What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Beating the airlines

Ed_Wischmeyer

Well Known Member
So I got through ORD security 90+ minutes before scheduled departure. That was the last thing that went right. We pushed back on time and waited ten minutes for taxi clearance. Uh, oh.

Due to thunderstorms, south departures were closed and we were #6,420 for departure to the east. Then the thunderstorms had moved on, they closed the east departures and reopened the south. We got rerouted but were behind four planes that had shut down, wiring for their new clearances.

By this time, we?d taxied so much that we needed to refuel and the flight crew had timed out. The found a captain and flight attendants okay, but not an FO.

Granted, I couldn?t make it all the way today but we?re pushing back nearly six hours late. Flying time in the RV-9A, including a fuel stop, about the same as the delays. And no having to get there early or waiting for baggage.
 
Midway not much better

Long story short, I got home at 2:30 AM Thursday. That was just under 12hrs from Whitman to home. Did better than that in a 172 going around weather several years ago...
 
Every time I fly commercial in the USA, I spend the whole time dumbfounded by the extent to which the country which invented the concept of commercial airlines has screwed it up so badly :)

There are no good customer experiences from airlines in the US.

My departure from ORD last night hung on a thread. I'd routed from Sydney to Chicago via SFO last week, but the flight out of Sydney was going to run late and I wasn't going to make the connection. Qantas kinda went, "No big deal, we'll fix it for you," and reissued the ticket on a new routing via LAX, because that was the next US-bound flight and would get me to Oshkosh sooner.

Meanwhile American Airlines had noticed that I never boarded the original missed connection out of SFO, and figured that since I hadn't made it to ORD as planned they should be able to sell my return seat to someone else, so when I arrived at the airport to check in last night the story was, "No, sir, you don't appear to have a booking."

The service agent seemed apologetic, and spent an hour on the phone trying to fix it, and eventually succeeded. I'm guessing they bumped someone I'll never meet who didn't have status, so "sorry," whoever you are :)

But while the agent was on the phone, and I was quietly stewing on the other side of the counter, all I could think about was the way that a US airline had managed to absolutely sabotage the good customer service experience that the non-US airline had previously delivered to solve my original problem, and I couldn't even be surprised that it happened.

Airlines just don't work like this in other parts of the world. The entire US airline industry has settled for inexplicable stifling mediocrity, and I don't know how you people put up with it.

I think you're the only country that makes people take off belts and shoes to get into an airport too. Weird choices.

Summary: Forget bush planes, the RV-15 should be a 2-seat low-wing taildragger with a pressurized cockpit that can cruise at 800mph at FL350 with 15 hours endurance. Get me one of those and I'll never use an airline again :)

- mark
 
Time to spare, go by air(line), more yet? Go by jet!

Unless it's a flight west of the Rockies, I can beat the airlines 9 times out of 10 with my RV...I despise flying commercial.
 
Every time I fly commercial in the USA, I spend the whole time dumbfounded by the extent to which the country which invented the concept of commercial airlines has screwed it up so badly :)

There are no good customer experiences from airlines in the US.

My departure from ORD last night hung on a thread. I'd routed from Sydney to Chicago via SFO last week, but the flight out of Sydney was going to run late and I wasn't going to make the connection. Qantas kinda went, "No big deal, we'll fix it for you," and reissued the ticket on a new routing via LAX, because that was the next US-bound flight and would get me to Oshkosh sooner.

Meanwhile American Airlines had noticed that I never boarded the original missed connection out of SFO, and figured that since I hadn't made it to ORD as planned they should be able to sell my return seat to someone else, so when I arrived at the airport to check in last night the story was, "No, sir, you don't appear to have a booking."

The service agent seemed apologetic, and spent an hour on the phone trying to fix it, and eventually succeeded. I'm guessing they bumped someone I'll never meet who didn't have status, so "sorry," whoever you are :)

But while the agent was on the phone, and I was quietly stewing on the other side of the counter, all I could think about was the way that a US airline had managed to absolutely sabotage the good customer service experience that the non-US airline had previously delivered to solve my original problem, and I couldn't even be surprised that it happened.

