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Barrel rolls.

donaziza

Well Known Member
There's another post here on doing decent aileron rolls. I'm gonna try em tomorrow. (Feet off the rudder pedals, but most importantly, no back stick, keep your hand open. Can someone walk me thru how to do a decent barrel roll? Mine are terrible, especially to the right. A lotta times, when I do them to the right, I pretty much go almost straight down. My left ones are better. I'm pulling back on the stick, while rolling say to the left, and then coming out so so, mostly not a very great so so.:(:mad: Don't know if I should be using rudders or not. I learned them 55 years ago in a T 28, but they were pretty bad then too. Supossed to be a great move for getting on the enemy's 6, so he hopefully flies by you while you're manuvering vertically.

Help:rolleyes:
 
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Technique

Reading your post, I'm not so sure you have a good picture of what a "good" barrel roll should look like.
Think back to your T-28 days. Just like a good pattern, you need some check points to hit to make it all work out right. This is how I taught hundreds of young naval aviators how to do a barrel roll.

Start on a good lead in line, clear your airspace, then start the nose up as you start the roll. Aim for 45 degrees off heading, 45 degrees nose up, 45 degrees angle of bank (AOB). 90 off, 90 AOB, nose slicing the horizon.

Keep the roll rate constant and hit the 45 low, 45 off and 135 AOB. Aquire the lead line and work out the end of the roll to be wings level, nose on the horizon on the lead in line.

A good roll should end up back on heading, altitude and airspeed.

This should be done mostly outside, with an occasional glance inside to check your AOB.
Rudders should be used to maintain coordinated flight, not to "get your nose around" or whatever.

If you find yourself burying the nose coming through inverted, try speeding up your roll rate a bit. My experience teaching was with jets, and your plane may accel/decel differently, but if you hit the numbers, you'll do a good barrel roll.

Good luck and have fun!
 
I disagee that a good aileron roll is done with your feet on the floor, but you can definitely do that if you're just getting started and want to simplify things for the ol' brain to manage. And I hope you pitch up a bit first. ;)

But a barrel roll has few standards other than hopefully having the same entry/exit altitudes. The positive G "aileron" rolls that most RVs pilots do are actually tight barrel rolls (corkscrew flight path). How much heading displacement you achieve is up to you, but the biggest mistake folks make is not reaching the highest point of the roll before completing half of the roll. If you've reached the point where you're descending before reaching wings level inverted, you're going to exit fast and off heading. Use the rudder simply to counter the slight bit of adverse yaw from the ailerons. Reach the apex of the "barrel" and the inverted attitude simultaneously.

If you're pulling throughout the roll with a large heading displacement (up to 90 degrees on top), you'll want to unload a little back pressure and float over the top just the same as you'd do for a loop, which is basically what this is- combined loop and roll.

Competition acro on occasion still sees the quarter clover done in Sportsman, which is a half barrel roll, either up or down. You could aim for some precision standards by combining the two quarter clovers. The idea is to roll with a constant roll rate, a round 'looping segment, evenly integrate the rolling/pitching (not doing any rolling without pitching and vice versa), and hit your 90 degree heading on top simultaneously with reaching wings level inverted. Same idea on the way back down - keep the roll/pitch integration going and reach your original entry heading simultaneous with rolling wings level upright at the same altitude you started.

But most folks who do barrel rolls for fun don't put that much effort into them, and use somewhat less heading displacement on top.
 
Reach the apex of the "barrel" and the inverted attitude simultaneously.

unload a little back pressure and float over the top just the same as you'd do for a loop, which is basically what this is- combined loop and roll.

I have found these two points to be key in doing a symmetrical barrel roll
 
I swear I'm doing exactly what all 3 of you guys are saying. BUT---I will print all 3 of your answers, study as much as I can, and then even take them up with me, and read them again, just before I try em. (My instructor 55 years ago, was Navy, but I think all of them just figured, if you could sorta do it, it was good enough.) I watch that military history channel all the time, and they always imply, a barrel roll was one of the best ways to get a zero, to shoot past you, and thus become the target vs the predator. Seemed to work pretty good in Vietnam also with F-8's and F-4's.
 
This is a great old video on barrel rolls. Notice how he used the road intersection to hit the cardinal points of the roll.

