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Should I drill this rivet out?

CubedRoot

Well Known Member
So I riveted my first actual structure of tail kit tonight, and things went pretty good, save for one rivet I am questioning.

I was riveting the HS-412PP to the rear spar assembly, and my squeezer must have been offset or something, and I ended up slightly denting the top of the manufactured head of the rivet:

5QItSvAl.jpg


I haven't drilled it out yet, so I figured I would ask the collective knowledge here on the forums if I should or not.

Should I attempt to drill this sucker out and replace it? Its a AN470AD4-7 rivet, and I don't have any "oops rivets" yet. I am semi-confident I could drill it out without enlarging the hole, but if there is no need to, I will leave it.

Here is a link to the full size photo for better resolution of the rivet:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/W...ZaB6cff5kzHk7Z_VRPjBlQSJocp1IQ=w2532-h1898-no
 
Smiley

Hi

Rivets like this with a big smiley are very prone to cracking and breaking, as this is loaded not only on the spar stiffener but also on the bracket I would replace it.

Bear in mind that smiley has moved the centre dot on the rivet so this will need re aligning with a smaller drill. make sure you just take the head off and punch it out to avoid enlarging the hole.
 
MIL-STD-403C

Section: 5.2.7.5 Marring of the manufactured head. A cut or ring caused by the riveting equipment used shall be acceptable on non-flush rivets providing the depth of the cut is not greater than one-fourth of the head height. Cut or ringed flush rivets shall not be acceptable.

FYI (I'd replace the rivet)
 
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On upset head location.

MIL-STD-40007(1)

5.3.3.4 Upset head location. Unless otherwise specified in the engineering drawing, the upset head shall be located using the following order of precedence:

a. Against the thicker sheet.
b. Against the harder material.
c. On either side when thickness and hardness are identical.

FWIW

mjb
 
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practice, practice, practice, execute.

Should I attempt to drill this sucker out and replace it? Its a AN470AD4-7 rivet, and I don't have any "oops rivets" yet. I am semi-confident I could drill it out without enlarging the hole, but if there is no need to, I will leave it.

Yes drill it out, but practice by seeing some rivets in a spare/scrap piece of .063 and removing per the section 5 instructions. They are pretty good. Now is the time to begin this skill development. Never do something like this the first time on the plane. Learn to walk the drill bit on the head. A few revs, then check, walk it a little check again. Many times the hole gets too big to snap off the head with the punch, but an automatic center punch from HF will do the trick. I took my HF punch and spun the tip with a drill against the grinder until it was #40 drill size. Happy Building.

Get an assortment of NAS rivets (aka oops) now, but I thought they were only flush style not universal heads.
 
Drilling rivets

Yes drill it out, but practice by seeing some rivets in a spare/scrap piece of .063 and removing per the section 5 instructions. They are pretty good. Now is the time to begin this skill development. Never do something like this the first time on the plane. Learn to walk the drill bit on the head. A few revs, then check, walk it a little check again. Many times the hole gets too big to snap off the head with the punch, but an automatic center punch from HF will do the trick. I took my HF punch and spun the tip with a drill against the grinder until it was #40 drill size. Happy Building.

Get an assortment of NAS rivets (aka oops) now, but I thought they were only flush style not universal heads.

Agree. Practice. Search VAF for tips. Personally I prefer centerpunching the head then drilling about 50% with a tiny bit. Then I drill just the factory head using the correct bit in a drill stop so the bit can't go deep enough to hit any structural parts. After that, snap off the head. Use a backing bar with a hole in it (made a set) and punch out the rivet.
 
Yes drill it out, but practice by seeing some rivets in a spare/scrap piece of .063 and removing per the section 5 instructions. They are pretty good. Now is the time to begin this skill development. Never do something like this the first time on the plane. Learn to walk the drill bit on the head. A few revs, then check, walk it a little check again. Many times the hole gets too big to snap off the head with the punch, but an automatic center punch from HF will do the trick. I took my HF punch and spun the tip with a drill against the grinder until it was #40 drill size. Happy Building.

Get an assortment of NAS rivets (aka oops) now, but I thought they were only flush style not universal heads.

Good advice to practice. Does anyone make a drill guide that clamps over and centers on the rivet to be drilled out to error proof the drill out?
 
Would this work?

Looking at your attention to detail (painted hinge bracket holes after drilling...I can relate:)) , I don't think you will sleep well at night leaving this rivet as is.
However, due to the messed up rivet head, getting the bit centered and drilling through the middle of the rivet could be difficult. Like you mentioned, there is a possibility you may damage the surrounding material and end up with a hole that is less than desirable.
This idea is totally non-standard so hopefully more experienced builders can comment. Would it be possible to drill the rivet from the shop head side? (I haven't actually tried this). Possibly get the spar mounted nicely in a drill press, if available, and begin drilling with a small (1/16"?) bit. Once the bit broke though the factory head side, you would see where you stand regarding hole alignment. Then it may be possible to go back to factory head and use this hole (if close to center) to remove the head and continue to remove rivet normally.
Again, this is not standard, but though I'd put it out for discussion.
 
