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Grove upgrade?

Mjjstang

I'm New Here
Was looking over the order form today and noticed something I don't recall seeing before. Couldn't find much on it. There is an option on the finish kit for "Upgrade to Grove Wheel/Brake Set: Premium wheels and brakes $785.00". Is this new?
 
Yes, we've offered it on SLSA aircraft for a bit and it's now available for the RV-12iS ELSA kits as well. We will publish the relevant updated RV-12iS plans/KAI sections probably on Tuesday in the service information are of the web site.
 
What are the advantages of the Grove wheels/brakes? How much lighter are they compared to the standard wheels/brakes? Since Vans chose Grove for their RV-12iST trainer, I’m assuming they hold up better in a flight school environment. How does that translate into what a typical owner can expect? Other than perhaps longer brake pad life, are there compelling reasons to go with the Grove package?
 
What are the advantages of the Grove wheels/brakes? How much lighter are they compared to the standard wheels/brakes? Since Vans chose Grove for their RV-12iST trainer, I’m assuming they hold up better in a flight school environment. How does that translate into what a typical owner can expect? Other than perhaps longer brake pad life, are there compelling reasons to go with the Grove package?

Projected longer brake life, and braking action that is same to better. As you inferred, it's useful for flight schools from a brake-longevity perspective.

Service Letter forthcoming within the next 24 hours, plus purchasable kits for people who want to install them, and I posted the new plans pages today. When we formally announce I will create a new thread in the RV-12 VAF forum, as well.

I'll see if I can get the approx. weight differences, too.
 
Don’t blast me, I’m just thinking out loud;

If you are REALLY hard on the Matco brakes you might replace them every year. Assuming the average pilot flies 100 hrs / year that’s 20 brake pads in 2000 hours of flying / 20 years.

For my use I expect 200 hours out of a set of pads. So cut all these numbers in half.

The Matco reline kit is about $50 with shipping ready to install.
For 20 pad replacements, (remember this scenario is an extreme brake user), you would spend $1000.

The Grove upgrade is $1485 and that is before any pad replacements.

Where is the payoff? Better braking, maybe, but the tires are going to be the weak link. Lighter maybe, haven’t heard that number yet.
 
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Where is the payoff? Better braking, maybe, but the tires are going to be the weak link. Lighter maybe, haven’t heard that number yet.

Lower weight - I think about 2.5 lbs... Edit/correction - I was going from memory and the 2.5 lbs is about what the weight Delta is between the magnesium and aluminum versions of the Grove wheel/brake set. The actual weight Delta between the Matco and the optional Grove wheel/brake set for the RV-12iS is zero.

Easier to change tires.

Less fussy for brake caliper alignment / adjustment (basically none required for Grove - Matco can be fussy at times).

Longer brake life - Not just the pads... the Matco disks seem to wear quite a bit faster than the Grove. You wont get 2000 hrs out of a set of brake disks and they are quite a bit more expensive than brake pads are.

As already mentioned, the option was originally offered just on the SLSA for the benefit of flight schools because longer brake life and reduced maint. times are financially beneficial.

I don't know whether I would spend the money on an already flying airplane, but I probably wouldn't think twice about selecting the upgrade while doing a new build.
 
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In my early college days, I changed out thousands of automobile and truck tires to pay for my college tuition and books. I've changed out a lot of flat tires on my mountain bikes also.

I've changed out the 2 mains on my RV-12 that was still on the original tires with 190 + hours, on those Matco rims, as soon as it made it to it's new home. Worst set of split rim setups that I've ever had to deal with, in terms of disassembly and removal of every nut and bolt., and unbelievably time consuming.

I am really kind of at a loss why they haven't gone tubeless on tires and rims yet on plane tires, other than the rims are magnesium or aluminum, and wouldn't handle tire iron usage very well with those 6 ply tires.

I might be tempted to get the new rims, and disc and brakes, if the design is better. The weight savings is kind of a non issue, for me.
 
Yes, we've offered it on SLSA aircraft for a bit and it's now available for the RV-12iS ELSA kits as well. We will publish the relevant updated RV-12iS plans/KAI sections probably on Tuesday in the service information are of the web site.

Is there any chance that Van's will offer this option on the other non-LSA aircraft? [i.e.:-7(A), -8(A), -9(A)]

I know I can delete brakes and buy what I want on the OPEN market but typically Van's can get a better price. Van's typically does an excellent job on going with best value lowest weight compromise. (most bang for the money)
 
I am really kind of at a loss why they haven't gone tubeless on tires and rims yet on plane tires, other than the rims are magnesium or aluminum, and wouldn't handle tire iron usage very well with those 6 ply tires.

Slightly off topic, sorry.

