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Brake hoses

Ron B.

Well Known Member
Has anyone switched their hoses to ss Teflon lined hoses and if so do you have the measurements?
Ron
 
Ron---Steve and I are working with a beta tester right now on RV14 teflon hoses. We should have some details shortly.
Tom
 
Ron,

As one of the early adopters of Tom's product on the RV-10, he'll treat you right. Even if he doesn't have production units ready, Tom is great at one off customizations.

bob
 
well- I dont see why not. Valves are available from Vans and others. The initial hose routings didnt include a valve. I didnt see anything on the plans, but certainly there could be a place and the output hoses modified to accommodate the valve. The hose package is being developed with -3 hoses. There will be more on this later!
Tom
 
Our beta tester should have the last few hoses today. We will then be complete with the cabin brake hose setup for the -a model.

We also have a beta tester waiting to test out the tailwheel version hoses as soon as the nose wheel version is finalized.

We also have cabin fuel lines almost done. We are going to be doing something different with these. They will be a combination of flex lines and also CNC bent rigid tubing. This allows us to provide the most cost efficient and lightweight package. We are upgrading all the rigid tubing to a much higher quality aluminum than 3003.

Tom and I will post some updates once it is all finalized.
Steve
 
The cabin brake lines supplied by Vans do work. They are light and cheap. However in my experience I have had some minor leaks in the cabin, most likely due to some error I have made. However with properly manufactured aircraft hoses this had not been an issue for me thus my preference. They are heavier and obviously more expensive.
I am sure you will get lots of opinions on this issue, I absolutely hate oil on the cabin floor. (not to mention a brake that does not work)
 
brake fire

Once you have experienced a brake fire because the nyloseal, or whatever plastic brake lines are installed, have ruptured due to high heat in the wheel pant, you will never again use anything but stainless braided lines for brakes. I watched my Pitts beautiful new carbon fibre wheel pant burning away after fire broke out, the brake pedal went to the floor, and I was lucky to have a bottle of water with me that barely extinguished it. This was after a long taxi on a very hot day and illustrates how hot it can get inside a wheel pant. :cool:
 
probably very little cooling air in the wheel pants, brake heat transfered to the disc, the pads, the caliper, the hose--oops--yep will leak.
Ever watch a NASCAR race at Richmond at nite? We certainly dont do that, the it really doesnt take much brake drag to heat things up. Maybe I'll test mine when the time comes.
Tom
 
I don't have any pics quite ready for posting, but I have fit all of the hoses (I'm one of the 2 beta testers mentioned) for the cabin except for one.

I will follow up with some photos soon, but I'll give you some info now.

Van's did a pretty good job on lengths. The hose lengths we are using are similar but adjusted slightly for the use of AN fittings rather than the brass compression fittings. We also reworked the firewall hoses a little to provide a little better hose routing. Right now the "A" model hoses are pretty much a known thing, and only a couple different hoses are needed for the non-A. So I'd think it shouldn't be too long until you can get Teflon lines for brakes.
Personally, I built an RV-10 and started with plastic, but switched to teflon with braided stainless and anti-chafe cover along the way. There were people that had the hard lines down the gear leg fail, so I went braided there right away. I wouldn't sacrifice on that area at all. On the RV-10, they used plastic everywhere except the final Left side pedals to brakes. There Van's sent braided hoses. They were thicker hoses than what I went to later though. So that seems to indicate to me that where you really want to trust your hoses, you would go braided. To me, trusting an expensive airplane to plastic hose just doesn't seem right. Braided should last the life of the airframe. One thing to make note of too....don't just use the non-synthetic brake fluid, buy a can of the synthetic that has a higher ignition point. I have had friends with RV's with fires in their wheels before. Just do it right from the beginning and you'll have less to worry about.

