quick turnaround), and in the end my GNC 355 was replaced with a new unit (16 days downtime).

+1
I got burned by the TSO side of Garmin’s after the sale service. Dynon however provides next day air replacements on just a phone call and a promise to send in whatever the component was (the only one I had was infant death of one ADHARS modules). I’ve now done four dual screen SkyView installs with all the other Dynon elements (XPDR, Comm, Autopilot, ADS-B receiver, EMS and such). Installation is straight forward yielding a fully integrated suite with the Garmin TSO GTN-650 navigator, and operation is very intuitive (not like the GTN-650).

Carl
 
Im assuming AFS will support Garmin items like coms, autopilot control?
I really like the Garmin control head for auto pilot over the Dynon that you see on AFS website. The plan is to use the modules as much as possible to integrate as much as I can into the touch screen.

That's a negative. You'll need to use the Dynon A/P servos and controls. Some opt to install a TruTrak or similar that is driven off their IFR navigator but it won't be integrated tightly with the EFIS.

Also, lots of complaints about Seattle Avionics download manager on the Dynon forum for Dynon IFR charts. That said, the price is right.
 
I’m not talking here about panel instrumentation. I’m talking about a mechanism that senses critical flight data and needs to be incorporated into the airframe.

Would it be negligent for a kit manufacturer not to provide a pitot in the kit to provide an airspeed source...of course it would. Same applies to a stall warning source. It was ludicrous to think that RV builders would conjure up their own stall warning source and hack into their wing leading edge to instal it. And consequently they did not. That resulted in 1000s of RVs taking to the air with no stall warning system. Fortunately Vans have now seen the error of their ways and now provide a stall warning source in all of their kits. Builders of early models took the lack of a stall warning source to mean that Vans thought stall warning was not necessary. Many lives have been lost because of that.

Maybe the underlying issue is the different regulatory controls in AUS, Canada and UK compared to here in the USA for the experimental category. We have a lot more freedom to do as we choose here in the US. Selection of engines, instrumentation, wiring, panel layout, labeling, switches, pilot operating manual etc. etc. is all up to the individual builder even if it doesnt make sense to those with experience in those matters. Pretty much as long as the paperwork is in order, it meets a minimum set of build standards and it isn't going to rain parts down from the skies on the first flight it is going to get an airworthiness certificate here in the US and yes some are going to (and do) have a very bad day. I doubt that Vans saw it as “the error of their ways” probably more as a business decision because it was what was popular and selling with each kit so including it in the kit made sense. We could discuss all manner of issues in terms of standardization, from instrument panel layout to switch selection, to secondary controls position, to labeling, to pilot operating manual, minimum pilot training etc. etc. Homing in on one aspect of the freedom to live on the edge in the experimental world may only make a small dent in the problem of encouraging everyone to stay safe.

KT
 
Coming back to an earlier post in this thread, I'll chime in with my "me, too" comment...

I'm unabashedly a "glass" guy, through and through. But I'm also old enough and have spent a lifetime in the avionics industry. These factors make me want to be less reliant on a single failure point.
EDIT: The single most common failure mode in modern avionics is "helmet fire" on the part of the operator. That's why I need to keep things simple, otherwise, sooner or later, I WILL screw up!

My panel features three EFIS devices. All are from GRT Avionics. On the left side of the panel is a GRT Mini-X with mapping, synthetic vision and internal battery. Beside it is a GRT HX which comes with mapping, synthetic vision and sensed AOA (GRT has had computed or inferred AOA for years, without needing to add an AOA probe - the sensed AOA requires a probe). On the right side of the panel is a GRT Sport EX in its most basic and economical form. Behind the panel is a GRT EIS-66R remote engine instrument system. All of my radios are in the stack; PS Engineering PDA360EX audio panel, GNS480 GPS navigator/nav/com, SL30 nav/com and Trig TC20 control head for the remote-mounted TT22 transponder. The autopilot is a "flat pack" TruTrak Vizion 385 with switching to allow it to be driven from either the GNS480 or GRT HX EFIS.

My typical configuration is to have the Mini-X always in PFD mode. In fact that's sort of my unwritten rule - don't touch the Mini-X as it's my "rock", no matter what happens with anything else in the panel, I will always have rock-solid PFD data available to me with zero button pushes. The Sport EX over on the right side typically stays in full-screen engine monitor mode. The HX often is in PFD mode or split screen PFD/map with HSI overlay.

