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N741BN - Panel Review

nilberg

Well Known Member
Here's my two panel options:

Option 1: With Compass
As I need a 2 1/2 opening for the EI Commander, I was thinking of also have another 2 1/2 instrument, why not a compass..
Compass-X2.jpg



Option 2: No compass
Dropping the compass (I am sure most readers will say "just do it !".
Some other placement options.
NoCompass-X2.jpg

Photos looks a little blurry, here's the gallery: https://bjornnilberg.smugmug.com/RV-7
 
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I do like your switch layout. It is set up for using in-flight, strobe and pitot heat next to each other, boost pump, cowl flaps and flaps within close reach of the throttle.

You may want to consider some separation between the alt air, parking brake and cabin heat. You "may" allow your passenger to touch the cabin heat and the defrost fan switch, but with your current layout they are too close to other push-pulls that you would not want them to touch.
 
Option 2
Why a beacon? If you remove it you?ll get a little ?feelable? space between the lights and alternator switches. Ergonomically desirable.
I?d move the starter button so you can use it with your left hand. You might be jockeying the mixture and throttle with your right while you are cranking.
I also put the flap and boost switch on the subpanel so I can thumb the flaps with my hand on the throttle. Very handy.
 
Regarding the compass, we have to have one in Canada, so I'm a supporter. But, the investigation I did convinced me that a panel mount compass may not be a good place due to the EM of the nearby radios and displays. I mounted mine on the slider longitudinal brace.

Regarding the push pull knobs, especially the cabin heat one that the co-pilot/passenger may be operating, I encourage you to mock this up with the co-pilot control stick travel. I found potential interference on mine and moved it to the right side of the lower panel.
 
Thank you for all the input.
I have separated some of the controls and made small adjustments:

- Distance between engine/flight and environmental controls. E.g. Distance between ALT AIR and DEFOG/HEAT.

- Use fuses for P-MAGS to clear space for left ENGINE START button

- TOGA at control bracket (my hands are too big for FLAPS close to controls)

- Combined STROBE/BCN switch
Yes, BEACON... is to avoid blinding other pilots when taxi. STROBE goes on when entering runway.

I also probably leave the BEACON on such that when MASTER is on, the BEACON is on. The OFF is used in the hanger when goofing around with the avionics (software updates etc.)

https://bjornnilberg.smugmug.com/RV-7

3%20Left%20Start%20Panel-X2.jpg
 
Very nice panel indeed. But I like option 2 better. You will be touching the 650 or the A/P controller a lot more than the EIC so higher up for those are more convenient and readable.

Some other thoughts, would it still fit if you swap the EIC and G5. If there is a real need to use the G5, it will be more useful in that location for both the pilot and co-pilot.
I would also consider moving the warning lights to somewhere that is not directly in your face. There will be hard to miss if they go on even on the right side of the panel but if they go on at night, they will be very distracting.
 
Some thoughts:
- For the pMags recommend a simple on/off locking toggle switch (one for each) and a 5 amp pull breaker (do not use your VPX). To test the pMags you do a simple manual trip of the breaker. This also provides for a visual ?breaker popped open? indication as compared to a blown fuse someplace buried in the panel. This eliminates the momentary toggle switch setup to test the pMags as well. BTW, I think you labeled your momentary switch wrong as is seems ?off - on - test? is what you want. Off - pMag control off but pMags get ship power. On - pMag control on and pMags get ship power. Test (momentary) - pMag control on but you take away ship power to make sure the internal generator is working. DPDT switch is required.
- I assume both EFIS displays are fed via the VPX. What mitigations have you taken in the event the VPX fails to keep at least one display up and running. Note - the GTN-650 displays is not a viable backup.
- You have a selection between primary and backup alternator. If you use the nice B&C 20 amp standby alternator there is no need for a selector switch. The standby alternator automatically picks up the load. You will have indication of this by the B&C voltage regulator yellow indication light coming on, and buss voltage dropping from the typical 14.1vdc to 13.5vdc or so.
- I?d leave the G5 where it is. If you are really down to just that you want it in front of you and as high as possible.

Carl
 
For the PMag switches... If you do want to stay with the three position switch, you need to change the order to make it sensible.