I am just taking a guess at this.
Our tires run low pressure in comparison to other applications. The tires move in in relation to the wheel during drop in landings, crabbed landings, etc. I think under these conditions a tubeless tire would break the bead.
The reason we use excessive talc during mounting is to reduce wear on the tube caused by the relative movement, tube to tire, that results from the above conditions.
 
I had tubeless tiers on my Aventura HP. They kept developing slow leaks. Finally started using tubes and that solved the problem. Soured me forever on tubeless aircraft tires.
 
this might be a silly question.. but im younger than most of you all.. and tube tires are a completely new concept to me..

it feels like my rv12 .. and my old rv6 tires don’t hold air as good as my car tires do. is this normal? or do i have bad luck with airplane tires? or are these smaller tires more susceptible to ambient temperature changes?
 
I have Tire Pressure Monitors (TPM) on my main wheels and use MICHELIN AIRSTOP tubes which hold air very well. I monitor air pressure as part of my pre-flight check and notice fluctuations in pressure mainly due to ambient temperature.

 
this might be a silly question.. but im younger than most of you all.. and tube tires are a completely new concept to me..

it feels like my rv12 .. and my old rv6 tires don’t hold air as good as my car tires do. is this normal? or do i have bad luck with airplane tires? or are these smaller tires more susceptible to ambient temperature changes?

It is the rubber used in the aircraft tubes that are leaking air and is normal.

There are tubes available that do NOT leak but they can be expensive.
 
Jim,

You must be an engineer if you are that anal about tire pressure!😝

Well as a freshman I argued with classmates over the value of Pi, so I guess I can’t throw stones!😜

Rich
 
Tire Pressure Monitors

I have Tire Pressure Monitors (TPM) on my main wheels and use MICHELIN AIRSTOP tubes which hold air very well. I monitor air pressure as part of my pre-flight check and notice fluctuations in pressure mainly due to ambient temperature.

Tell me about your tire pressure monitors. They sound interesting.
 
Lower weight - I think about 2.5 lbs... Edit/correction - I was going from memory and the 2.5 lbs is about what the weight Delta is between the magnesium and aluminum versions of the Grove wheel/brake set. The actual weight Delta between the Matco and the optional Grove wheel/brake set for the RV-12iS is zero.

Easier to change tires.

Less fussy for brake caliper alignment / adjustment (basically none required for Grove - Matco can be fussy at times).

Longer brake life - Not just the pads... the Matco disks seem to wear quite a bit faster than the Grove. You wont get 2000 hrs out of a set of brake disks and they are quite a bit more expensive than brake pads are.

As already mentioned, the option was originally offered just on the SLSA for the benefit of flight schools because longer brake life and reduced maint. times are financially beneficial.

I don't know whether I would spend the money on an already flying airplane, but I probably wouldn't think twice about selecting the upgrade while doing a new build.

I have a question about the Grove upgrade as I'm preparing my finish kit order. When I look at the Van's store page and description of the brake upgrade I see there are separate kits for with or without wheel pants. Are you able to elaborate any more on the difference between the two configurations?

I may not order wheel pants with my finish kit but it's likely that I will decide some time after I'm flying that I want to add them and will order then if that's the case. Is there some critical difference between the two setups? If I want to do wheel pants later but order the finish kit with upgraded brakes is that something I'll need to add a note about on the order?
 
Thought I would bump this thread in hopes of getting some commentary on my question above. My finish kit order is in so the clock is ticking for me if I need to make any changes. I know I can call Van's and ask about this and I likely will, but an answer here might be helpful to others.
 
I asked Van’s this question and received a bill of materials for the two options which I suppose technically answered the question, but still not sure what would need to be changed out if I add wheel pants in the future.
 

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I think the only difference is that the "with wheel pants" hardware supplies a bracket for each side that get installed on the inboard side of the gear leg while mounting the axle, and a different axle that provides a mounting point for the outboard side of the wheel pant, that wouldn't be there otherwise.

So you would be flying around with a small amount of additional weight, and would have stubs sticking out approx. 2" from the outboard side of each wheel, but you wouldn't have to disassemble anything if you decided to add wheel pants later.
 
Ordering the brakes tomorrow and still don't know why Grove cost more and would be worth the cost after reading this thread. There's no weight savings, right? In my RV8 I never had an issue wearing out break pads faster than the norm but I forgot what I had (I thought I was Cleveland but probably am misremembering).

There's no pictures of the competing products side by side in this thread to assist. Anyone have anything further to add to the reason why Groves are soundly worth it?
 
Personally I think Grove makes a much better wheel/brake/master cyl Assy than Matco. I believe they also offer a tubeless rim now as well.
 
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