Airlines just don't work like this in other parts of the world. The entire US airline industry has settled for inexplicable stifling mediocrity, and I don't know how you people put up with it.

I think you're the only country that makes people take off belts and shoes to get into an airport too. Weird choices.

Summary: Forget bush planes, the RV-15 should be a 2-seat low-wing taildragger with a pressurized cockpit that can cruise at 800mph at FL350 with 15 hours endurance. Get me one of those and I'll never use an airline again :)

- mark

It sure sounds like it was Quantas that created your problem and they certainly knew that once they rebooked you they had to follow up on the US portion to insure you did not get canceled as a no show which is industry standard.
G
 
Your so right

I dont even know how that happened. I would have sworn I had typed Wittman. I even double checked the spelling with two t's befor typing that. I must have zoned out and let my hands do the thinking. Thank you for defending Mr Wittman's legacy.
 
I think a key to much of the above is ORD. Seems like every time I route through there something gets screwed up. So this year I flew to Air Venture thru DEN both ways, which seem like a strange routing to IAH, but it worked well both ways.

My Grumman Traveler is just a little too slow to fly to OSH from KSGR, but when I get my RV-10 done, look out!
 
I make no excuses for American Airlines management, they only care about the bottom line. However, in this case the booking issue was on qantas, they are a one world partner so their res system is tied to saber and they should have rebooked the pnr properly.
 
UScarriers

Two years ago Judie and I flew SAT, DFW, Honolulu, Fiji, Auckland, Christchurch, Auckland, Sydney, Dubai, Sydney, HNL, DFW, SAT. Unless we can get on a foreign carrier we may never fly the airlines again. Quantas was the best and Fiji was good to. After 50 plus years of airline travel, US airlines and TSA it just isn?t worth the hassle. Our RV6A took us to Alaska this summer just fine.
 
From arriving (early) at ORD to leaving SAV with my checked luggage was 10:50. Two hour flight on the airlines, five plus a fuel stop in the RV. Granted, I could not have penetrated the front with the thunderstorms.
 
Four Corners to Baton Rouge

For the past five years I've flown from somewhere in the Four Corners to Baton Rouge. Every year, other members of the group I'm part of drop me off at the local airport (Chinle, Gallup, Cortez, Winslow) and then drive to their departure airport in Albuquerque. I've made it home before them every year but one when I over-nighted in TX for my pax. They've probably been more rested when they arrived than me, but I still prefer my mode of transport. John
 
Last edited:
I've only ever flown to the mainland States once this time last year for a course. I was expecting all sorts of drams but oddly enough all went fairly smoothly internally & externally.
I came away with one image that I've never seen before, a 4 lane Fwy running right thru the guts of DFW!:) That place is HUGE! Our ATC could take a leaf out of the US get 'em in get 'em out fast thinking!:)

Do I like flying commercially as a pax? NOPE hate it! Seat 1A is always the best:)
 
Had one of the best flights from stuart fl to Hartford ct yesterday, 7.2 on the Hobbs, barely a bump under the wing, a few clouds at Jax and nyc, mostly light tail winds, no limit on baggage, half the price, great in flight food service, landed at duplin co nc to a totally new airport, runway, taxyways, fbo building, hangars, and got full service from a helpful young guy with a southern accent. ATC was as smooth as can be, usually you get good service when you sound like a pro ;). Now it’s time to get back to the airport and go see some Rv guys for bfast. Did we beat the airlines, yes in every way.
65673941-BA23-48-F0-8176-19323-A0-BE1-C3.png
CB5379-F0-98-BD-405-E-A7-D1-3-B2-E52-AC2244.jpg
 
Last edited:
While I'd much rather be flying myself most of the time, I feel the airlines do a pretty good job.

I've got about 2 million actual BIS (butt in seat- not FF miles) miles in the back of commercial airlines (and I am in my mid 40's now). I fly between 100 and 150 segments a year (and have done over 200). My primary airline is Alaska (love them!) and I've got about 1.4 million BIS miles with them and a good amount with Delta, KLM, British, American and a few others.