Going through "off" to get the the momentary "test" which is basically another "off" doesn't make any sense, as the switch would then return to "off".

A two pole, on-off, would work fine.
 
Stein sells and Alt Air toggle switch valve. I stuck mine off to the left side of the panel since I don't plan on using it often and that gets it out of the main switch area. Plus you can route the tubing to the nearby G3 and etc. In your case you could put it above the G5 or possibly on the outboard side of it.
 
For the PMag switches... If you do want to stay with the three position switch, you need to change the order to make it sensible.

Going through "off" to get the the momentary "test" which is basically another "off" doesn't make any sense, as the switch would then return to "off".

A two pole, on-off, would work fine.

Yes, my labeling is not ideal, your suggestion was what I intended, but I got a little sloppy, to focus on lining things up. I’ll use the LT-005 from Steinair which is a locking switch which would fit well for this purpose.
It’s a ON/ON/MOM, where switching between the two ON positions require pulling. The MOM is a spring loaded momentary ON.
So for me is will use it as OFF/ON/Ground which mean Own Power/Ship Power/No Sparks.
 
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Stein sells and Alt Air toggle switch valve. I stuck mine off to the left side of the panel since I don't plan on using it often and that gets it out of the main switch area. Plus you can route the tubing to the nearby G3 and etc. In your case you could put it above the G5 or possibly on the outboard side of it.

My Alt Air is for the fuel servo inlet, not the static.
I do however see I forgot to include an alternative for the static. I am not sure I?ll put it in the panel.
 
Some thoughts:
- For the pMags recommend a simple on/off locking toggle switch (one for each) and a 5 amp pull breaker (do not use your VPX). To test the pMags you do a simple manual trip of the breaker. This also provides for a visual “breaker popped open” indication as compared to a blown fuse someplace buried in the panel. This eliminates the momentary toggle switch setup to test the pMags as well. BTW, I think you labeled your momentary switch wrong as is seems “off - on - test” is what you want. Off - pMag control off but pMags get ship power. On - pMag control on and pMags get ship power. Test (momentary) - pMag control on but you take away ship power to make sure the internal generator is working. DPDT switch is required.
- I assume both EFIS displays are fed via the VPX. What mitigations have you taken in the event the VPX fails to keep at least one display up and running. Note - the GTN-650 displays is not a viable backup.
- You have a selection between primary and backup alternator. If you use the nice B&C 20 amp standby alternator there is no need for a selector switch. The standby alternator automatically picks up the load. You will have indication of this by the B&C voltage regulator yellow indication light coming on, and buss voltage dropping from the typical 14.1vdc to 13.5vdc or so.
- I’d leave the G5 where it is. If you are really down to just that you want it in front of you and as high as possible.

Carl

I still need to ground the P—lead when testing, that is what I meant with test.

The P-Mags is powered outside the VPX.

Critical G3x equipment including PFD have secondary power from the IBBS following their suggested wiring.
 
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Center the G5

I have my G5 high and in the middle. I figure that if it is truly operating as a backup, I don't want my eyes searching too far from the center of the windscreen during a high stress situation.

image001.jpg
 
Latest version of the panel.

Putting the G5 in the center has grown on me. It makes the panel less cramped and have freed up some room to put an obscure "Alternate Static switch" o the left.

I am getting close, but I need to check the actual visible area on the panel top part as the tip-up canopy will cover up some of it.

G5%20Center%20Panel-X2.jpg
 
I still need to ground the P?lead when testing, that is what I meant with test.

Critical G3x equipment including PFD have secondary power from the IBBS following their suggested wiring.

You do not ground the p-lead to test, you keep the pMag control on and turn off ship power to the pMag to make sure the internal generator is working (engine running). To do a ?mag check? you take each pMag to off, one at a time.

If you got the big IBBS (6ah) you will have a less than an hour of full panel IFR time as your electrical reserve. Does this meet your design criteria?

Carl
 
The PMAG test is different than standard mags. There are actually 2 tests for the PMAG. What most people consider the PMAG test is where you open the +12V supply to the PMAG to verify that the internal generator is operational. The other test is where you ground the P-lead like a normal mag and turn off that PMAG.

