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Accurate Ceiling?

Piggyboy343

I'm New Here
Ok, I'm still here lurking.. should finish my private pilot here in a month or so then it's off plane shopping. I like the Vans RV-12, CSA Sportcruiser and Bristell and I go back and forth between them. One thing that I read different numbers on is the ceiling on the RV-12 with the 912. I see 12,000, 13,200 and have even seen 19,000 even with the 912IS engine.

The useful load is fine and seems like it will work out, I'll be flying by myself most of the time anyway. It'll take a full fuel load, 2 adults and 50 lbs of bags with some to spare which is nice.

I live in Colorado (4500 ft) and sometimes the density altitude is 8500-9000 ft with the heat and that has me worried about performance and that's the only thing I'm a little worried about. I've been training on a 172 with 180 HP fuel injection and it climbs slow (300-400fpm) on 95-100 degree days. I know that the HP per pound for the Vans is better than the Cessna I'm flying but I'm hoping that the Vans isn't just a 'sea level' plane. There's plenty out there and I'm looking constantly for 'the one'. I appreciate any help/input or advice you want to throw my way.

Thanks again!!
 
For what it's worth... Two years ago we have had a E-LSA RV-12 with 912ULS up to 14,500 MSL with two 190# folks on board. Don't remember particulars...
 
We live at 4500’ at our Nevada airpark, and my neighbor is regularly flying his RV-12 two-up in just about any temperature conditions. I did the five-hour phase 1 on it, in the summer, and it performed fine.

Paul
 
I just tossed the latest AOPA rag which had an article on the -12 and its robustness as a trainer. I don't have numbers and this is only anecdotal, but I know of a -12 in AZ that flies up in this area no problem - though I don't know if he is usually solo or not. He said it feels just like any other RV. Our mountains go up near 12.5K and the DA at our 7000 elevation airport on a summer day can go over 13K.

I do remember the AOPA article mentioning the -12 getting a bit tossed in turbulence, but he mentioned flying out of Phoenix, so he's probably talking about mountain winds, which toss anything around. I find my -6A a bit more twitchy than a C-182, but it is also more responsive when I go to make corrections. Also, it's what you're used to. I was terrified of the bumps when I moved from CA flying to Flagstaff, but now I don't notice it much. The difference was highlighted for me when a friend and I flew a Cherokee to ACSpruce West. As we neared the pass at Los Banos, local pireps were for moderate turbulence, so we slowed down and ... nothing much ... What was moderate for them was just a normal afternoon in Flagstaff.

Frankly, I'm hoping to build my own -12 after I finally get the -10 done, and replace the -6A with it as my local flyer.
 
As I recall I once saw about 13,200 DA in Cruise a couple of summers ago here in AZ. Might have got some more if I’d tried, but it was losing enthusiasm fast for climbing. I think the indicated altitude was 11,500.
 
Options... buy a light bird, one that sits at 750 to 753# on the scales, and lacks paint.

My friend and I have flown at gross, when the fuel tank was full, to KHND near Las Vegas, late May at 9500 ft. Climb rate was still 300 -350 fpm.

I am certain if my 250# as a passenger was offloaded, 550 to 650 fpm would probably be possible.

Temps were 35C in Henderson, NV when we took off and fiew back to Barstow/Dagget, CA for fuel.

My only worries would be if you fly close to max gross, keep an eye on your oil temps while climbing and do your best to slow down and keep them in the green, not the yellow, at 230 F +. Flying solo, this doesn't seem to be a problem.

The more expensive option would be to buy a stock built E-LSA and then spend the big $$$ and put a 914 UL 115HP Turbo Rotax motor in your RV-12. You'll probably never be lacking for climb rate in CO with that set up. Or build your own RV-12 E-AB and put the 914 UL in it, from the start. Or buy a Big Bore HP kit from Zipper Big Bore, in Elko, NV. 115 HP for about $5000 installed. All it takes is time and money, if you want it, badly enough.
 
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Can't speak for the ULS but the 12 with the iS does very well in the mountains. I usually cruise at 11500 but getting to 13500 is no problem.
 
I recently flew my -12 from CA to WI and back. My return took me through southern Wyoming / northern Colorado, Utah and Nevada. I had a TurtlePac ferry tank on the passenger seat to extend my range that when full weighs about as much as a standard passenger. At roughly gross I got her up to 12,500' (14,500 DA) in some areas where the height of the terrain let me do it under Sport Pilot rules. She didn't want to go much higher than that though. I regularly fly comfortably at 8500/9500'.

I had no trouble taking off from high DA airports (like 9000') during that trip but she definitely uses more runway than I'm used to.
 
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I've own(ed) a 2015 RV-12 SLSA and now a 2020 RV-12 Is and I was still climbing at 14,500 where I leveled off. Not at full gross weight however. The 912 iS seems to climb MUCH better at higher altitudes than the 912 ULS in an RV-12.
 
The difference is the ability of the FADEC control on the iS engine, to do a better job of adjusting mixture for best power at higher altitudes, than the mechanically self compensating carbs on the ULS engine is able to do
 
My RV-12 was first flown in 2015. It has a 912ULS. This flight was yesterday 10/20/2020. It is not my normal cruise, I only went up this high to see what she could do.
I did not reset the barometric altimeter from where I took off, you will see the GPS altitude (14749') is different from the barometric (14100'), The GPS is probably the accurate one. Also note the density altitude (16043'), that's where the airplane was actually thinking it was at.
For all the "oxygen" comments, don't......., please stay on topic.

50515228162_1f6a718dcd_c.jpg
 
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Did you fly over San Jacincto mtn? That's impressive... was the throttle to the wall and only making 4990 rpm?

It's good to see some hours building up on these RV-12s Hobbs meters.
 
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It averaged 5000 RPM @ WOT.
Most normally aspirated engines don't make full power at high altitude.
High altitude = less oxygen = less fuel = less power.
 
It averaged 5000 RPM @ WOT.
Most normally aspirated engines don't make full power at high altitude.
High altitude = less oxygen = less fuel = less power.

True, but I have never seen the RPM run that low on an RV-12 at even 14,000 ft.
You must have a prop pitch that is rather course compared to most.
 
The difference is the ability of the FADEC control on the iS engine, to do a better job of adjusting mixture for best power at higher altitudes, than the mechanically self compensating carbs on the ULS engine is able to do

It was actually 16000 but maybe there is still a prop pitch issue. I will get some screen shots today in different situations maybe that will help sort it out.
 
Scott,
What do you think of these numbers? I just flew this today, weather and temp very close to the same flight above.
Run up on ground at 1570’, WOT 5040rpm
Climbing through 3400’, 77kts, WOT, 5130rpm
Level at 7500’, 110kts, WOT, 5700rpm
 
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Scott,
What do you think of these numbers? I just flew this today, weather and temp very close to the same flight above.
Run up on ground at 1570’, WOT 5040rpm
Climbing through 3400’, 77kts, WOT, 5130rpm
Level at 7500’, 110kts, WOT, 5700rpm

Barometric pressure at airport on take off? 2995?
Air Temp? 23-25C
 
If that is a question I missed the intent.

I've noticed barometric pressure and temps have an effect on the rpm's I get on takeoff and 75 kt climb out rate. 5150 to 5220 rpms at 75 kts. I also seem to gain rpm on hot days with higher barometric pressure.... 34C and 30.17 at 75 kts 5210 rpm. YMMV
 
I suspect there are many variables. One being oil temp, probably an optimum temp where friction is lowest. That can vary day to day depending how much time you spend on the ground before takeoff.
 
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