The level of information available to the pilot in this multi-screen environment is incredible. The amount of button pushing to have the pilot provided complete flight, navigation and engine information is zero - it's all there, all the time. I typically leave the autopilot such that it is driven by the GNS480, thus almost all of my button-pushing is on the GNS480 once the A/P mode is selected. Pilot workload is very low.

I've flown with bigger glass and smaller glass. I'm not a huge fan of a single bigger display that's segmented into smaller areas by function. I've found I'm also not a huge fan of engine info displayed as a ribbon across the bottom of the screen. Truth be told, I'm very spoiled by my three-screen configuration - I like it... a LOT!

With all that having been said, I guess my core message is that you as a PILOT have to figure out how YOUR brain processes information. This intimate knowledge of how the PILOT performs must be used to drive how the BUILDER builds the airplane. If you build the airplane in a manner that runs against decades of ingrained pilot procedures you will find yourself uncomfortable in your new cockpit. That new cockpit should have all the gee-whiz bells and whistles you can afford, but still should feel like a comfortable old pair of shoes - just a natural fit.

It doesn't matter which avionics vendor you go with - they are all pretty good. Test fly them all, then drive your hardest bargain with your vendor of choice.

Don't forget the other options available to you in building your panel, too. The AFS Advanced Control Module is one which you might find suits your style of minimal clutter on the panel. Personally, I'm a toggle switch and circuit breaker guy, but that's just me - do what's right for YOU!
 
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+1
I have the same philosophy. Mostly GRT, but my standby EFIS is a Dynon D6 with battery backup. Everything is there, very little button pushing enroute.
 
That's a negative. You'll need to use the Dynon A/P servos and controls. Some opt to install a TruTrak or similar that is driven off their IFR navigator but it won't be integrated tightly with the EFIS.

Also, lots of complaints about Seattle Avionics download manager on the Dynon forum for Dynon IFR charts. That said, the price is right.

YOu cant even use the panel controls? dang that changes some things. Thanks
 
YOu cant even use the panel controls? dang that changes some things. Thanks

Not correct. You can control the SkyView autopilot via the SkyVIew EFIS. You have full autopilot functality without the remote autopilot control module. Most choose to install the remote module as well as that module also provides all the trim servo switching you need (as in your don’t need to buy something like the Safety Trim product). It also enables auto trim when in the Autopilot mode, and the wing level function.

The other comments about comparing the SKyView Autopilot module to the Garmin version; I find the Garmin version to be way too big and clunky for what it does. But I guess other must like it.

Carl
 
YOu cant even use the panel controls? dang that changes some things. Thanks

This is not correct, you can control the Dynon Autopilot from the EFIS screen or SV-AP-PANEL on a Skyview or an AF-5000 EFIS.

The Autotrim electronics are in the SV-AP-PANEL.

The AF-5000 EFIS can use the Garmin G5 as a backup ADAHRS, not only will it use it for cross checking it will also let you use it as the ADAHRS source.


Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
 
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ACM-ECB

Since someone mentioned our Advanced Control Module with Electronic Circuit Breakers.....

If you have flown one of Van's demo planes chances are you have already used our ACM-ECB. Van's has our ACM-ECB in their RV-14, RV-14A, RV-7, RV-7A, and the RV-9A.


Overview
The Advanced Panel system is based on our Advanced Control Module “ACM-ECB”. The electronic circuit breaker “ECB” version has internal circuit current monitoring and will shut off a circuit if the current is too high. With the ACM-ECB you can monitor the current of each circuit and reset any tripped circuits from the EFIS. The ACM is the main power distribution center for the aircrafts electrical system. The avionics, headsets, aircraft lights, autopilot servos, trim servos, flap motor, control sticks and panel switches all get connected to the ACM. Using the ACM with its plug and play features vastly simplifies an aircraft’s wiring and troubleshooting. The ACM also makes future upgrades extremely easy. Want to add an IFR Navigator in the future? No problem, just plug it into the ACM NAV-COM and GPS NAVIGATOR plugs. The complicated and time consuming (Audio Panel, GPS RS-232 data, NAV ARINC data and GPS ARINC) wiring is already done.