I have normally closed switches for the +12V supply with a momentary test position. In my configuration I have a standard ignition switch which controls the P-Lead like a standard mag. There are many ways that people have wired these up though.

I think I have that correct anyway.
 
If you got the big IBBS (6ah) you will have a less than an hour of full panel IFR time as your electrical reserve. Does this meet your design criteria?

Carl
From the switches it looks like there is a back up alternator so the IBBS provides some battery back up and the back up alternator provides reduced electrical power to run critical equipment. I do agree that an analysis of failures should be completed to insure that back up plans meet the design goals, but thats whole other discussion with lots of other opinions.
 
You do not ground the p-lead to test, you keep the pMag control on and turn off ship power to the pMag to make sure the internal generator is working (engine running). To do a ?mag check? you take each pMag to off, one at a time.

If you got the big IBBS (6ah) you will have a less than an hour of full panel IFR time as your electrical reserve. Does this meet your design criteria?

Carl

Of course, I totally misunderstood the P-Mag wiring. After re-reading the various threads, I think I finally get it:

Wether using a 2- or 3-pos switch:

1. OFF: P-lead grounded (no sparks, aka kill switch)
2. ON: External power ON

then

3. CB pulled or 3rd switch position: External power OFF

I saw a lot of discussion about using CB as switch or not. I guess, it comes down to a personal choice and as the LT-005 from Steinair is available, I going for the 3-pos switch option.

For the power reserve, yes 1 hour will do. I also plan not to have the IBBS powered through the VPX, so there is also the main battery feeding the IBBS, and the optionally, the GTN directly.
 
Latest version of the panel.

Putting the G5 in the center has grown on me. It makes the panel less cramped and have freed up some room to put an obscure "Alternate Static switch" o the left.

I am getting close, but I need to check the actual visible area on the panel top part as the tip-up canopy will cover up some of it.

G5%20Center%20Panel-X2.jpg

Bjorn,
Excellent decision in moving the G5 and the warning lights. Two minor suggestions which I used in both planes and happy about doing so. I recommend group your switches somewhat by the usage and then by function. In your case, Fuel pump, cowl flap and wigwag/landing lights perhaps as one group which is used during each take off/landing. Of course not everyone use wigwag/LL during take off and landing but for me those are as one group and it is easy for me to look and turn all on at each TO/Landing.
Second suggestion, you might want to bring the ELT switch closer to the middle section. As part of my emergency procedure, if all fails, I will flip the ELT to ON manually. Lastly, if you can spare some space on the panel for the future use, that would be wise. One never know when a new gadget comes along that we want to install and searching for real estate on the panel.

It really looks lovely.
 
Of course, I totally misunderstood the P-Mag wiring. After re-reading the various threads, I think I finally get it:

Wether using a 2- or 3-pos switch:

1. OFF: P-lead grounded (no sparks, aka kill switch)
2. ON: External power ON

then

3. CB pulled or 3rd switch position: External power OFF

I saw a lot of discussion about using CB as switch or not. I guess, it comes down to a personal choice and as the LT-005 from Steinair is available, I going for the 3-pos switch option.

For the power reserve, yes 1 hour will do. I also plan not to have the IBBS powered through the VPX, so there is also the main battery feeding the IBBS, and the optionally, the GTN directly.

Not quite right:
- Off, pMag control grounded (like a mag) so it is off, power is applied from ship power. I do not recommend applying power using the second side of a DPDT switch (as in Off, no power, On power). Power goes away when you open the master(s). This is discussed in the install instructions.
- On, pMag control is not grounded so it is on, power is applied from ship power.
- Test (either pull breaker or switch) pMag control is not grounded so it is on, you momentarily disconnect the pMag from ship power to verify the internal generation is functioning (engine running).

Carl
 
Here's my $3.65 (paper) version of the panel installed.

IMG_0066-X2.jpg


The rest of the week will be used to run through various procedures and making appropriate airplane noises.
 
I recommend group your switches somewhat by the usage and then by function. In your case, Fuel pump, cowl flap and wigwag/landing lights perhaps as one group which is used during each take off/landing.
I must not do enough night flying, because I think the switch layout is grouped by function. Flaps, fuel pump and cowl flaps for take off and landing and enroute going into clouds pitot heat on, strobes off.