Given all these miles, I would say I have a pretty good data set and while I do get a rare cancellation and delays do happen but not nearly as much you'd think listening to some folks talk. I'd say I am on time 95%+ of the time.

I do live in Portland, but fly all over the US and some international too. Some airports (ORD being one) are definitely worse for delays.

OK- have to head out to PDX to catch a flight to Dallas (seriously). Probably flight #60-70 for the year.
 
Dan, I feel sorry for you.

I are an airline pilot and I?ve only done about 100 segments this year! I counted and I?ve only been PIC for 78 segments so the remaining flights are sitting in the back on a Company mandated deadhead or flying around the country earlier this spring looking for a new airplane.

In contrast, I?ve done 176 segments in my RV3 and Citabria.

I like my ratios!
 
Rod

Haha... it's really not that bad back here (on my flight currently). Flying this much does have some advantages as to how they treat you and I have nearly 2.5mm FF miles on Alaska alone which makes trips abroad (for fun) a little nicer up front.

Besides, all of this sitting in the back is what pays the bills to complete my 7A soon (waiting on new nose gear/mount) so maybe I can have a ratio more like yours.

dan
 
As I made my way to Airventure from NYC this year, encountering numerous delays, I could not help wondering why we don't have a viable high speed rail system for the USA...
 
I think a key to much of the above is ORD. Seems like every time I route through there something gets screwed up. So this year I flew to Air Venture thru DEN both ways, which seem like a strange routing to IAH, but it worked well both ways.

My Grumman Traveler is just a little too slow to fly to OSH from KSGR, but when I get my RV-10 done, look out!

I spent a career in s/w sales, travelling a minimum of once every two weeks, usually more. Being based out of Chicago, I can assure you that ORD is one of the very worst places to travel to or from. They will close for almost no reason and ATC, since the change in the early 2000's (centralized clearance control), is down right frustrating. I can remember one flight to ORD, leaving SFO at 7:00 PM, due into ORD around 1:30 AM. They gave us a 2 hour ground hold sighting weather at ORD. Come on folks- how much traffic saturation were you expecting at 2:00 AM. Near the end, a solid 1/3 of my return flights had a ground hold of at least 30 minutes.

Being a hub for both UA and AA, means you really feel the pain from poor execuation in their operations centers. In my opinion, they are the bulk of the problem seen at ORD. Sure ATC throws them a lot of curve balls, but they just can't seem to find a way to deal with it. If you contrast it to Southwest, it is night and day. They figured it out. That said, they don't have to deal with the inefficiencies of a hub based system. In the above example, we arrived at 3:00 AM and sat on the plane for another 2 hours becuase operations could find someone to move the jet bridge into position at that hour.

Larry
 
Last edited:
So think of how I feel.

I arrive at JFK to leave for Manchester England around 7pm. Storms, busy, what do we do ? Well, I load 4 tons extra fuel so I don't need to worry too much. We get loaded, taxi on one, wait around 30 mins in the queue to leave, start the other and go.

Next time, no weather but still busy.....

Get ready to push and ask how many at the hold - 5.... wtf :eek:

Now we are packing fuel, get off in 20 mins and get home 1 hour early.

It works both ways, you get delayed but we have to make sensible decisions based on local facts and how much duty time we have and how much gas we want to take.

Anyhow..... retiring at Christmas so I can concentrate on building :D
 
dreed, and I just wonder is it possible to make procedure of on-boarding process more comfortable. As well as their service in airports. The one of the most important things for me is the cost of air flight tickets. And when I've discovered this website ( here - https://airbusinessclass.com/ ), I've realized that nary other site can suggest cheaper tickets than this service. That's why I can highly recommend it.
 
Last edited:
Experience

We have found Asiana and Luftansa, to be very good. British Airlines ok. Air France the worst. Northwest (are they still in business?) to be unbelievably bad. SW is ok.
 
Love the airline bashing... NOT

Everyone seems to loves the Middle East Three (Qatar, Emirates and Etihad). These sovereign fund airlines have virtually unlimited resources and are allowed discriminatory hiring practices. So if you are fat, ugly, old - you won't get hired (certainly as a flight attendant).

U.S. airlines are publicly held companies and are required to follow Local, State and Federal rules. They also answer to the stockholders.