I have had good luck in these situations using a dremel and small cutting disc to CAREFULLY shave away the deformed manufactured head a little at a time, until nothing but the shank is left, and can then be punched out. Again, practice on scrap, but it can work well and you don't risk enlarging the hole.

Chris
 
I have had good luck in these situations using a dremel and small cutting disc to CAREFULLY shave away the deformed manufactured head a little at a time, until nothing but the shank is left, and can then be punched out. Again, practice on scrap, but it can work well and you don't risk enlarging the hole.

Chris

Same here - small piece of sacrificial aluminum around the manufactured head and an angled die grinder to sand the head flush. Sacrificial aluminum not required with experience and a steady hand:D
 
I'm sure it's been mentioned in a thread before, but the "backing bar with a hole drilled in it" can be used for other purposes, including, for example, "drawing" a skin and rib/stringer/etc. together during the riveting process.

I have several with increasing root hole sizes to provide optimum support even when the shop head isn't fully formed.

Onward and upward
 
Backing bar

I'm sure it's been mentioned in a thread before, but the "backing bar with a hole drilled in it" can be used for other purposes, including, for example, "drawing" a skin and rib/stringer/etc. together during the riveting process.

I have several with increasing root hole sizes to provide optimum support even when the shop head isn't fully formed.

Onward and upward

Like these?
Easy to make.
vpg7ww.jpg
 
So I have decided to drill this rivet out. I think I will pick up a set of oops rivets, but not sure where the best place to get them.

Cleaveland has this kit: http://www.cleavelandtool.com/OOPS-RIVET-KIT/productinfo/1097K/#prettyPhoto

But it looks like its all flush head rivets. Where's a good source I can order a decent set of oops rivets that would be good to have on hand for the build?

I also am thinking about ordering a rivet removal tool from Cleaveland as well. Looks like it will make removing universal head rivets way easier:
http://www.cleavelandtool.com/Rivet-Removal-Tool/productinfo/RRT4/

Has anyone ever used them? Are they worth the money?
 
So I have decided to drill this rivet out. I think I will pick up a set of oops rivets, but not sure where the best place to get them.

Cleaveland has this kit: http://www.cleavelandtool.com/OOPS-RIVET-KIT/productinfo/1097K/#prettyPhoto

But it looks like its all flush head rivets. Where's a good source I can order a decent set of oops rivets that would be good to have on hand for the build?

I also am thinking about ordering a rivet removal tool from Cleaveland as well. Looks like it will make removing universal head rivets way easier:
http://www.cleavelandtool.com/Rivet-Removal-Tool/productinfo/RRT4/

Has anyone ever used them? Are they worth the money?

Oops rivets can be nice, but those are for flush rivets. For standard rivets like in your current case, you would just need to go up a size. Before doing that, check the edge distance requirements for the larger hole, though. If you were to go up to a -5 rivet, that means 5/16" between center of hole and edge of material.

You should be able to remove that rivet without enlarging the hole and use another -4 rivet.

I don't have any experience with the rivet removal tool, but after some practice, it really isn't a difficult task. I use a slower-turning battery powered drill to do it.

Chris
 
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So I have decided to drill this rivet out. I think I will pick up a set of oops rivets, but not sure where the best place to get them.

Cleaveland has this kit: http://www.cleavelandtool.com/OOPS-RIVET-KIT/productinfo/1097K/#prettyPhoto

But it looks like its all flush head rivets. Where's a good source I can order a decent set of oops rivets that would be good to have on hand for the build?

I also am thinking about ordering a rivet removal tool from Cleaveland as well. Looks like it will make removing universal head rivets way easier:
http://www.cleavelandtool.com/Rivet-Removal-Tool/productinfo/RRT4/

Has anyone ever used them? Are they worth the money?

For many years I removed rivets w/o that tool. But in difficult locations or many to do, it is easier/quicker in some locations, but no way essential. Mine is seldom used. Learn the basics first.

Get yourself a General Aviation Hardware catalogue - you will need to sign up. It has an excellent technical reference for all fasteners aviation (and more) you can look up the NAS rivets with a +1 shank for a 0 head. Don't just get a "kit", know what you are getting. Vans has all of them but they are not all listed in the catalogue. Later look up use of NAS rivets for nut plates, and adopt that for your build.
 