In addition, a lot of folks say the nose should scribe a circle around a feature on the horizon 45 degrees from entry heading in the direction of the roll.

https://vimeo.com/371406144
 
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Eric, disregard where I told you to go for "feet flat on the floor". I sent you to the wrong thread. Its here instead

Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,437
Default
Here?s how I did my first few rolls, trying to do as Van advised in an early version of the RVator.....

At 140-150 KIAS level flight, maintaining your power setting throughout, pull the nose up to 30* nose up. Let go of the back pressure for a couple seconds, wings level (the nose will stay there, briefly), then just push the stick to the left (or right) with your feet flat on the floor. Don?t push or pull on the stick, don?t use your rudder, just apply aileron movement. Watch the world go around, and when you come out at the end of it, you should be about where you were when you started. Your nose will be pitched down maybe 15*, but your airspeed won?t be excessive, and you can recover to level flight without much G force. You might notice a little wallowing on the top because your airspeed is decaying, and you aren?t using your feet, but there is very little adverse aileron yaw in these airplanes, so until you get comfortable, don?t worry about using rudder input. A little later, rudder input will make the roll a little quicker and crisper, but it is just as fun to do it the way I suggested.
__________________
 
This is a great old video on barrel rolls. Notice how he used the road intersection to hit the cardinal points of the roll.

In addition, a lot of folks say the nose should scribe a circle around a feature on the horizon 45 degrees from entry heading in the direction of the roll.

https://vimeo.com/371406144

That is a good video. Thanks for posting that.
 
I watch that military history channel all the time, and they always imply, a barrel roll was one of the best ways to get a zero, to shoot past you, and thus become the target vs the predator. Seemed to work pretty good in Vietnam also with F-8's and F-4's.

A true barrel roll is pretty easy to follow. You are probably referring to a high G barrel roll which is really a last ditch maneuver designed to break a tracking solution. Zeros and MIGs are more lightly wing loaded than F-8s and F-4s so a close-in turning fight should be avoided. One pass, haul a** worked well!
 
From a RV-3 non-aerobatic pilot's perspective:

Start at 140 - 160 mph level.
Rudder neutral.
Pull back on the stick until it looks like you're at a 45 angle (probably more like 15 to 30 degrees in actuality).
Release back pressure -- neutral elevator.
Briskly but smoothly move the stick all the way to the left (or right).
Probably a novices biggest mistake is being hesitant about quickly moving the stick all the way to the left (or right).
Wait till the horizon is coming around and move the stick back to neutral to roll out to level.

Yes, rolls to the right are a bit harder, going against the torque of the prop.

When you have done this until you can easily see what's happening, you can start refining it.

A bit of rudder helps when rolling out.

Lower entry speeds -- the lower the entry speed the higher the nose have to be before applying aileron.

Rudder to assist keeping altitude in slower rolls.

I'm sure my "rolls" are not pretty from the ground -- but fun in the cockpit.

High entry speed and nose really high if you want the horizon to come around three times and not roll out in a dive :)

Finn
 
From a RV-3 non-aerobatic pilot's perspective:

Start at 140 - 160 mph level.
Rudder neutral.
Pull back on the stick until it looks like you're at a 45 angle (probably more like 15 to 30 degrees in actuality).
Release back pressure -- neutral elevator.
Briskly but smoothly move the stick all the way to the left (or right).
Probably a novices biggest mistake is being hesitant about quickly moving the stick all the way to the left (or right).
Wait till the horizon is coming around and move the stick back to neutral to roll out to level.

Yes, rolls to the right are a bit harder, going against the torque of the prop.

When you have done this until you can easily see what's happening, you can start refining it.

A bit of rudder helps when rolling out.

Lower entry speeds -- the lower the entry speed the higher the nose have to be before applying aileron.

Rudder to assist keeping altitude in slower rolls.

I'm sure my "rolls" are not pretty from the ground -- but fun in the cockpit.

High entry speed and nose really high if you want the horizon to come around three times and not roll out in a dive :)

Finn

This is how you do BARREL ROLLS?
 
Pull back on the stick until it looks like you're at a 45 angle (probably more like 15 to 30 degrees in actuality).
Release back pressure -- neutral elevator.
Briskly but smoothly move the stick all the way to the left (or right).