For the fuel hoses, I would prefer to keep flow rates up and weight down too. I do not like the aluminum tube that is supplied with the kit though, and much prefer the 5052-O aluminum. So in places that work well for hard lines, I'm going hard lines. But, one line I would prefer to have as flex is the line from pump to firewall. That line would be much easier to compromise in any type of accident. I'd rather have a flex line there so you don't risk an aluminum line, potentially being fed by a pressured fuel pump, pushing fuel into the plane. So that < 1ft hose is flex. I'll have some pics soon for you.

At any rate, the people who say light is good, are right. But the people who say strong and reliable lines are good, are also right. I think the hoses that Steve and Tom are putting together for the 14 kit should be a great way to try to satisfy both things as good as possible.

I have pics now, but since on the forum you have to link to them on the web, and they're not ready on my site, we have a slight delay until I get time.

Regarding the parking brake question, I don't see that as a problem. It will probably require a custom hose length but should be easy to determine. You could mount the valve, and install a plastic line, and give these guys the approximate length and probably hit it pretty close on your first try. If you put AN fittings on, and measured the flare tip to flare tip length of line required, you could get it right for sure the first time. So if you want a parking brake, I'd just start planning for it. The thing on the RV-14 I have noticed is the actual stainless firewall is VERY flimsy. I don't remember it being that flimsy on the RV-10. So when it comes to mounting a parking brake, you will want to use a doubler just like the starter solenoid uses a doubler. Also, if you plan to use a throttle quadrant as I do, you may want to be careful of where you place a valve, so that it doesn't interfere with the future plans for a quadrant. I wish I could hear an update from Van's regarding if they've decided to for sure do a quadrant, because I'm already working on the panel now, and I'm sure that adding a quadrant is going to require a slight modification. I know I for one am NOT going to have a fuse block on the vertical support, but use some circuit breakers and have a sub-panel based fuse block. But I am very much hoping to see their quadrant integration plans sooner rather than later. Pretty soon I'm going to just have to wing it and do the mods myself.

Sorry, that drifted off topic. But, for you RV-14 builders, don't stress too much about the brake and fuel lines just yet. If you want some great lines, in a great package, these guys are going to have them ready for you and you can just skip right over those plans sections for the most part for now. Once they're ready you should be able to just order the whole pile of stuff and it will take almost no time to install. Last night I had all my brake lines installed within about 30-45 minutes. Fuel lines will take even less time.

Tim
 
Pics

As promised:

RV14150122-171428-132p.jpg

RV14150122-175906-140p.jpg

RV14150122-175916-141p.jpg

RV14150122-175935-142p.jpg

RV14150123-180427-144p.jpg

RV14150123-180437-145p.jpg
 
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Tim , I was studying your web site and the pic last evening, looks good. I'm planning on the Teflon hoses as well.
 
Tim,

Thanks for posting all the great pictures showing this beta setup.

Tom (TS Flightlines) and I have been working with Tim on finalizing the package for the RV-14 and we are very excited about how it is turning out.

We have one rigid tube left to test fit, but it is a mirror image of the other one which fit in perfectly, so I don't anticipate any problems with that.

Once we have that information, we have a -14 tail wheel builder lined up to do a package test fit on. We will also make the necessary hose adjustments for that aircraft. We are planning on sending hoses to him in 3-4 weeks. We will await test fitting on that aircraft and feedback.

While we don't yet have a release date for the complete package, it will basically consist of two main components. There will be a brake line setup, and a cabin fuel line setup. The cabin fuel lines will consist of 3 rigid tubes and one flex hose. The brake setup with be all brake hoses plus the AN fittings to attach them.

Tom and I will make a joint announcement when we have the package and components finalized. We do not yet have pricing information available, as we have been completely focused on getting this package perfect.

This is a really exciting project for us, because it marks the first time where we are utilizing not only the extremely high quality flex lines, but also custom cnc bent rigid tubes.

Have a great week, and Happy building,

Steve
 
Tom and I just wanted to send a quick update.

Beta test fitting of this package is going great. So far, we have completed 3 aircraft. 2 people opted to have the complete package, and one is just doing the fuel lines for now. We have also tested both the A model and the tailwheel version, so we have the dimensions for both of these.