So to those that would like to see the ME3 granted fifth freedom rights within the U.S. - I say be careful what you wish for. Same for many of the other flag carriers that are controlled/funded by their respective countries.

And just FYI, Delta and Northwest merged in October 2008 and for the past several years, has been the world's most awarded U.S. flag carrier.
 
The American flying public has gotten exactly what we asked for; cheap fares. This of course means cram more seats in the planes, fill all seats, etc.

After deregulation (1978 as I recall) the traveling public bought tickets by price and not service. Several new entrant airlines tried to sell bigger seats, better service and other comforts and they are no longer in business.
 
I think the flying public deserves some of the blame too. While I wasn't around in 1978 (I was, but was a very little guy), I've got to imagine there were fewer people flying and people were more respectful.

I see people treat the counter folks horribly, rude to flight attendants, other pax etc. People want first class service for SW prices. Lots of huge bags stuff to the brim where they won't fit in an overheard but of course they put their second bag up there too so no one has space. Of course getting out of the aisle so people can pass is not even a thought for many of these folks. Don't get me started on the unloading procedure...

When I talk to the crews they say the folks that fly 1-4 times every couple of years are the worst, while the frequent travelers generally are the most pleasant and least amount of headache- even when they are in the back.

I flew ~100 flights last year and a little over 100K butt in seat miles in the back this year and over 2 million miles in the back over the last 20 years. I'd say for the most part my experiences are good with most of the domestics and international airlines I fly. Alaska is by far (IMO) the best domestic, Delta is getting better again after a period of sucking bad. I avoid UA and American whenever possible because of the crews in back- not getting there on time, etc.

That said- I rarely have big delays on any of them and when we do, it's usually weather or mechanical and that happens to all of us.

PS- I'd prefer to be in the left seat of my plane any day
 
I'd rather have my throat slit.

I have a thirty seven year career as a KC-135 boom operator and about the same # as a pilot so, yes, I'm a bit spoiled. But, I've made eighteen trips from Topeka to French Valley, California in two different homebuilts and the airlines can't come close to comfort, convenience or time. Plus, I can eat all the dried stale nasty mustard tainted pretzels I want without having them thrown at me and at the same time wash them down with all the soft drinks/water I want. I don't have my knees crammed up over my ears. Yes, I can actually stretch out my legs. I don't have some snot nosed kid leaning over the forward seat staring at me the entire flight. I don't have his stupid little brother behind me kicking the back of my seat. I can take all the luggage I want without add on charges. Heck, I even know where they are when I land. I can yell at the stewardess/wife, (hrmphh - flight attendant) all I want without being thrown off the airplane. I can look out of the left side, right side, aft, front window all I want. I can carry a bazooka, high power rifle, shot gun, bb gun, bow and arrow, hunting knife, pocket knife and letter opener. I can get on and off when I want. I can get in, take off and land without first having some number shoved at me. There's no thigh rubbing with some unknown fat sweaty guy seated next to me. In fact, if I don't like my travel companion, out they go.
I fricking hate the airlines. Please do NOT get me started.
 
Don't mince words Steve; tell us how you really feel! ;-)

-Marc

I have a thirty seven year career as a KC-135 boom operator and about the same # as a pilot so, yes, I'm a bit spoiled. But, I've made eighteen trips from Topeka to French Valley, California in two different homebuilts and the airlines can't come close to comfort, convenience or time. Plus, I can eat all the dried stale nasty mustard tainted pretzels I want without having them thrown at me and at the same time wash them down with all the soft drinks/water I want. I don't have my knees crammed up over my ears. Yes, I can actually stretch out my legs. I don't have some snot nosed kid leaning over the forward seat staring at me the entire flight. I don't have his stupid little brother behind me kicking the back of my seat. I can take all the luggage I want without add on charges. Heck, I even know where they are when I land. I can yell at the stewardess/wife, (hrmphh - flight attendant) all I want without being thrown off the airplane. I can look out of the left side, right side, aft, front window all I want. I can carry a bazooka, high power rifle, shot gun, bb gun, bow and arrow, hunting knife, pocket knife and letter opener. I can get on and off when I want. I can get in, take off and land without first having some number shoved at me. There's no thigh rubbing with some unknown fat sweaty guy seated next to me. In fact, if I don't like my travel companion, out they go.
I fricking hate the airlines. Please do NOT get me started.
 