How about, from left to right, pitot heat, strobes, nav, landing light, cowl flaps, fuel pump, flaps. Sure would be an odd layout on startup. Bjorn when you are making those airplane sounds, get out the check list and see what switch layout makes the most sense for you.
 
Slider or tip up ?

With a tip up, you can have the canopy eject (rotated 90 degrees) between the EI commander and the compass.
 
Slider or tip up ?

With a tip up, you can have the canopy eject (rotated 90 degrees) between the EI commander and the compass.

I was thinking that at first, but will either just shorten the release pull-rod to the sub panel or use a push pull cable a re-route it away from the panel.
 
I must not do enough night flying, because I think the switch layout is grouped by function. Flaps, fuel pump and cowl flaps for take off and landing and enroute going into clouds pitot heat on, strobes off.

How about, from left to right, pitot heat, strobes, nav, landing light, cowl flaps, fuel pump, flaps. Sure would be an odd layout on startup. Bjorn when you are making those airplane sounds, get out the check list and see what switch layout makes the most sense for you.

My thinking was to map it to how most of the flying is done (VFR). As you see now, I will run through procedures and checklist with the full size mock up.
I was tempted to put the seats in first and have a properly adjusted sitting position/rudder pedals (instead of sitting on pillows):

IMG_0068-XL.jpg
 
You will end up adjusting the AP controller more than the G5 so I would swap the two over as it is easier to turn the knobs at the bottom of the panel.

What software did you use to draw the picture?

Pete
 
You will end up adjusting the AP controller more than the G5 so I would swap the two over as it is easier to turn the knobs at the bottom of the panel.

What software did you use to draw the picture?

Pete

I used LibreCAD an opensource 2D CAD program. Solidworks was way to heavy for my laptop. In addition LibreCAD are available for both MacOS and Windows.
I used the dxf file from Vans as basis and elongated 1/2 inch. GDU cutouts came from Garmin and the rest I just redraw from drawings as a learning experience.
The only thing lacking a little, is a wider range of built in fonts.

Theoretically, I could send it off for CNC cutting, but I consider a draft and will let Steinair make a final version as my plan is for them to do the cutting, paint and labeling.
 
My thinking was to map it to how most of the flying is done (VFR). As you see now, I will run through procedures and checklist with the full size mock up.
I was tempted to put the seats in first and have a properly adjusted sitting position/rudder pedals (instead of sitting on pillows):

IMG_0068-XL.jpg

That is what I did, sit inside and start reaching for switches.
 
What size are the EFIS panels?

10"

These are the GDU 460, the drawings in earlier posts includes Garmin’s DXF files which illustrates the cutout and the frame behind the panel. The unit themselves will be attached to that frame through the panel, like this:
(panel is transparent in drawing).

GDU%20460-XL.jpg
 
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Beware!

Note: If you used the Van's .dxf for the panel layout, note that the Van's drawing is the UNBENT panel blank. The bottom of the panel is about 1" shorter due the the L-bend in the final product.

This bit me, and I had to redo my panel with a Van's blank. My layout wouldn't fit on the supplied panel.

Here's the final product, with +1 inch on the bottom:

i-DSBTrKv-XL.jpg


Looking back, I should have put the engine controls in that bottom 1 inch..
 
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Note: If you used the Van's .dxf for the panel layout, note that the Van's drawing is the UNBENT panel blank. The bottom of the panel is about 1" shorter due the the L-bend in the final product.

This bit me, and I had to redo my panel with a Van's blank. My layout wouldn't fit on the supplied panel.

Here's the final product, with +1 inch on the bottom:

i-DSBTrKv-XL.jpg


Looking back, I should have put the engine controls in that bottom 1 inch..

Yes, you are correct. I am getting it cut by Steinair, so I can have any height.
 
Can you reach the switches on the far left with your right hand when strapped in?

Yes, even with the almost 14 modification, I can cross-reach to the left. I also get 1/3 of the MFD as well.
The left is mostly start and run up and endurance functions.
 