We are getting ready to work with a 4th and final beta tester. The RV-14 pedals can be moved forward and aft, and both of our initial beta testers have theirs moved all the way aft at the moment. We are working with a 4th aircraft to make slight changes to 2 hose lengths to be able to make the F14116A-L and A-R customizable based on the pedal position you choose. Yes, I know it is nit picky. But for those of you that know Tom and I, you know that we have a sometimes obsessive attention to detail.

So, the good news is that the package is all but done. As far as pricing goes, we are still working on it. However, preliminary numbers are as follows:

1. The RV-14A kit will be $749.95 for a complete set of hoses AND AN fittings required to put it together. This will include a total of 6 coated teflon brake hoses, 1 braided flex fuel hose, and 3 rigid tube fuel lines. In addition, it will include about $90-100 of AN fittings that are required to make the package work. If you already have the fittings, we will also offer the kit without them at a discounted rate.

2. The tailwheel version of this package will be $50 less due to the shorter lines.

3. We will also offer a fuel only package, which will be $229.95. It will include the three rigid tubes and the flex hose from the pump to the firewall.

This package will be built to order as it utilizes a fair amount of fittings and raw materials, and with our ever growing line up of products, we don't keep package on the shelf anymore so we don't run into fitting shortages.

However, the lead time on these packages will be between 1 and 2 weeks from order placement to shipment.

If anyone has any questions, please feel free to contact me at [email protected], or to contact Tom at [email protected].

We will make an official announcement when they are available for sale. In addition, we are working on a simplified installation manual that will include some general pictures and kit information.

Have a great weekend, and happy building
Steve and Tom
 
I just wanted to give everyone an update on this project.

The beta test program is complete. Tom and I have all the dimensions, and we have been receiving good comments from those who have installed the package.

Currently we have between 8 and 10 of these kits installed in a variety of -14 and -14A models.

If you go to http://www.aircraftspecialty.com/rvproducts.html, you will find more information under the RV-14 section. You will also notice that we do not currently have an order form online.

We are awaiting more data on the finish kit as we would like to also offer lines down the gear legs, and do not yet have those dimensions. In addition, we are working on some data regarding parking brake installations to try to offer that as part of the complete package also. Given the delays in the finish kit, we have been waiting as patiently as everyone else in order to get more information.

As always, happy building, and let Tom or I know if we can answer any questions for you. Thank you all for your support and allowing us to earn your business.
 
I just wanted to do a quick followup to Steve's post. The RV14 project has been fun. WE learned alot about a few little minor details in using the CNC tube bender. Steve is currently bending 3/8, 5052-O, and 6061T6, and we have plans to do some 304 stainless that I've been doing.
Because the bender is so repeatable, we are going to start making alot of the rigid tubes that I've been doing at my shop. The bender, along with the CNC Lathe, make this fun again. We actually get to spend time dreaming up stuff. WE are not replacing our stainless braid teflon business, but the rigid tube part is a complementary option to hose. WE have several rigid tube options in the works for RV7/9 builders, and after that we'll start (again) on the RV8 stuff.

Tom
 
I just wanted to give another update about the RV-14 project. We are awaiting pictures of the parking brake setup that is currently being installed in one of our customers' aircraft for beta testing.

Also, we are working with another builder on rigid tube assemblies for an Andair duplex valve setup. Like the other rigid tube drop in assemblies that we have developed for the -14, these will also drop right into place.

We are awaiting the first finish kits to be delivered like everyone else so that we can continue work on gear leg hoses.