ACM-ECB Features
• 27 dedicated channels of circuit protection including: PFD, MFD, BACKUP EFIS, TRANSPONDER-ADSB, COM 1, NAV 1, COM 2, NAV 2, GPS NAVIGATOR, AUDIO PANEL, CABIN LIGHTS, DEFROST, ALTERNATOR, AUX POWER, STARTER, BOOST PUMP, PITOT HEAT, LEFT LANDING LIGHT, RIGHT LANDING LIGHT, NAV LIGHTS, STROBE LIGHTS, TRIM MOTORS, AP SERVOS, FLAP MOTOR. BACKUP ALTERNATOR, TAXI LIGHTS, SPARE POWER CIRCUIT, CABIN LIGHT SWITCH
• Built in SV-ARINC module
• Multi Step Flap Positioning System
• Wig-Wag Lighting Circuit (airspeed controlled)
• Panel Dimmer
• Trim Controller (must have SV-AP-PANEL)
• SV Network Hub (4 Port + AP Servos)
• Panel Switch Interface with support for switch lights
• Control Stick Interface

The Vertical Power VPX system is only an Electronic Circuit Breaker system. It replaces the traditional Circuit Breakers in an aircrafts panel, it also gives you wig-wag lighting and flap position control. A customer would still need to wire all the ARINC, RS-232, audio, radios, intercom and wire all the power for these devices to the VPX box. Once you get a VPX system wired you must program all the inputs, outputs and amperage with a PC.

The Approach Faststack is a hub system for all the avionics with the red and black power wires that then need to be connected to circuit breakers. In a sense the ACM-ECB is a combination of a VPX and Faststack in a single box.

One of the major advantages of an ACM-ECB is we provide pre made switch modules that connect to the ACM with a single ribbon cable eliminating all the complicated switch wiring. If you want to use toggle switches, no problem just wire them to the switch connector.

Pricing Comparison

VPX Pro $2,195
SV-ARINC $450
SV-NET-5-Port Hub $50
VPX License $350
--------------------------------------------------
TOTAL $3,045

ACM-ECB $2,750

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems / Dynon Avionics
 
I think I confused folks, I do understand the auto pilot can be controlled via EFIS, I personally like the garmin control head better is all I was trying to say. I think at my level sticking with one or the other is probably a good idea. That being said if it’s easy to match certain items from one to the other it maybe something to consider. I’m in the planning phase, new shop goes up soon and once built the order is next.
All good post, I feel like everything I ask has been hit a million times already, but even using the search function I don’t get a lot of hits on specific things bouncing around in my head.
 
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IFR failure and recovery modes

Hi folks, still plenty of time before I get my kit but I recently started looking at these guys over going with an all Garmin setup. I love their 12' screens, im a bit spoiled to glass from flying it in the military but I have always hated smaller screens with too much on it. What are peoples thoughts on this vs garmin in the realm of features? My goal is to keep as much as I can accessible via the screens, so being about to do remote modules behind the panel to cover as much as I can another goal. It will be an FR bird for sure, only way to fly and with todays technology its soooo easy to do. Anyway thanks upfront and if this has been double tapped a million times the search function needs some work because I did search before posting. :D

The thing that pushed me over the edge was the failure and recovery modes. Since I have built an IFR panel (not yet flying), I went with primarily Garmin because because if the GTN625 fails the flight plan has already migrated to the G3X so you can continue without the workload climbing. If the GTN comes back the GTN allows you to adopt the flightplan that is still in the G3X. It's all very transparent and works like a charm. I have tested it on the bench and in the working panel.

The other thing, from a redundancy perspective, I installed the TruTrak Gemini so the update of code on the Garmin stack is independent. The Gemini is an MFD even when not using the autopilot function. It can take the direction from the GTN (GPSS) or the G3X (which I have done as a manual switch for ARINC and serial). One switch position is just independent so it takes neither feed if you just want an MFD or manual input to the AP. And yes, Garmin used a separate code tree to maintain independence of the G5, but when code is pushed during an update it does so to the G5 as well so if there is a problem you can take out the whole garmin stack in one shot. Not so when the Trutrak is separate.

Finally, ASI, compass, Altimeter steam gauges made for worst case IFR partial panel recovery (or tie breaker).

I was very interested in Advanced and and an Avidyne panel until I tested failure modes.