I have a thirty seven year career as a KC-135 boom operator and about the same # as a pilot so, yes, I'm a bit spoiled. But, I've made eighteen trips from Topeka to French Valley, California in two different homebuilts and the airlines can't come close to comfort, convenience or time. Plus, I can eat all the dried stale nasty mustard tainted pretzels I want without having them thrown at me and at the same time wash them down with all the soft drinks/water I want. I don't have my knees crammed up over my ears. Yes, I can actually stretch out my legs. I don't have some snot nosed kid leaning over the forward seat staring at me the entire flight. I don't have his stupid little brother behind me kicking the back of my seat. I can take all the luggage I want without add on charges. Heck, I even know where they are when I land. I can yell at the stewardess/wife, (hrmphh - flight attendant) all I want without being thrown off the airplane. I can look out of the left side, right side, aft, front window all I want. I can carry a bazooka, high power rifle, shot gun, bb gun, bow and arrow, hunting knife, pocket knife and letter opener. I can get on and off when I want. I can get in, take off and land without first having some number shoved at me. There's no thigh rubbing with some unknown fat sweaty guy seated next to me. In fact, if I don't like my travel companion, out they go.
I fricking hate the airlines. Please do NOT get me started.

Excellent diatribe! You're now well in lead for the grand prize, one week of non-stop airline flights, including a daily long haul flight of at least ten hours! Maximum time allowed on the ground between flights is 90 minutes...
 
If your flights are on time, the weather is good, you make all all your connections, TSA doesn't select you for a proctology exam, the passengers and crew are all in good moods, at BEST, flying commercially is a horrible experience!
 
If your flights are on time, the weather is good, you make all all your connections, TSA doesn't select you for a proctology exam, the passengers and crew are all in good moods, at BEST, flying commercially is a horrible experience!

Hmmm, that isn't the vibe I get when I am at work...in general, most folks don't seem to have these horrible attitudes towards flying commercial. Sure, there are bad days but I see an awful lot of pretty happy people getting on and off of the loaded to capacity aircraft...
 
Hmmm, that isn't the vibe I get when I am at work...in general, most folks don't seem to have these horrible attitudes towards flying commercial. Sure, there are bad days but I see an awful lot of pretty happy people getting on and off of the loaded to capacity aircraft...

"Most folks" don't know how bad they have it - they've never experienced private aviation.

Just because you've never seen a better way to do it, doesn't mean your current way is a good one...
 
Last edited:
Changing times

In the early 70?s, when I entered the workforce as an engineer, passengers actually took pride in the way they looked. Many men wore suits and ties, and ladies dressed well. By the 80?s things started going downhill. When I was young, I looked forward to flying to DFW or LAX from my home base of Charlotte. By the time I retired last February, I actually avoided travel involving the airlines.

Maybe these less enjoyable passenger experiences through the years were part of the rationale for me getting my PPL in 1984 and getting interested in homebuilding in 1992.
 
"Most folks" don't know how bad they have it - they've never experienced private aviation.

Just because you've never seen a better way to do it, doesn't mean you're current way is a good one...

Did you ever think that maybe the experience SEEMS worse due to the poor attitude and expectations?...just sayin'...you know, self fulfilling prophecy and all...

Oh, boy...the last time I used that second statement on this forum, I got FLAMED!!
 
Did you ever think that maybe the experience SEEMS worse due to the poor attitude and expectations?...just sayin'...you know, self fulfilling prophecy and all...

Oh, boy...the last time I used that second statement on this forum, I got FLAMED!!

Perhaps - but that leads to circular logic, and either way you want to look at it the underlying theme remains the same - airline travel sucks today.
 