Happy building,
Steve
 
I've been busy with painting, but did get my Aircraft Specialty brake lines installed this weekend. All lines fit perfectly, thank you Steve. If I had to add or subtract an inch I don't know which way I would go, could not have asked for better. I forgot to exchange the o-rings in the master cylinders for the 782 brake fluid so the lines are temporary installed on the masters at this time. I did change out the rings in the parking brake. Anybody have the o-ring sizes for the Matco master cylinders in the RV-14A kits?
I sent Steve a few shots of my park brake install, perhaps he could post them here. I plan on sending him some final pictures when I finish the installation.
Ron
 
I've been busy with painting, but did get my Aircraft Specialty brake lines installed this weekend. All lines fit perfectly, thank you Steve. If I had to add or subtract an inch I don't know which way I would go, could not have asked for better. I forgot to exchange the o-rings in the master cylinders for the 782 brake fluid so the lines are temporary installed on the masters at this time. I did change out the rings in the parking brake. Anybody have the o-ring sizes for the Matco master cylinders in the RV-14A kits?
I sent Steve a few shots of my park brake install, perhaps he could post them here. I plan on sending him some final pictures when I finish the installation.
Ron

Ron and All.....

Tom and I are very excited about the RV-14 project. Here are some pictures of Ron's parking brake installation. This completes our dimension database for the 14A model.

Pbrake 1.jpg


Pbrake2.jpg
 
While we are awaiting the first finish kits to be sent out so that we can continue on with more aspects of this project, we have also been working on some other neat prototypes.

We are working with a beta tester to finalize hoses for the Tailwheel version WITH a parking brake. And, here is a little sneak peak of the rigid tubes for his plane. We prototyped a rigid tube installation for a duplex Andair valve for those builders that choose to go this route.

When we eventually get caught up, we plan on uploading some videos of the processes to make these products for interested builders.

Duplex complete.jpg


Duplex 1.jpg


Duplex 2.jpg


Duplex 3.jpg



Happy building and we look forward to continuing to work with everyone!!!
 
Followup post

We are also working on the IO390 hose package. Starting out this will be like the prototype RV14A, and hopefully be a drop in install.
Of course, some of you will be using a slightly different engine, maybe even one of Kevin R series engines. Plumbing these will be custom, but the same teflon hoses we provide in our other packages.
As soon as we get some data, we will make some prototypes to send to our great beta testers. Guys---without your support, we couldnt do this.
Thank you!
 
Brake Lines for RV-14A

The braided teflon brake lines for the RV-14 A model are done now. Steve from Aircraft Specialty worked hard for this one. We did a few revisions to get it just right. The issue is, you don't want anything causing the brake caliper to be pushed into the disc, and you don't want it twisted so that it wears one side of the pad against the disc all the time. We tried a simple line coming from the fuselage to the caliper and it just didn't allow the flexibility for the caliper, especially after the pads wear down. So we decided to do the same loop around the axle as the standard aluminum lines would take. I did the same thing on my RV-10 way back in the day, when I did teflon lines. Here are some pictures for you. You can get a hold of Steve for more info on how you can get them. There are a few more pics on my site as well.


BrakeLines-001.jpg


BrakeLines-002.jpg


BrakeLines-003.jpg


BrakeLines-004.jpg
 
First off, I wanted to give a big thank you to Tim Olson for helping us out with the beta test of these lines. We went through several iterations as he mentioned to make sure that we got it just right.

We are currently finalizing pricing for that package. It is going to be a complete ready to install kit, including the braided hoses, An fittings required (we went to a -3 size hose for compactness, weight and flexibility), and also the adel clamps and hardware to secure everything. The only thing that will be left to the builder is the securing of the lines to the gear legs.

As of right now, we are planning on offering this kit as a braided kit with the clear anti abrasion covering. We may also offer it without the anti abrasion coating for a reduced cost. However, based on experience with other packages, the vast majority of customers have opted for the clear coated hoses to protect them from rubbing up against the gear legs.

Tom and I will have all this information fairly soon.

Have a great weekend
Steve
 
We have been adding to available options on these hose kits. The following are now available.

1. 14/14A Cabin Kit No PB
2. 14/14A Cabin Kit PB
3. 14/14A Gear Leg hoses
4. 14/14A Beringer No PB
5. 14/14A Beringer with PB
6. 14/14A Beringer PB and Anti Skid Valve
7. Optional PB cable mount that attached to either Beringer or Matco PB Valve.
 
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