Good luck in your decision. There isn't a bad one with all the great things all these panels can do.

Cheers.
 
Bigdog that's a nice thought process, as what happens when things fail is burning in my brain since I have a back ground in aviation safety which completely changes the way you look at everything :p

Some of the things you mentioned don't register to my current level of understanding but as I research things and talk to people hopefully I can come up with something that works for me and is safe for me and the family.

I went to the gemini page and looked a the specs, any thoughts on the auto leveling feature? This could be very helpful if one starts to develop spatial D
 
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auto level aka Blue Button ?

Bigdog that's a nice thought process, as what happens when things fail is burning in my brain since I have a back ground in aviation safety which completely changes the way you look at everything :p

Some of the things you mentioned don't register to my current level of understanding but as I research things and talk to people hopefully I can come up with something that works for me and is safe for me and the family.

I went to the gemini page and looked a the specs, any thoughts on the auto leveling feature? This could be very helpful if one starts to develop spatial D

Hi Keith

The blue button is as you suggest the life saver in the event of disorientation. I have it set on the panel accessible to myself or the passenger/co-pilot with instructions of course when it's appropriate to use.

I have tested it on the bench and works like a charm regardless if the autopilot function is turned on or not. I expect Garmin has something similar.

I tested it in attitudes that would have locked up an analog AP. As it's digital it was able to recover (meaning the servos did what they should - since it was on the bench).

But yes, overall when piecing together all the disparate systems it's tough to know the starting point to establish an IFR highly redundant setup. My starting point was flight in a friends aircraft with a GTN650 to see how it behaved. By that time there was already some catch up by Garmin so they had improved the GTN650 to be better compared to the IFD440.
Then on to Sun & Fun to look at the capabilities and failure/recovery mechanisms of the AFS/Avidyne against the Garmin stack with GTN/G3X. I did check Dynon and MGL as well. My first choice would have been AFS ... IF they could have recovered from a GPS fault. Only seamless with Garmin. So if the mission is the lowest workload during the worst events my final solution was as mentioned above.

Hope that helps.
 
I think it would be a huge mistake to install a TT AP in a Garmin G3X system, the Garmin AP performs and integrates flawlessly with the rest of the system. The servos are also much better quality IMO. Not to mention the G3X support if it's ever needed. Call up TT/BK and see if you can actually reach a person that knows anything about the integration with Garmin G3X.
 
I have the gemini, afs4500, and gtn635. I don't think the blue button will do what you want in the air. In some situations it might, but the servos have torque limits and will give up when overloaded, in regards to recovering from unusual attitudes. I use the blue button all the time to level off and then hand off to the AFS. My next build will be all afs and avidyne.
 
For failure someone mention the flight plan having migrated to the EFIS from the gps navigator as if the AFS wouldn’t do that. Well it will. I have an IFD440 and an AFS screen. The flight plan comes across. If the power comes back to the IFD it will retain any saved flight plans. So there is no advantage.

One of the advantages for me is the way the IFD and the AFS work together. With the two systems using the same colours there is less chance of helmet fire.

Also both AFS and the IFD have a mixture of real buttons and soft keys. That works well in turbulence.
 
Same basic experience here

When my first Garmin autopilot servo died, I had to pay them for a new one, and then get a credit when I sent the failed one back. At least when the second one failed (same problem), they did not charge me before sending the replacement.

My 430W is getting sticky button syndrome. As of a few years ago, it was $900 minimum for Garmin to look at it. My understanding was that this was NOT a maximum, but I'm not positive. Not sure what the fee structure is now.

Navigation & obstacle data for the 430W costs $, but that is the price of admission to IFR -- I don't know of any certified GPS navigators that don't charge for data. But if you're just blasting around VFR, the data for the GRT is free, which is a really big savings.


I have sent both Garmin and Dynon/AFS units back for warranty repair. Dynon shipped a replacement same day and allowed me 30 days to return the defective unit without charge.(3 days downtime). When my GNC 355 required warranty repair, I was told to ship back to Garmin for repair. If I wanted a replacement/loaner then they would need to charge my credit card $6995 until my unit was repaired and the loaner returned. I opted for no loaner (hoping for a quick turnaround), and in the end my GNC 355 was replaced with a new unit (16 days downtime).
 
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