We have met the enemy, and he is us-Pogo

I remember 1960. My pregnant mother, with 6 kids in tow, led us aboard a commercial airliner to rejoin my father, who was already working in his new job in a new state. With our coach tickets, the airline put us in our own private cabin (!), probably to keep us kids from annoying others. There was free food and sodas. Can you imagine that happening today? Of course this was pre-deregulation, and, adjusted for inflation, coach tickets were more expensive than they are today. A few airlines have attempted to offer a pleasant experience, in return for higher ticket prices; they went bankrupt. Despite all the complaints, most people vote with their pocketbooks, and will put up with anything in return for money saved.
Edit:
I agree with an earlier post, Air France is the absolute worst. I will never again book them.
 
Last edited:
Steve Wittman

Thank you for correcting the spelling, I get tired of doing that.
The picture of Steve measuring the wing of Little Bonzo was likely taken by Dr. Aaron King. Aaron owned the prototype Wittman Tailwind for five years.
The Tailwind was designed to be a one off personal airplane. After overwhelming requests for plans, Steve started selling plans around 1955. The Tailwind first flew in Jan 1953, the same year and month as EAA's first meeting. In Dec 1953 the Tailwind became the first EAB airplane certified to carry a passenger. For 15 years the Tailwind was the dominant two place EAB airplane. It played a huge role in the early success of EAA.
 
Remembering Steve Wittman

The first airplane donated to EAA when they were still in Milwaukee area was Steve's second racer-Big Bonzo. Big Bonzo and Little Bonzo "fly" side by side in the air racing section of EAA Museum. next to the airplanes is a large display of the air racing trophies that Steve won.
On the other side of the Pioneer Airport is the Wittman Hangar. In that hangar are Tailwind #1, Buttercup and the V Witt Racer, as well as a replica of Steve's first homebuilt, the Hardly Ableson.
In the old terminal building Steve's Oldsmobile V8 powered Tailwind hangs from the ceiling.
In 1947 Steve and Bill Brennand rebuilt the remains of Steves first racer, built in 1931. This airplane was renamed Buster and with Brennand as pilot won two of the three Goodyear sponsored races at Cleveland. Buster became the first homebuilt airplane donated to the then Smithsonian in 1954. Buster, flown by Bill Brennand ,competed in 50 races and won half of them.
 
I have demonstrated the ability to get from my front door in Mojave to my buddy's front door in the DFW area in under 6 hours with the Rocket (and that includes a fuel stop). That's faster than the airlines could do. Of course it helps that there are airparks at each end of the trip, but that's why we live on airparks.
 
In the early 70?s, when I entered the workforce as an engineer, passengers actually took pride in the way they looked. Many men wore suits and ties, and ladies dressed well. By the 80?s things started going downhill.

When we took a 6th grade class trip to DC in the mid 80's our teacher / chaperone insisted that we all dress appropriately for the airline flight. Coat and tie for the boys.

I remember well flying Eastern Airlines with mom and dad, my brother and I always got to go up to the cockpit where the pilots would show us the "machine guns" (stick shaker) and we'd get our own set of wings.
 
travel

"...Perhaps - but that leads to circular logic, and either way you want to look at it the underlying theme remains the same - airline travel sucks today..."

...and the root cause of that has been previously posted...the airlines gave the public exactly what it wanted...
 
I fly commercial about 30-40 legs a year. I am reasonably satisfied with the service - but Im willing to pay to fly in the good seats and poor meals. The TSC crapola isnt as bad with pre-check and a known traveler number. Most of my flights are at least half way across the country so it is still faster to go commercial and I can work or relax on the flight.

But..I can not wait to get my plane certified and get the chance to do speed tests with the airlines!
 
More and more non-aviation professionals tell me if their business destination is within a 10 hour drive, they prefer to drive than deal with the airlines. One friend even pushed that out to 12 hours.

That tells me the airlines are leaving a lot of reoccurring business on the table.
 
This past year, I flew more commercial flights (5 or 6) than probably the previous 20 years combined.
I really don't think, or feel I had a bad or unexpected experience on any of them. Matter-of-fact, I sort of had fun and enjoyed interacting with the other passengers. One lady:)confused:) got a little upset when I smashed her hat, along with her other 3 bags, in the overhead. Everyone else just laughed about it.:D
 
Back
Top