You're getting a lot of opinions, so I'll throw in my 2 cents. First, I think you will love the equipment you are installing. A couple of comments regarding the layout:

1. I would suggest moving the G5 higher. If you try to fly that as a primary instrument in real world conditions, I don't think you will want to be looking down at where it is now. Mine is left where you originally had it and I like it there, but center makes sense too, just higher in your field of view.

2. Give some more thought to the switch layout and think about the flow. The biggest thing I see is the placement of the Master switch being under the Touch display. Your hands will bounce around in turbulence and that's one of the last things you want to inadvertently hit in flight. You may be planning a locking switch, but I would still move it over and up along with the rest of that set.

3. I put my warning lights on a dimmer and they are above the PFD. Full bright at night would be a distraction with mine, but I like them where I may see them first and not my passengers.

4. Lastly, the ELT remote is not something pretty to look at, but you might consider placing it more in view. I have mine where yours is located. One time a passengers accidentally touched the test button and fortunately I heard the beeping from behind the panel and figured out what it was before I took off. Being that far over I couldn't see the light blinking that it had been activated. I got it reset, but not before the signal got to Air Force Rescue! Fortunately with a Bluetooth headset I was able to answer the call and explain everything was fine before they called my wife!:eek:

These are just my thoughts. Have fun with it! It's great to design it exactly as you want!

Mark
 
You're getting a lot of opinions, so I'll throw in my 2 cents. First, I think you will love the equipment you are installing. A couple of comments regarding the layout:

1. I would suggest moving the G5 higher. If you try to fly that as a primary instrument in real world conditions, I don't think you will want to be looking down at where it is now. Mine is left where you originally had it and I like it there, but center makes sense too, just higher in your field of view.

2. Give some more thought to the switch layout and think about the flow. The biggest thing I see is the placement of the Master switch being under the Touch display. Your hands will bounce around in turbulence and that's one of the last things you want to inadvertently hit in flight. You may be planning a locking switch, but I would still move it over and up along with the rest of that set.

3. I put my warning lights on a dimmer and they are above the PFD. Full bright at night would be a distraction with mine, but I like them where I may see them first and not my passengers.

4. Lastly, the ELT remote is not something pretty to look at, but you might consider placing it more in view. I have mine where yours is located. One time a passengers accidentally touched the test button and fortunately I heard the beeping from behind the panel and figured out what it was before I took off. Being that far over I couldn't see the light blinking that it had been activated. I got it reset, but not before the signal got to Air Force Rescue! Fortunately with a Bluetooth headset I was able to answer the call and explain everything was fine before they called my wife!:eek:

These are just my thoughts. Have fun with it! It's great to design it exactly as you want!

Mark

Yes, indeed. A lot of good advice and I changed a few bits as it got me thinking.

1. The G5 is intended as a backup. The suggestion of putting in the center grew on me.

2. I moved the MASTER and the other critical items away from "flapping arms" reach.

3. The warning lights are secondary to the flags on the GDU, but dimming seems like a good idea.

4. The ELT panel was moved earlier to be in easy reach in case of the left seat. So it's now out of reach of passenger.

I also moved the IBBS ON switch close to the VP-X (IBBS is ON during Engine Start).

Latest version:

 
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I think the OP is set on a symmetrical panel. When we redid the panel on our 6 we started with a symmetrical layout but realized that 95% of our flying would be from the left seat and often solo. We put the big screens side by side on the left and the standby D10a on the right. The D10 was more than adequate for anyone flying from the right seat and they had a great view of the mapping on the right hand screen. The PIC in the left seat had a wonderful display setup with both screens right at hand so to speak. One difference was however that we had 8.4? screens but don?t think this changes much.
George
 
I managed to finalize my layout and get the panel cut, painted and engraved (Steinair).

I also managed to use all my savings money on avionics, sans GTN-650, as if I knew GTN-650XI would come (which I didn't, I just ran out of cash and got the GTN mounting bracket only).
I was fun though to unpack and inventory everything except GTN-650 only to wake up this morning to find out about the 6xx Xi series....

Of course I had to test the fit:
2020010813373102-2187156217412515154-IMG_0446_heic-L.jpg


The engraving is great:
(this also showcases the color better, which I been told is Grey SA 260.25 )
2020010813373102-1859155430721753869-IMG_0447_heic-L.jpg
 
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