"Unless otherwise specified in the engineering drawing"
And it does. Plans view on Drawing 3 indicates to see details on Drawing 5 (Detail D) which indicate the direction of the rivet in question.
To answer the OPs question; I would replace that rivet.
Lots of good advise here. I have used the sacrificial piece with a dremel, center drilled and snapped off the head. You'll need lots of "tools" in your tool box moving forward.
A lot of building one of these is learning how to fix things properly and safely because you WILL make make additional errors. Don't hesitate to bite the bullet and purchase new parts if it comes to that.
 
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Well folks, the deed is done, and I am happy. I had some time to work on this before we head out to my parents house for thanksgiving, so I figured I would try to drill it out.

First I used a my noxon punch to dimple a point in the head of the rivet. The little center dimple from the factory was barely visible, so I used it to center my punch. Then I took a fresh #40 bit and slathered it in boelube and chucked it up. I put it in the center punched dimple, and turned it by hand a few times to get the bit started. Then I slowly drilled the head down deep enough I could break the head off with the butt end of an old drill bit.

Then I got a bit creative.... I didn't have a receiving bar to drive the rivet into, so I ended up using a pair of vice grips. I stuck the jaws into a pair of leather gloves to keep from scratching the parts, and opened the jaws just enough so the rivet would fall into it. Then I used a punch and a small hammer to gently drive the old rivet out. My vise grips/glove worked pretty good as it received the rivet, and didn't scratch my skins!

Ihg0CMel.jpg
myOu6z3l.jpg


I checked the rivet and noticed that I had drilled perfectly center, and then checked the parts and the hole was undisturbed, so a regular rivet should work OK.

I stuck in a replacement normal rivet (AN470AD4-7) and squeezed it making sure I had my squeezer lined up and centered. It turned out great, and took about 30 minutes total time, since I was being cautious. I did end up scratching the nice paint on my bracket, I dropped the stupid punch as I pulled it away and the tip dug into the paint a little. Doesn't appear to be anything than just paint, so I will hit it with some rattle can primer to seal it up against corrosion, and let it ride. Here is the end result, with a fresh rivet:

FbFlGLml.jpg



Thanks for all the suggestions! This was a good learning experience that turned out well in the end!
 
Technique

Lynn
Excellent technique. Should serve you well in the future. You may have invented a new backing bar technique as well! Well done.
Advise. Buy a set of drill stops. I leave a #41 and #31 in them.
 
Dropsies

Hey

Well done. Now wait till you drop a heavy bucking bar inside the airframe, that punch will seem line nothing!:mad:
 
I did end up scratching the nice paint on my bracket, I dropped the stupid punch as I pulled it away and the tip dug into the paint a little. Doesn't appear to be anything than just paint, so I will hit it with some rattle can primer to seal it up against corrosion, and let it ride.


Ditch the rattle can primer junk...Van's sells bottles of touch-up paint in the exact color match to their powdercoat (or you can buy spray cans of that color, it's a stock powdercoat number).
 
Nice! Never knew they sold touch up paint. I'll have to check it out. S
Do they have it in their online catalog? Or is it something
I'll have to order over the phone?

Ir would be good to have some of this stuff on hand for the occasional touch up.
 
Nice! Never knew they sold touch up paint. I'll have to check it out. S
Do they have it in their online catalog? Or is it something
I'll have to order over the phone?

Ir would be good to have some of this stuff on hand for the occasional touch up.

http://vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1480051985-158-270&browse=misc&product=tu-paint

Description
Some of the steel parts supplied in the kits are powdercoated. Scratches can occur and we have small bottles of touch-up paint for older GRAY parts. PAINT, TOUCHUP PGRAY. This is Cardinal brand, color GR-230.

More recent WHITE parts are Cardinal brand, color T009-WH111 90% gloss. We do not have touch up paint available for this. An equivalent Sherwin Williams code is PWS9-40002. A Dupli-Color applicator is also available from some auto parts stores: part code NG CC 362.
Ordering Information
Pearl Gray touch-up paint.
Part Number = PAINT, TOUCHUP PGRAY
Price = $4.25
 
Misprint maybe?

I could not find the referenced Cardinal powder or touch up paint using the part number provided by Van's.

However, there is a Cardinal 90% white powder using the part number T009-WH11 (one less "1"). It is also available as touch up paint. Looks like I'll be buying some of the paint and the powder.
 
I could not find the referenced Cardinal powder or touch up paint using the part number provided by Van's.

However, there is a Cardinal 90% white powder using the part number T009-WH11 (one less "1"). It is also available as touch up paint. Looks like I'll be buying some of the paint and the powder.

Please let us know how good the match is. I did a number on my hinge bracket too and would be interested in touching it up later myself.
 
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