Hi Finn, With all due respect sir, and maybe I'm all wet here---but this pretty much seems like a great way to enter a spin. Especially that part "Briskly, but smoothly move the stick all the way to the left":confused::confused:
 
Hi Finn, With all due respect sir, and maybe I'm all wet here---but this pretty much seems like a great way to enter a spin. Especially that part "Briskly, but smoothly move the stick all the way to the left":confused::confused:

Well... to dry off, you're gonna have to explain how to enter a spin with neutral elevator and your feet on the floor. :)
 
ROLLS

For many years a horizontal roll on the longitudinal axis was called a slow roll. Some at IAC decided to rename this aileron roll.
Prior to that the term aileron roll was used to describe a Bob Hoover style roll with positive G thru out. There are two styles of barrel rolls. In the military a barrel roll was sort of a combination roll/loop maneuver with the aircraft changing heading 45 degrees. The IAC barrel roll was an invention of IAC. IIRC the nose described an arc around a point 22.5 degrees from the starting point.
It just came to me that the era of the IAC barrel roll was some 40 years ago.
 
Barrel Roll Tip

I was taught that when performing a real barrel roll for fun (not a ~1g aileron roll referred to as a barrel roll) it helps tremendously to cheat a little and get the nose well above the horizon before starting the roll. A couple of mistakes that I think result in "dishing out" are 1. Rolling at too high of a roll rate during the first 1/4 of the roll when the airspeed is high, 2. Not unloading in pitch sufficiently when rolling past 60-70 degrees of bank.

Here is my version of the barrel roll:

Barrel Roll Video

Skylor
 
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There's another post here on doing decent aileron rolls. I'm gonna try em tomorrow. (Feet off the rudder pedals, but most importantly, no back stick, keep your hand open. Can someone walk me thru how to do a decent barrel roll? Mine are terrible, especially to the right. A lotta times, when I do them to the right, I pretty much go almost straight down. My left ones are better. I'm pulling back on the stick, while rolling say to the left, and then coming out so so, mostly not a very great so so.:(:mad: Don't know if I should be using rudders or not. I learned them 55 years ago in a T 28, but they were pretty bad then too. Supossed to be a great move for getting on the enemy's 6, so he hopefully flies by you while you're manuvering vertically.

Help:rolleyes:

So I'm a little late to the party, but I copied this straight from a reg we use at work. The numbers of course for the RV are going to be different, but the description should at least help explain what you should be doing while flying the maneuver.

"4.36. Barrel Roll:

4.36.1. Pre-proficiency entry parameters are 400 KIAS using 95 percent rpm. Post-proficiency entry parameters are 300 to 500 KIAS, using 90 percent rpm - MIL power.

4.36.2. The barrel roll is a coordinated roll in any direction in which the nose of the aircraft describes a circle around a point. Choose a point on or slightly above the horizon and maneuver the aircraft to attain entry parameters in a wings-level attitude with the aircraft 30 to 45 degrees to the side of the selected point. Begin a rolling pull in the desired direction and use smooth control inputs to maintain a circular flightpath around the reference point. You should be (1) in 90 degrees of bank directly above the selected reference point, (2) in a wings-level inverted attitude when passing abeam the reference point at 180 degrees of roll, (3) in 90 degrees of bank directly below the selected reference point, and (4) in a wings-level upright attitude when completing the maneuver.

4.36.3. Another technique is to begin the maneuver by choosing a desired roll axis from which the barrel roll will be flown. Offset this roll axis the number of degrees that defines the size of the roll (normally 30 to 45 degrees). Pick a point on the horizon twice the degrees of the offset in the desired direction of the roll. For example, if selecting a 45-degree offset, pick a point 90 degrees off the nose.

4.36.4. Begin a coordinated roll and pull to fly the nose of the aircraft to be inverted at the point. Continue the coordinated roll or pull to fly the aircraft back to the original offset heading. You should be at 90 degrees of bank as the nose of the aircraft passes the original roll axis (both on the first and second half of the roll), and the degrees nose high and low at these points are defined by the number of degrees of the original offset. The ending airspeed should be approximately the same as the entry air-speed for a symmetrically flown maneuver, but symmetry is more important than finishing at entry airspeed..

4.36.5. Maintain positive G-loading throughout the roll. To gain energy, use higher power settings and/or light G-loading.

4.36.6. A barrel roll will require a forward distance of approximately 3 nm and 4,000 to 8,000 feet above."

Hopefully this helps!
 
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